Heavy drag on rear drums II

[Dusty]

Not wanting to hijack the O.P. but sense we are talking about brakes I also have a problem with the rears. After relining the shoes for both drums they fit tight but the right side was real tight. I could move it by hand but it was hard, the left side I felt was OK but it was snug. (Adjuster back all they way out)

I have Mr. Gross's drums and brakes on the front, everything was done by him and they would drag a little but this seems normal. I now have braking power that seemed impossible with mechanical brakes, as far stopping goes I could not be more pleased.

One of the rears will squall not squeal but out right squall when braking hard, sounds like a big bus or truck stopping. The rears are woven lining and steel drums. The fronts after some spirited braking will run from 170 to 200 degrees. The rears will run about 115 to 125. I have the rears adjust one click back from almost locking up trying to turn it by hand with the wheel one, same with the fronts. Does this seem right? also what is up with the loud squall.

thanks!

dusty

[28ACoupe]

Not using original style brakes?

[Joe K]

I'm thinking the squall is you haven't "tapered" your linings between center and leading and trailing edges.

The optimal condition is to have the greatest PSI right at the centerline of the shoe, with decreasing psi as the measure is taken to the leading and trailing edges.

I think what you have is either equal pressure, or possibly the shoe is contacting the leading and trailing edges, which set up the center of the shoe like a guitar string.

I'm surprised you are going with cast iron fronts and steel rears. The fading action (think expansion by heat of the drum) of the steel rear compared to the front may be adding your tendency to squeal. And the relatively rigid front is letting the rear get the squeal on.

Certainly taper your shoes in the rear. Better would be to put cast iron all the way around. More for "consistancy sake" in braking - and to prevent any interplay between the cast iron and steel drums being reflected through the linkages.

Ford in the day advocated that 2/3rds of the braking action should occur on the rear shoes. This to prevent the rear from "swinging around" on application of brakes.

I agree with your setup generally though. My experience has been that 2/3rds of your brake action should be on the front thus taking advantage of the natural tendency of the contact pressure of the front wheels to increase on stopping. Modern drivers have learned to compensate for swinging of the rear of the car during braking by "steering the skid." Maybe in 1930 this ability wasn't as much required? Traffic may not have been as tight for drivers in 1930 either?

Joe K

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Not wanting to hijack the O.P. but sense we are talking about brakes I also have a problem with the rears. After relining the shoes for both drums they fit tight but the right side was real tight. I could move it by hand but it was hard, the left side I felt was OK but it was snug. (Adjuster back all they way out)

I have Mr. Gross's drums and brakes on the front, everything was done by him and they would drag a little but this seems normal. I now have braking power that seemed impossible with mechanical brakes, as far stopping goes I could not be more pleased.

One of the rears will squall not squeal but out right squall when braking hard, sounds like a big bus or truck stopping. The rears are woven lining and steel drums. The fronts after some spirited braking will run from 170 to 200 degrees. The rears will run about 115 to 125. I have the rears adjust one click back from almost locking up trying to turn it by hand with the wheel one, same with the fronts. Does this seem right? also what is up with the loud squall.

thanks!

dusty

the fronts should free wheel at least one revolution when properly adjusted as should the back. if your brakes are dragging thats causing the squeal...squak
your overheating them
also the car needs to be jacked up under the axles or the brake rods will pull if supported by the frame. on a lift i usually disconnect the brake rods so i can work on them

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

the fronts should free wheel at least one revolution when properly adjusted as should the back. if your brakes are dragging thats causing the squeal...squak
your overheating them
also the car needs to be jacked up under the axles or the brake rods will pull if supported by the frame. on a lift I usually disconnect the brake rods so i can work on them

Mitch, the fronts might almost have rolled a full turn, the rears no way. I had the car up on jack stands resting on the frame. Is 120 degrees after a ten mile run to hot?? They squalled and I stop got out and measured the temp on both sides of the rear and both were around 120, this doesn't seem high to me???

thanks all

dusty

[Dusty]

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Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

Not using original style brakes?

Not sure what you mean...are you suggesting Mel Gross's drums and brakes are inferior?

dusty

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Mitch, the fronts might almost have rolled a full turn, the rears no way. I had the car up on jack stands resting on the frame. Is 120 degrees after a ten mile run to hot?? They squalled and I stop got out and measured the temp on both sides of the rear and both were around 120, this doesn't seem high to me???

thanks all

dusty

if you have the jack stands under the frame and the brake rods connected then the rods are pulling //actuating the brakes some

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Joe K

I'm thinking the squall is you haven't "tapered" your linings between center and leading and trailing edges.

