Is this a "Caveat Emptor" scenario?

[southfork]

A guy who sold me a pretty nice Model B engine last fall also offered me what was supposed to be a rebuilt/rebabbited Model A engine for $400, just as soon as he could pick it up from his grandfather shop 300 miles away. Yesterday he called me to tell me he had picked it up along with another "rebuilt" engine at his grandfather's place on the other side of the state, and that I could buy them both for $1000. I plan on going over to look at them tomorrow or the next day. I am a bit concerned, however, because he tells me that the $400 engine, while rebuilt, has a cracked head and will not turn over with the hand crank, even though it's never been run since the rebuild. This sounds strange to me, and I am wondering how unlikely it is that an rebuilt engine that has not been run could be locked up and have a cracked head. Does this send up red flags to you guys, or is it possible that just sitting in a shop or shed in a dry western state could somehow rust inside from condensation or some such? Maybe I shouldn't be too concerned until I pull off the valve cover and head and see what it looks like.

I know a real, skilled rebuild costs a lot of $ these days, but don't want to put out $400 for a pig in a poke. What do you think?

[dumb person]

Where i live i would probably have to pay $400 for a rough engine, maybe his idea of rebuilt cleaning it & painting it? For me it would depend on how much i wanted a spare but it does seem a bit odd. Maybe the other guys will be able to advise better, 300 miles is a long way to go for something you may not really want to buy.

[Mike V. Florida]

A rebuilt/rebabbited Model A engine for $400 is perhaps the greatest deal the average Model A owner can find.

While the fact that the engine cannot turn over could be just an indication of a tight engine, the cracked head bothers me even more then the extreamly cheap price.

How would the head have cracked if there was never any water in it (since you were told it never ran)?

Another concern of mine is, why if both engines are coming from his grandfathers shop, would one be $400.00 and the other $600.00 ( "...buy them both for $1000.).

Rebuildable blocks seem to go for 2-300 dollars. You're either going to pay a few hundred dollars over the going rate or your going to save yourself thousands if they are truly rebuilt. Are you a gambling man?

[Arlen]

A freshly painted engine looks nice and new. Could be the guy has no clue what they are or are worth. Model a heads cost almost that much. Sounds way to cheap.

[hardtimes]

You are correct in being leary of this 'deal' as stated. Even at $600. for a 'rebuilt' engine...I'd be concerned. 300 mi is a loong ways to go...for possibly a major disappointment ..if not as advertised. Not to mention the price of gasoline !
BUT...if you make up your mind to spend the time/money to make this journey, I'd make it known...BEFOREHAND to this guy, that you are going to remove the heads and valve and oil pans of both engines to come to some conclusion regarding your money and his engines. If seller balks one nanosecond...you have an answer. Good luck and let us know how lucky you are..one way or other

[ctlikon0712]

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All the opinions and points are very valid. I also think like Mike that it could just be a tight engine and the rings are stuck. Someone could have gotten aggressive re-shimming the Babbitt Bearings. Either way inspect the internals before you buy!
Allot of experience speaking together on this subject.

[fordcoupe]

I would use caution on this deal check then out real close hope it works out for you :0

[James Rogers]

Buyer beware! Could be the builder set it up real tight. I have even had owners request for me to set a new one up like this, I don't do that any more.

Like Mike I also wonder

"While the fact that the engine cannot turn over could be just an indication of a tight engine, the cracked head bothers me even more then the extreamly cheap price.

How would the head have cracked if there was never any water in it (since you were told it never ran)?"

I would also, look under the water jackets for obvious cracks and you still may miss one.

[Aok]

I use a simple rule if something does not feel right pass it by. There are other engines out there.

[Jim Johnston]

Regarding James Roger's comments above - In my early Model 'A' days I bought a rebuilt engine that was extremely tight. You could barely turn it over by hand and you needed to put a lot pf 'beef' in to it to do that. Some of the old timers told me not to worry that it would be OK. I was still concerned and really took it easy when I got it running. When the engine had 43 miles on it #3 connecting rod deposited its' babbit in the bottom of the pan! I would be very cautious of a really 'tight' engine. By the way the person I bought the engine from made good with a set of 4 rebabbited Connecting rods. The engine now has about 10K on it and is running great.

[luckyal]

I wouldn't waste my gasoline to go see them. Call and enemy and tell him about the deal and give him directions !
Al

[5window]

I'm just curious why the family, obviously involved with A's since you bought one engine and there are two more-hasn't already tried to see what's up with these engines. Might be a great deal-if you have the time and money, go check it out, but follow all the leads given above. And, of course, don't convince yourself-"well, I've driven 300 miles...." and keep us posted. But, I am not sure-rereading your post-are the engines close to you now, having come across the state by the seller?

[5window]

Originally Posted by luckyal

I wouldn't waste my gasoline to go see them. Call and enemy and tell him about the deal and give him directions !
Al

Boy, you're a cheerful cuss this morning. There are just as many people who have no idea what they've got as there are people who try to rip you off. If no one ever followed a wild goose chase, all those great barn finds would still be in the barns-waiting for me! Every antique guy knows you have to sieve through a lot of chaff to get to the wheat. Just have to keep your eyes open,that's all. Have a great day!

[Richard Wilson]

Rebuilt means different things to different people! Some think a new gasket set and a $5 can of engine paint qualifies as rebuilt. I would want to see invoice for parts and labor involved unless I could either take the engine apart for inspection or at least see it running and driving.

[juke joint johnny]

Maybe they put that cracked head on it to keep out the Mice !!!!
With no intention of running it like that

Not such a bad idea if you ever have to clean out rodent crap from the water jacket

You have to go look at these engines pull the heads and oil pans off and see what you find !!!! Good Luck and report back

John Cochran

[luckyal]

I am cheerful every day and I seldom cuss ( Lol ) ! The old adage is if it seems too good to be true it likely is ! I don't know a reputable engine rebuilder that would put a cracked head on an engine ! As Mr. Wilson says, rebuilt means different things to different people !
Best case scenario, no money until a teardown and you hear it running !
Al

[Forker]

After all is said and done, trusting your gut usually is the smartest course of action.

[eagle]

One thing to remember, to the average Flea Market guy, a rebuilt engine is one that someone with a fair amount of engine know-how has gone through. Probably removed shims, re-ringed, ground valves, and new gasket set. If that is what you will be happy with, give him $800 for the pair. Its a good deal. If you're looking for a professionally rebuilt engine done to perfect specs, buy one from the professional rebuilder for about $3500+. Don't expect a professionally rebuilt engine to be sold for $400...its not going to happen. That being said, those may be very usable good engines and when he said "rebuilt engine with a cracked head" I expect it is a "repaired" cracked head. Meaning that everything else on the engine was probably done to the same level of "repair". I ran a "repaired cracked head" on an engine and it worked just fine. However, if I had bought the engine from a professional and it came with a previously cracked head I would be upset.

[1931 flamingo]

Does the "other" one $600 turn over?? Lots of unknowns here. "If it sounds too good to be true................"
Paul in CT

[Terry, NJ]

Yes BRIGHT RED FLAGS! I paid $75 for a complete block with a solid head, and a .040 bore and the valves are rusty NP! I'm having new mains poured + magnafluxing + Boiling out + regrinding the crank $700! And new valves, rings, gaskets $100 +. And cutting the head .030 $40. Pull that head and valve cover and see what you've really got, it's cracked anyway!
Terry