Best rust solution?

[Old Henry]

I just removed these water pumps that had sprung a leak. As far as I know these were clean when my engine was rebuilt in June.



This is after just 5 months of running plain water and two bottles of Hy-per Lube Super Coolant that claims to prevent this kind of thing.

I'm assuming that my entire block looks this bad inside so would like your best ideas of how to dissolve this rust and I'll try some of the most popular ideas on this stuff and see what happens.

[Jack E/NJ]

Henry---Once the pulley is off the shaft, you're home-free. The shaft assembly should easily push thru the bushing or bearing .

As for the rust, buy a few gallon jugs of bulk white vinegar at the supermarket. Use it straight. Run it for a few days. Drain. Neutralize with washing soda or baking soda solution. Drain again. Then put 50/50 anti-freeze in it.


Jack E/NJ

[FlatheadTed]

Good advice on the Vinegar but It takes a lot to get rust out of a block the rust there looks like its a 50 year build up ,most engine reconditions don't have the aggressive chemicals to clean a block properly ,it takes a specialist rust stripper such as someone like Ready strip . To make any impact on that rust you would likely need the Vinegar in there for months .then I would want the heads and radiator of because of the gaskets ,The Vinegar is good for braking down the build up on top of the radiator tubes and as a light radiator clean three or four weeks ,I would just run stockings in the hoses ,

[flatford8]

Why do you run straight water and not anti-freeze with a rust inhibitor? Doesn't it get below freezing where you live?.....Mark

[Bruce Lancaster]

If it were my engine, I'd shake loose a few $ and fillitup with evaporust. Eats the rust, no side effects because no acid or caustic. it will eventually eat all the rust away to nothingness, but stocking filters would still be a good idea because dissolving the rust will likely shake loose other stuff from the sludge pit down there. An ideal solution would be to swap in a crummy spare radiator so you can freely run the thing to circulate the solution AND to heat it up for faster action.
When you eventually drain out the evaporust, it will look really awful but will probably still have considerable power in a derusting tank. I love the stuff...it gets all the rust and does not damage anything, even zinc.

[Mart]

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Every car that is built is filled with a mixture of water and anti-freeze. The anti-freeze has all sorts of additives to promote trouble free motoring for millions and millions of motorists.

Personally, that's all I do. Water and antifreeze. Why do people with old cars think there is a better way to do it? if there was, the factories would be doing it. They have to stand behind a lengthy warranty on every car they make. The stuff they use isn't some magic unobtainable magic potion, it's just good quality stuff you can buy at a parts place.

Mart.

[bobH]

I'd offer the opinion that the picts shown by the professor do NOT represent what has happened in five months. Probably been a good long time since those parts were really clean. Seems like it was posted some time ago that his engine was hot-tanked (or some modern substitute) at rebuild time. No way the current 'tank-cleaning-methods' are going to get this sort of stuff out. My guess would be that these pumps are quite a bit older than 5 months, perhaps even the 30K miles that has been mentioned. There have been several old posts on what it takes to really clean a block, and I would defer to those posts.
Seems like Ron, and maybe JWL, have mentioned the 'bake n shake' method of block cleaning. And, there have been a few posts on the chemical cleaning process (which some of us are a little afraid of). And, there have been posts on here regarding the technique of poking down through the deck holes to break-out the bad stuff, with a sharpened slim steel rod. And, even one post about running a long drill from the front, through the water-pump hole, to drill through some nasty rust between the cylinder and the wall. As far as I'm able to recall, I don't think Henry reported on any of this stuff being done at rebuild time. I'd speculate that his engine had a 'cursory' cleaning, with most of the old stuff remaining in there. Just speculation, JMO.

