Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I just received a PM tipping me off to what appears from pictures to be an even higher flow thermostat than the Stant stat that I have previously found to be the highest flow of any that I've studied. This one is a MotoRad High Flow Thermostat (their part # 2003-195) that also fits the 1990 Subaru Justy and the Ford 59A engines like the Stant 14157 does. I would probably be interested in them if they weren't 195°. For any that likes running their 59A that hot it looks like the best thermostat I've seen so far.

Here are the two thermostats side by side. The Stant on the left and the MotoRad on the right. What do you think?

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...psfaysetgc.jpg

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

170?

Also looks like new one has three on top & stant two - three would restrict flow more than two - no?

Looks like you have your work cut out for you:)

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

http://www.carid.com/motorad/high-fl...-2003-195.html

The link shows they flow 56 GPM and open at 195 degrees. Are you going to measure the actual flow and if so how? I got a pair of 36 pumps from Skip, I don't know what they are rated at. I am curious what you discover.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

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Look close at the size of the center core.












.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I just googled this part # 2003-180 thermostat and I got pics of the same thermostat rated at 180.

https://www.google.com/search?q=part...w=1280&bih=899

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

That's cool. I might be persuaded to run at 180°.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Googling MotoRad 2003-170 didn't come up with anything. Darn, that would have been my favorite.

I had that same thought that the three wide braces may cut into the flow more than the two skinny ones on the Stant even though the overall diameter of the valve opening looks bigger on the MotoRad. I'd have to measure and calculate the size of the MotoRad's three openings and compare their total to the Stant total opening. Could be sixes.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Wonder why the differences in pricing for same thermostat?

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Here's their video about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhH7RkIH8c

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Is this flow tested with the thermostat setting in a tube like the neck of the head----if the disc is too large the area between the neck in the head and the disc could be the flow limit

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Motorad definition of hi flow

http://www.motoradusa.com/thermostats.aspx



R

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

According to a 2013 thread on the Barn Skip's pumps with the high speed impeller flow about 22 GPM. If that is true what is the advantage of a stat that flows 56 GPM? Assuming the stat functions properly it would seem that the water pump is the restriction to a higher flow rate in the cooling system and not the stat.

"Foxy, Skips email is [email protected] Phone # AM 1-941-637-6698 PM 1-941-505-9085
Lucky, The 37 to 53 pumps all get the turbine impellers that increase the flow of each pump from 65 gallons in 5 minutes to 110 each. G.M."

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Why do you want more flow? From what I've learned about cooling systems you want restriction in the flow.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Do you really believe a 55 gallon drum of water could be forced through
a hole the size of the opening in any of the thermostats shown with stock
Ford pumps that are just paddle wheels spinning in water?? When the
stock pumps feel a restriction they just sit there spinning their wheels
and stirring up air. Skips pumps with larger impellers deliver more water
and less air. The turbine type impeller is set in a 22 degree seat with
a controlled gap and very little air and slippage occur. The reported
improved cooling over the past 20 years confirm the results. G.M.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Mike, There are three things that cool the engine. The size and amount
of coolant in the system. The amount of coolant flowing through the
system. And the amount of air flowing through the fins of the radiator.
If any one of these is improved a little better cooling is noticed. If all
all are improved then the engines will run cool. I have performed cooling
tests on flatheads for many years in SW Florida in temperatures above
90 degrees. I have a 39 P/U that was run at a National Ford meet in
Maryland in about 2004 for over 2 hours at a fast idle with the outside
temperature over 100 degrees and never got over 180. When raced
slightly the temperature dropped a few degrees. This truck was fitted
with Skips pumps, 6 blade industrial fan, standard radiator, 4 lb
pressure cap and a shroud. Temperatures were taken every 10 minutes
on the water outlets of the heads and recorded. Don't believe water
has to stay in the radiator to cool it, that will just make it hotter. G.M.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

G.M. I have a Meziere 300 electric water pump on a supercharged Hemi that the manufacturer claims will flow 55 GPM. With this pump there would be a need for a stat that flows 56 GPM to minimize the potential for cavitation. My point in this discussion is there is no apparent need for a stat that flows 56 GPM when the best the pumps can do is 22 GPM. My observation is in no way a discredit to Skips pumps or his design. In fact I'm using them on the tonner, but they are in fact the limiting factor for coolant flow on my flathead. As an aside what RPM did Skip use to establish the flow data you provided (110 Gal in 5 minutes) in that thread? Just curious.
Les Williams

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I would also like to know what engine it was pumping through, and what thermostats were in the engine that they were pumping through.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Some additional info from Stant.
"The Stant Superstat has the highest flow of any thermostat in the aftermarket."
"A thermostat starts to open at the rated temperature +/- 2 degrees F. The thermostat is fully open at 15 to 20 degrees F above the rated temperature." That means the Stant 14157 starts to open at 170 and is fully open at 185-190 degrees.
Craig, I sent another PM before finding your new thread.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

The water pump test machine Skip uses runs at about 2,000 RPM's.
How do you figure Skips pumps limit your cooling??? G.M.
Email my I'd like to discuss it. [email protected]

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Craig, your PM box is full.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Thanks. I just emptied it.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I just talked to Skip. (941-505-9085) He said all pumps are and have been tested on an independent test machine that does not pump through an engine nor thermostats. All flow measurements are and have been on that machine and do not reflect flow rate through an engine. He has never flow tested his pumps in an engine nor pumping through thermostats. That's probably why he does not recommend using them with thermostats.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I am no flathead expert by any means. New to them in fact.
However I have experienced too much flow being not necessarily a good think. I have had a couple vehicles over the years that were running hot. Turns out there was no thermostats in them and the water was flowing to quickly through the radiator to transfer enough heat.
After installing thermostats which slowed the flow down they ran great and no longer ran hot.
Flatheads different?