The optimal condition is to have the greatest PSI right at the centerline of the shoe, with decreasing psi as the measure is taken to the leading and trailing edges.

I think what you have is either equal pressure, or possibly the shoe is contacting the leading and trailing edges, which set up the center of the shoe like a guitar string.

I'm surprised you are going with cast iron fronts and steel rears. The fading action (think expansion by heat of the drum) of the steel rear compared to the front may be adding your tendency to squeal. And the relatively rigid front is letting the rear get the squeal on.

Certainly taper your shoes in the rear. Better would be to put cast iron all the way around. More for "consistancy sake" in braking - and to prevent any interplay between the cast iron and steel drums being reflected through the linkages.

Ford in the day advocated that 2/3rds of the braking action should occur on the rear shoes. This to prevent the rear from "swinging around" on application of brakes.

I agree with your setup generally though. My experience has been that 2/3rds of your brake action should be on the front thus taking advantage of the natural tendency of the contact pressure of the front wheels to increase on stopping. Modern drivers have learned to compensate for swinging of the rear of the car during braking by "steering the skid." Maybe in 1930 this ability wasn't as much required? Traffic may not have been as tight for drivers in 1930 either?

Joe K

Joe I went with this combo because of cost, my intent is to do the rears next winter...but you right I just thought I could get by until than...maybe not

The linings I got from Snyder's were tapered at the ends, should I have done more than that ?

thanks
dusty

[28ACoupe]

I am wondering if you are running original style brakes or if you have changed them to hydraulics.

Originally Posted by Dusty

Not sure what you mean...are you suggesting Mel Gross's drums and brakes are inferior?

dusty

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

I am wondering if you are running original style brakes or if you have changed them to hydraulics.

Still mechanical and I'm very happy with how they work now and yes they would be better if I had cast all the way around

dusty

[TDO]

I also run cast iron on front and steel on the back. I have no problem with the set up. If I remember right you told me that you pressed the steel support ring on the steel drums. If so they may be out of round ,Maybe that's why they are tight. maybe they did to be bored to true them up.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

if you have the jack stands under the frame and the brake rods connected then the rods are pulling //actuating the brakes some

Mitch I had the rods disconnected, when I connected the rods it took it up every so slightly. What about my temperatures?

thanks
dusty

[28ACoupe]

If the adjustment is backed all the way out, the controls are well lubricated, and you are still dragging, I would say to take the drums to a shop and have them turn them down a few thousands of an inch. Not much. Maybe .005".

Alternately, you can have the shoes re-arched and remove a little material off the pads to get the clearance you need.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by TDO

I also run cast iron on front and steel on the back. I have no problem with the set up. If I remember right you told me that you pressed the steel support ring on the steel drums. If so they may be out of round ,Maybe that's why they are tight. maybe they did to be bored to true them up.

These bands were on the front and those are the ones I replaced, I did nothing to the rear drums and I relined the shoes. Brakes are great now but for that squalling under hard braking. I also think the temperatures are good but maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in. How are things in good ole Enterprise?

dusty

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

If the adjustment is backed all the way out, the controls are well lubricated, and you are still dragging, I would say to take the drums to a shop and have them turn them down a few thousands of an inch. Not much. Maybe .005".

Alternately, you can have the shoes re-arched and remove a little material off the pads to get the clearance you need.

I cleaned up everything although they were not bad at all. They were working OK but the linings were getting down to the rivets or I would not have touched them. I checked them for proper operation by cranking on the brake arm with the rods disconnected and they work fine.

I have no clue as to how to arc them and I have read everything here that I could find but it still escapes me but then again most things do

I could take them apart again and take the ends down some more and maybe the high spots will revel them self's now and sand them down.

Now as far as turning the drums?? I only have one place here that can do them and I'm not sure they completely understand what they are doing. I took the front drums to them to be turned and they looked fine but after 2000 miles the linings had started to strip pieces of the drum away. That material became in bedded in the linings and that metal cut deep rows in the drums. Did they take to much of the drum away?? maybe someone can explain why that happened.

thanks
dusty

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Dusty

These bands were on the front and those are the ones I replaced, I did nothing to the rear drums and I relined the shoes. Brakes are great now but for that squalling under hard braking. I also think the temperatures are good but maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in. How are things in good ole Enterprise?

dusty

New brake jobs should be broke in easy. Hard braking isn't recommended for the first 1000 miles. I'd just drive it and I think the temp is fine.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Joe I went with this combo because of cost, my intent is to do the rears next winter...but you right I just thought I could get by until than...maybe not

The linings I got from Snyder's were tapered at the ends, should I have done more than that ?

thanks
dusty

Well, the taper (frequently just a "chamfer") is kind of like a beginners taper. It could be more and likely would be except you do cut into your brake material/life by removal to taper.