[Bruce Lancaster]

bobH is probably correct, though there is also the possibility that they got the block REALLYDAMNCLEAN and it went to hell in a big hurry running without the antifreeze!
"chemical cleaning process (which some of us are a little afraid of)" YES! In this case, chemical cleaning is the only hope without tearing a running car apart, and the Evaporust is the only chemical I know of that is really effective at rust eating and not capable of eating iron and/or whatever it encounters in the radiator. If this is to work, it will need a lot of chemical in there for a substantial amount of time, and most alternatives are acid or caustic and will eventually eat anything they can find, like the fox sent to get rid of the mice in the chicken coop...
Evapo will be safe.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Why do you run straight water and not anti-freeze with a rust inhibitor? Doesn't it get below freezing where you live?.....Mark

Here is my answer from my related thread here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122565

"After I overheated a few times I got desperate to do anything that would lower the temperature just a few degrees that could be the difference between just real hot and boiling out the coolant.

I usually ran anti-freeze all year round before that but will go back to that now. Probably not the full 50/50 mix but at least a gallon or two out of my 5 gallon system.

Maintaining and adjusting these old cars is so often like a "Fiddler on the Roof" balancing between two competing needs and interests. Rarely is the full extreme on either end of a spectrum the correct balance."

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

bobH is probably correct, though there is also the possibility that they got the block REALLYDAMNCLEAN and it went to hell in a big hurry running without the antifreeze!
"chemical cleaning process (which some of us are a little afraid of)" YES! In this case, chemical cleaning is the only hope without tearing a running car apart, and the Evaporust is the only chemical I know of that is really effective at rust eating and not capable of eating iron and/or whatever it encounters in the radiator. If this is to work, it will need a lot of chemical in there for a substantial amount of time, and most alternatives are acid or caustic and will eventually eat anything they can find, like the fox sent to get rid of the mice in the chicken coop...
Evapo will be safe.

I like the looks and sounds of the Evapo-Rust. I'd not heard of it before and just read up all about it. I wanted to make sure that it was safe for engine blocks. Sure enough. It removes the rust by a chelation process rather than acid which is much safer for the underlying steel and all other metals. Here are the instructions on the web site for cooling systems. Looks like it shouldn't take more than overnight.

1. Drain cooling system and rinse with water.
2. Fill system with Evapo-Rust®. (Do NOT dilute.)
3. Run Engine under normal conditions, shut engine down and let sit, for a couple hours to overnight.
4. Drain system into a container for later use.
5. Flush system with water.
6. Repeat process (1-5) if necessary.
7. Fill system with proper coolant/antifreeze.

I've got my two test chemicals now. I'm going to soak one pump in vinegar and the other in Evapo-Rust and photograph them each day to see what happens and report.

Thanks for your ideas. Hope one of them work.

[Brian]

Pesonally, I don't like using acids of any kind on cast iron. Tends to eat out the carbon content- which is the pitting that has been observed with molassis treatments etc.Much prefer to use an alkali. As long as there is no aluminum in your cooling system [read heads], fill the system with caustic soda and drive the thing. The hotter it gets, the better the caustic works. Drain and refill as required, finally flushing with straight water. This will give you nice clean water jackets etc, improving heat transfer etc. Then, irrespective of where you live, tropics to the polar regions fill system with 50/50 mix of antifreeze and be happy.

[TStiles]

I like the looks and sounds of the Evapo-Rust. I'd not heard of it before and just read up all about it. I wanted to make sure that it was safe for engine blocks. Sure enough. Here are the instructions on the web site for cooling systems. Looks like it shouldn't take more than overnight.

1. Drain cooling system and rinse with water.
2. Fill system with Evapo-Rust®. (Do NOT dilute.)
3. Run Engine under normal conditions, shut engine down and let sit, for a couple hours to overnight.
4. Drain system into a container for later use.
5. Flush system with water.
6. Repeat process (1-5) if necessary.
7. Fill system with proper coolant/antifreeze.

I've got my two test chemicals now. I'm going to soak one pump in vinegar and the other in Evapo-Rust and photograph them each day to see what happens and report.

Thanks for your ideas. Hope one of them work.


'Looks like you might be onto something. Please keep us posted on this.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I nice thing about the evapo is that you will end up with 5 gallons or so of dirty but probably still effective solution, and you'll be able to just pitch everything you drag home from junkyard or fleamarket into that and let it perk without worries...