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Looks like we need a complete test setup in an environmental chamber.
I plan to pump with my 1940 stock flathead fire engine (Stant 14157 thermostats, 50/50 coolant) in early June. We can hope for a nice hot day. I pumped for 2 hours on a 70-degree day last September and the Sunpro temp gauge stayed around 160. That would indicate that the thermostats did not open or were just slightly open. I tested them and the gauge before installation against my instant read thermometer on the stove.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

what Mr Mitchel (G.M.) normally FAILS to tell you every time he brags about his '39 pick up, is that on his '39 pick up he has a full radiator shroud (that will flow air through the ENTIRE radiator core) and that he has a modified industrial high flow fan (that flows a higher volume of air, than a stock fan, through the ENTIRE radiator core) and so the fast idle test is probably equivalent of driving at 20 or so MPH that produces the cooling effects with a stock fan and no shroud..

now, how many of us have the shroud and high volume fans on our cars when we test for cooling problems? so is his "fast idle cooling test on his '39 PU" a real world test that is applicable to any other people who are attempting to resolve cooling issues? doubtful.

I ran skips pumps on my '41 pickup and found all driving above 20 MPH or so to be fine, but when idling in traffic the motor heated up just as it did with stock pumps. i had stock fan and no shroud on the truck. i found did Skips pumps to be a very high quality product, but without the benefits of the shroud and high volume fan, the pumps provided no more low speed and idling relief from a set of stock pumps.

increased air flow (with the shroud and high volume fan) is the key to his '39 pick up. Skips also recommends no thermostats so as far as high volume skips pumps go, a high volume thermostat is pretty much a moot point....

these are just my thoughts and experiences in regards to the ongoing cooling challenge of our flatheads. i do feel that in a stock environment, a high volume thermostat should have more benefit than having no thermostats at all...

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

I believe G.M. mentioned a six-blade industrial fan in post 15.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Also a shroud.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

The reason for that is because the "turbine" impeller on Skips pumps is a "multiflow" design that, when compared to the modern "centrifugal" design, is like comparing a room oscillating fan to a centrifugal fan like is in all furnaces, air conditioners, auto heater/air conditioners, etc. The multiflow design, like the room fan blades, can move a lot of air provided there is no resistance. But, with any resistance, that style can not push through the resistance like a centrifugal fan can push through ducts in a house, etc. For full discussion and explanation of the physics of the multiflow vs. centrifugal impeller go here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106054

For any that think I somehow have a "horse in the race" on this issue just read the thread that I referenced. I began the investigation contained in that thread with a totally open mind trying to find a better water pump and learned much about the differences between the different kinds and have shared them for the benefit of others that may be interested in them. If Skip's pumps had ever been tested pushing water through an engine and thermostat in comparison to modern centrifugal design pumps I'd have much more confidence in the claims of their advantages over other pumps. But, my belief, understanding the physics of the two types of impellers, is that, although Skips impellers most definitely push more water than the other type of pump in the only test that he's ever done - just pushing water through a hose from one container to another, they are not, in fact, as efficient as the centrifugal impellers in pushing water through the resistance of the small engine block passages and thermostat. Skip must have discovered that fact at some point as he does not recommend the use of thermostats with his pumps.

I know a lot of folks have bought Skips pumps and swear by them and I'm glad they're happy with them and hope they continue to be. I am just as happy with my modern centrifugal pump with the ball bearings in place of the bushings of the old style pump that Skip rebuilds and plan on continuing that happiness. :)

Just my 2¢

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Thanks for the explanation Professor. I have never bought the theory myself. Just doesn't make sense that the faster you run water through the radiator, the cooler it gets.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

If the coolant stays in the radiator longer because the flow is restricted, then the water stays in the block longer. If it stays in the block longer, it is absorbing more heat that has to be rejected in the radiator. I don't profess to know the answer, it seems like another "chicken or egg" dilemma.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Hopefully I did not suggest that moving water slower through the engine and radiator improved cooling. I would not suggest that because that is not the case. That erroneous theory is that to cool the water better in the radiator it needs to be in there longer to give it more time to give up its heat so moving it through slower is better. The mistake in that theory is that, while the water is moving slower and cooling more going through the radiator, it is also moving slower and heating more going through the engine. So, the two nullify each other and slower moving water does not, in fact, cool better.

The reason moving more water faster through the engine and radiator cools better is because more heat transfers quicker when the temperatures of the two hot and cold objects are more different. One example is when you come into the heated house from the cold outside the warmer air in the house will eventually warm you up. But, if you move your cold body next to a roaring fire in a fireplace that is much hotter than your body it will heat it up much faster. What that means is that when water is moving faster through the engine and radiator, the temperature of the water in the radiator and engine are more different when the water first enters the engine and radiator and thus, transfers heat faster to the water and from the water to the radiator. The slower the water is moving and the longer it is in the radiator or engine, the less different the temperature of the water and surrounding surfaces becomes so that the heat transfer rate slows down. Thus, the engine cools better the faster and higher volume of water is that is moved through it and the radiator.

Hope that all makes sense.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

My point exactly.

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Here is a good read on cooling

http://www.centuryperformance.com/co...em-basics.html

R

Re: Yet an even higher flow thermostat?
 

Hi Everyone, Thanks for the link Ronnie, I enjoyed reading that. Thanks to everyone else for their contributions, also.