I tapered about 1 to 1-1/2 inch on mine. But a "long" taper.

Somewhere on another thread I described a DIY version I used in the 1980s to 'arch' my shoes. This using an artists spray adhesive and 100 grit paper applied to the inside of the drums. And then carefully working the shoes out and using the paper to "mate" the shoes to the drum.

With the paper removed, the contact of the shoes to the drum interior is "hardest" in the center and less so at the leading and trailing edge.

I suppose when done in this manner it removes the necessity to taper - although I did that too as above - a couple of swipes of the mill file. Well, everyone I talked to said to do that.

Today I would search out the pressure sensitive adhesive backed grit papers that are frequently available in half sheets for use with electric sanders.

It really takes doing all four wheels at once. And each done the same. You then tie it all together using the linkages and then one by one "equalize" (match) the pressure of the shoes on the drums. Once this done then give the fronts a bit "more."

I could see cast iron drums would naturally give the front "more." Cast iron is much more "consistent" than pressed steel drums.

I used a sand covered road to see which wheel "caught first" on gentle application of the brakes. When all were pretty much adjusted the same (and skid together) then I "goosed" the front somewhat so that each side skidded before the rears and equally.

Then I did much the same on a macadam road (tar) at increasing brake pressure and to the point where the front skidded first. This about the optimal braking limit of narrow tires.

It's a little bit of an art - and persistance to get it right.

Joe K

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

New brake jobs should be broke in easy. Hard braking isn't recommended for the first 1000 miles. I'd just drive it and I think the temp is fine.

Thanks Tom, I have may have over stated the hard braking part firm would be more like it. If I gently come up from behind on someone than you hear nothing.

Also to be honest with all the hills around here I'm not sure if there is a gentle brake in procedure that you can follow I will put on some more miles to see what happens. I was most concerned about the temperatures but just based on what I found with the temps maybe the dragging is not a big concern.....but that is why I asked here.

thanks
dusty

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Well, the taper (frequently just a "chamfer") is kind of like a beginners taper. It could be more and likely would be except you do cut into your brake material/life by removal to taper.

I tapered about 1 to 1-1/2 inch on mine. But a "long" taper.

Somewhere on another thread I described a DIY version I used in the 1980s to 'arch' my shoes. This using an artists spray adhesive and 100 grit paper applied to the inside of the drums. And then carefully working the shoes out and using the paper to "mate" the shoes to the drum.

With the paper removed, the contact of the shoes to the drum interior is "hardest" in the center and less so at the leading and trailing edge.

I suppose when done in this manner it removes the necessity to taper - although I did that too as above - a couple of swipes of the mill file. Well, everyone I talked to said to do that.

Today I would search out the pressure sensitive adhesive backed grit papers that are frequently available in half sheets for use with electric sanders.

It really takes doing all four wheels at once. And each done the same. You then tie it all together using the linkages and then one by one "equalize" (match) the pressure of the shoes on the drums. Once this done then give the fronts a bit "more."

I could see cast iron drums would naturally give the front "more." Cast iron is much more "consistent" than pressed steel drums.

I used a sand covered road to see which wheel "caught first" on gentle application of the brakes. When all were pretty much adjusted the same (and skid together) then I "goosed" the front somewhat so that each side skidded before the rears and equally.

Then I did much the same on a macadam road (tar) at increasing brake pressure and to the point where the front skidded first. This about the optimal braking limit of narrow tires.

It's a little bit of an art - and persistance to get it right.

Joe K

Boy you got that right I looked locally for the adhesive type sand paper but could not fine any. I will give it a few more miles and then may take another look at them. I will taper some more on the ends and like I said in another post maybe the high spots will now revel them self's

Thanks all for your time
dusty

[1931 flamingo]

Some say the rear e/brake linings are oversized, may be why yours are "tight". Not sure if you put "bands" on Mel's new drums or the old ones. If either on the old or new, the drums should be turned. Did you center the shoes after installing? Any other mods to the braking system (Floaters, Flathead Ted's?).
Paul in CT