[39wdy]

Prof. Henry, I have a beat up looking radiator that I have used on my test stand it is the same type as you have installed in Old Henry. If I could figure out how to get it to you from Vermont, I would let you run that until your block was cleaned out. Although this radiator looks bad it absolutely works quite well. I think someone suggested using a less valuable radiator while cleaning out your block.
I also have a very interesting adjustable thermostat in my collection that I thought might be a possible solution to your heating problems. However, it looks like you have some rusty sludge there which is definitely affecting the engine's ability to regulate temperature.
Please let me know if I can help in any way, my wife and I so enjoy your travels in the West we hate to think you won't be out there taking more beautiful pictures for all of our enjoyment.
Toby and Jennifer

[FlatheadTed]

I personally wouldn't use anty freeze because of the variation on expiry dates it becomes very corrosive after two or three years ,specially on Aluminium heads, this is a head I removed after welding it up twice at the casket face.With two incidents of water in the oil .

[Jack E/NJ]

I thought the fluorescent dyes used in anti-freeze lose their fluorescent qualities to indicate that they should be replaced?

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 39wdy

Prof. Henry, I have a beat up looking radiator that I have used on my test stand it is the same type as you have installed in Old Henry. If I could figure out how to get it to you from Vermont, I would let you run that until your block was cleaned out. I think someone suggested using a less valuable radiator while cleaning out your block.
Toby and Jennifer

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

. . . swap in a crummy spare radiator so you can freely run the thing to circulate the solution AND to heat it up for faster action.

I'm not sure what all of this discussion about radiators is. Mine is good. It was totally checked out and cleaned out by the local radiator shop in June while the engine was being rebuilt. It's clean as a whistle. It's my engine block that I think probably has as much rust as my water pumps do and is very likely the cause of the chronic heat problems I've had. Hopefully I'll find out that either vinegar or Evapo-Rust will clean that out so I don't have to worry about overheating any more.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Brian

Pesonally, I don't like using acids of any kind on cast iron.

Good thing about Evapo-rust is that it is neither acid nor alkaline so no worries about extreme pH.

[Kahuna]

Where is Evapo sold? I've not seen it.
Thanks

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Where is Evapo sold? I've not seen it.
Thanks

O’Reilly’s Auto Parts is where I just bought mine.

Also at:

Pep Boys
AutoZone
Advance Auto Parts
Fastenal
Harbor Freight
Mustangs Unlimited
Northern Tool & Equipment
RustRemover.net
Summit Racing
The Rust Store
True Value
Workshop Tools

5 gal. bucket at Sears

[Kahuna]

Thanks Henry
Also wondering how you know when it's done it's job?
I did notice it said to repeat the process

[Conrad Rossi]

Originally Posted by TStiles

I like the looks and sounds of the Evapo-Rust. I'd not heard of it before and just read up all about it. I wanted to make sure that it was safe for engine blocks. Sure enough. Here are the instructions on the web site for cooling systems. Looks like it shouldn't take more than overnight.

1. Drain cooling system and rinse with water.
2. Fill system with Evapo-Rust®. (Do NOT dilute.)
3. Run Engine under normal conditions, shut engine down and let sit, for a couple hours to overnight.
4. Drain system into a container for later use.
5. Flush system with water.
6. Repeat process (1-5) if necessary.
7. Fill system with proper coolant/antifreeze.

I've got my two test chemicals now. I'm going to soak one pump in vinegar and the other in Evapo-Rust and photograph them each day to see what happens and report.

Thanks for your ideas. Hope one of them work.


'Looks like you might be onto something. Please keep us posted on this.

Hello,

Another chelation agent are molases. There are pretty inexpensive and will not react with anu other metals. There are many videos in You Tube demonstrating how to use them and examples.

The only downside compared to any Evaporust-like product is time. Depending on the amount of rust to be removed it could take weeks to fully complete the job.

Please keepnus posted, Professor. ThanK you.

