Heavy vibration/ overheating

[bfr]

I am in the process of trying to resurrect a 1930 that suffered a catastrophic engine failure.
Some specifics about the "new" motor, it has...
-new head gasket
-new timing gear
-carb from the old motor setup (refreshed using the procedure in Paul Moller's book)
-distributor from old motor converted to electronic ignition (timing set as outlined in Les Andrews' book)

The car does run, but
-It will only idle at a speed well above normal
-it seems to take a long time to warm up (idle without a lot of throttle manipulation)
-It is running rough. (Whole car vibrates)
-it over heats when driven (hasn't been driven more than 1/2 of a mile)

And...

-I think it is only running on two cylinders (2&3)
It is getting spark to all four plugs, but disconnecting the 1st and 4th spark plug leads does not affect the way the engine is running. It will keep running if I remove either the second or third lead (but obviously not both).

Here are my questions...
Is it possible for the timing to be 90 degrees off? 180 degrees? (And the car still run?)
Am I likely to damage anything if I intentionally set the timing off by 90*, 180* , 270* to see if it is off by that much?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'll tell you about your last question. When I was in 7th grade I had a 1950 Studebaker with the body cut off to use on the back 40. My friend had a 1952 Pontiac straight eight for his field car. I R&R the head to paint it silver on my Stude, and Harry pulled all the plug wires off his to paint his head silver. He didn't know the plug wires had a special order when he put them back on. He put the plug wires on and tried to start the engine. The top of the piston was blown into the oil pan and the resulting pressure blew the oil fill cap off with enough pressure to put a dent in the open hood and go through the side of the barn.

In 11th grade my neighbor thought it would be funny to swap plug wires on my 55 Chevy with a 235. That resulted in knocking out a rod bearing on the engine I had just overhauled a few months before.

Chances are the overheating is caused by bad timing, but set it correctly and don't just wildly try any old setting.

[CWPASADENA]

Are you using a GOOD TDC mark and a timing light to set timing or are you trying to use the timing pin and the dimple in the timing gear?

I do not think you can accurately set timing with electronic ignition unless you have a GOOD CORRECT top dead center mark and a timing light.

Also, are you using an original type distributor cap or are you using a later style cap with individual ignition wires. If you have the two wires crossed for #1 and #4 cylinders, the engine will run on the center two cylinders only.

I suspect however, it is most likely incorrect timing as Tom has already stated.

I did have an engine one time that ran poorly and overheated only to find the cam timing was off by 2 teeth however, it was reasonable smooth, it just did not have any power at all and idled poorly.

My opinion,

Chris W.

[daveymc29]

I'm expert, so take this for what it has cost you,in timing my car, I remove the plugs and hand crank to get the distributor rotor pointing in the general direction of the number one spark lead. I do this by removing the coil wire and the distributor cap, leaving the body in place. When the rotor is close to number one and hasn't yet gotten to it, I remove the timing pin and insert the pointed end back into the hole to feel for the mark. I turn the crank very cautiously until the pin just moves and then I look into the timing pin hole with a mirror and a flashlight to verify I am indeed lined up with the timing mark (Indent in the timing gear) and it is centered in the timing pin hole. Then I set the distributor cam to just be at the point of opening (creating a spark at the points with the key on, fully retarded.) This gets me as close as I can get to perfect. When your machine is timed correctly you can notice a real difference in the rpm by moving the advance lever. If there is no difference, or very little, do it over again until the rpm's pick up and the engine runs smoother with a bit of advance, only two or three notches should do something to change the speed and sound of the engine, good luck if you follow this. Since mine is a driver, I put a couple of paint marks one on the pulley and one or two else where to line up the correct location, so I can crank to the timing mark the next time I need to.

[daveymc29]

That should be "NO" expert, sorry!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

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When you reset the timing, was it pretty close?(originally) re check your compression, just to be sure it's good.
Rereading your post, it does sound timing related. Maybe your gear is off a tooth. Can you shine a light in the pin hole when the dimple is there, and look at the alignment dot to verify correct positioning? Tom Wesenburg has posted a picture showing what the correct alignment looks like. Just keep eliminating the potential solutions one at a time.

[1931 flamingo]

As Chuck says AND you also may have a vacuum leak. JMO
Paul in CT

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here's the picture of where the rotor should be when the timing is TDC. This is when the timing pin just drops into the dimple in the cam gear.

[bfr]

Thanks for the quick responses!

[tbirdtbird]

what was the catastrophic failure?

[bfr]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

Are you using a GOOD TDC mark and a timing light to set timing or are you trying to use the timing pin and the dimple in the timing gear?

I do not think you can accurately set timing with electronic ignition unless you have a GOOD CORRECT top dead center mark and a timing light.

I am currently using the dimple/pin method. I feel very good about the pin/ dimple syncing up with TDC on cylinder one, but since I did remove and replace the timing gear it is quite possible the gear/cam may be off by a tooth or two.

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

Also, are you using an original type distributor cap or are you using a later style cap with individual ignition wires. If you have the two wires crossed for #1 and #4 cylinders, the engine will run on the center two cylinders only.

Original Style cap

[bfr]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

what was the catastrophic failure?

Cylinder 2 connecting rod ventilated the block (both sides), the oil pan, and even the coolant pipe that sits between the lower radiator hoses. You can literally see through the motor from side to side.

[tbirdtbird]

are there holes drilled in the bottom of the dipper tray? If so they should be welded up

[Brentwood Bob]

When you tighten the distributor cam (in #4 above) you will have a little play in the shaft due to the driver gear driven off the cam. As the cam is turning clockwise all the slop in the gear is gone. So when timed correctly, with the retard lever all the way up, the points are just ready to open with all the play taken out.
Marco's web site explains this, but it is simplified by Davey above(#4).
Pull the #1 spark plug to verify that you are at top dead center with both valves closed and the timing pin in the notch of the big gear. You may need to remove the timing gear front cover to see if the notch is correct with the mark on the face of the cam's metal gear.
Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

The rotor turns counter clockwise, so you want any freeplay on the leading side of the rotor. In other words lightly try to turn the rotor clockwise to put the freeplay on the leading side.

[tbirdtbird]

he has bigger problems than timing

Is it possible for the timing to be 90 degrees off? 180 degrees? (And the car still run?). No.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with tbird. I'd start with a compression check.

[daveymc29]

Sounds to me like it is time to find a better block. Rebuild it and then on to timing and compression tests, etc.