[poweredbylincoln]

soak in white viniger then rinse!!

best thing since sliced bread!!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Thanks Henry
Also wondering how you know when it's done it's job?
I did notice it said to repeat the process

I'm assuming that it works like Naval Jelly that I've used for years. You know it's done its job when the rust is gone. Inside the engine? Well, that's why I'm testing it on my water pumps. If the Evapo-rust one is clean in the morning then I'll know it takes 12 hours or less. The instructions on the container say 2-12 hours. After that rinse it off to see if the rust is all gone and if not soak it again.

[Jack E/NJ]

Henry>>>I'm not sure what all of this discussion about radiators is. Mine is good.>>>

I think their concern here Henry, is that when the Evapo Rust or vinegar goes to work on cleaning your block, they might loosen chunky stuff up that'll clog up your good radiator.

Jack E/NJ

[oldbugger]

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Prof. Henry, I would check with your rebuilder and see how he cleaned it at rebuild time. It might be he cleaned the block but left the pumps on the bench. If the block was cleaned well, I would put the new pumps on and use a 50/50 mix, gives the best protection, that how it was meant to be used. Change coolant every 2 yrs. jmo. Paul

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Henry>>>I'm not sure what all of this discussion about radiators is. Mine is good.>>>

I think their concern here Henry, is that when the Evapo Rust or vinegar goes to work on cleaning your block, they might loosen chunky stuff up that'll clog up your good radiator.

Jack E/NJ

We'll see, if and when any rust is removed from the pumps, whether there are any "chunks" that would clog the radiator and will act accordingly. From all of the rust removal I've done before (the most dramatic with Muratic acid) I've never seen "chunks". All rust just dissolves into the solution.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by oldbugger

Prof. Henry, I would check with your rebuilder and see how he cleaned it at rebuild time. It might be he cleaned the block but left the pumps on the bench.

I thought about it and reached the same conclusion. The rust in my pumps is probably from 5 years and 45,000 miles use.

Still, if I find something that will remove it from the pumps I'll probably go ahead and put it in the engine to clean it out, "just in case." I hate boiling over. Even just one more time will be too many.

[Binx]

Henry, I believe your major buildup is calcium with a rust tint. I don't recall you using distilled water in your system with the additive. Remember where you live is the remains (Salt Lake) of a giant prehistoric inland ocean and your ground water is rife with calcium/lime from all those little shell critters. Try some Limeaway on those pumps. If those deposits in the pump foam up then it is a calcium problem.

Lonnie

[Old Henry]

Didn't wait till morning. Just took a peek after just an hour and here's the result so far. Evapo-rust on the left, vinegar on the right.



Before treatment to compare:



I'll check in another hour for any more changes.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Binx

Henry, I believe your major buildup is calcium with a rust tint. I don't recall you using distilled water in your system with the additive. Remember where you live is the remains (Salt Lake) of a giant prehistoric inland ocean and your ground water is rife with calcium/lime from all those little shell critters. Try some Limeaway on those pumps. If those deposits in the pump foam up then it is a calcium problem.

Lonnie

I generally try to use either distilled water or softened (decalcified) water. Sometimes on the road, though, when the water blows out I put in whatever is at hand. Usually drinking water from a convenience store (has some minerals in it).

As far as I know, Lime-away is just an acid like vinegar, both of which should dissolve calcium. If I have both rust and calcium it may take both the Evapo-rust and vinegar to do the job. We'll see.

[Binx]

Well yes, limeaway is an acid like vinegar is an acid. Both are lower on the Ph scale but are two different animals. Limeaway is sulfamic acid which has a unique affinity to attack calcium. Vinegar....not so much. You might want to give it a try.

Lonnie

[VeryTangled]

Hello Everyone, Even the outside of the left pump is looking better! Fascinating!

VT/JeffH

[Old Henry]

Interesting. After 12 hours no more changes by the Evapo-rust on the left but the vinegar is obviously eating away whatever warts were under the rust (not doing much for the rust itself). The "warts" actually seem to look a little worse with the Evapo-rust. I'll keep soaking and see what more happens.

[TStiles]

This is a great thread, thanks for the updates, Professor. Prof. Henry, the Barn's very own "Mr. Wizard".

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by TStiles

This is a great thread, thanks for the updates, Professor. Prof. Henry, the Barn's very own "Mr. Wizard".

Funny. I just watched the very first episode of Mr. Wizard on YouTube (1951) and he was showing a kid how to make a volcano with none other than Asbestos paper. Add some ammonium-dichromate, ground up sparklers, and a fuse and stand back. (Built and lit on a piece of bare plywood to "protect" the table. ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l570H7wQdpo

[FlatheadTed]

I use as a rust inhibiter Lath cutting fluid ,this is common in the Model A part of the hobby .Anty freeze is ok if you change it on the due date ,

[john in illinois]

I have used wood bleach (oxalic acid that used to be Prestone radiator flush, and washing soda, not baking soda to neutralize). I ran my model A for a summer with water wetter and plain water. Big mistake ,huge rust in the block.

Here is a long complicated post about this cleaner.http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ner-flush.html


9 dry oz of Oxalic Acid (DAP Wood Bleach)
2 dry oz of Sodium Carbonate (Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda)
Mix acid with water in a bucket,pour in and idle untill up to temperature and leave in for a couple of hours. Neutralize with washing soda. This took all the rust out of my block and it does not attack any good metal.

This stuff really works. Here is a thread on HAMB. Doesn't even harm paint.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ht=oxalic+acid

John

[Bruce Lancaster]

Photos...I think lime AND rust! I would do evapo--drain--acid (Lime away, vinegar)--rinse carefully--dump the evapo back in to get the rust under the departed lime. Then save the 5 gallons of evapo and dump all my spare parts into it...

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by TStiles

I like the looks and sounds of the Evapo-Rust. I'd not heard of it before and just read up all about it. I wanted to make sure that it was safe for engine blocks. Sure enough. Here are the instructions on the web site for cooling systems. Looks like it shouldn't take more than overnight.

1. Drain cooling system and rinse with water.
2. Fill system with Evapo-Rust®. (Do NOT dilute.)
3. Run Engine under normal conditions, shut engine down and let sit, for a couple hours to overnight.
4. Drain system into a container for later use.
5. Flush system with water.
6. Repeat process (1-5) if necessary.
7. Fill system with proper coolant/antifreeze.

I've got my two test chemicals now. I'm going to soak one pump in vinegar and the other in Evapo-Rust and photograph them each day to see what happens and report.

Thanks for your ideas. Hope one of them work.


'Looks like you might be onto something. Please keep us posted on this.

If you like Evaporust you will like this stuff better: http://rustremoverproducts.com/

It is the same stuff as Evaporust but is concentrated and less than half price. I bought a gallon of it. I soaked a Model A block with Evaporust.

I used Evaporust to free the rusted tight glove box hinge on my 36 Woodie.

[Old Henry]

12 more hours (24 total now) and both chemicals seem to be making progress on the "warts"

[Jack E/NJ]

Well, Henry, I suppose heating the solutions to about 180 F might give a more representative real-world comparison. But I'm still more interested in your forensic analysis as to why it leaked all of a sudden. Sounds to me like the spring holding the seal in place broke all of a sudden from corrosion. I anxiously await your analysis. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Well, Henry, I suppose heating the solutions to about 180 F might give a more representative real-world comparison.
Jack E/NJ

You're probably right about the heat. It would most likely speed up the chemical reaction as it does to most chemical reactions. Agitation would also. But I'm soaking them in plastic buckets so I guess I won't be heating them up. In the long run, it will probably be good to see how the chemicals work in an engine that's just sitting as most engines on this forum seem to do.

As for trying to take apart the pumps and see what I can see, AnnaRae, Pepe, and I are Headed on a three day road trip in Old Henry Thursday for my birthday so further analysis will have to wait until next week. I'll leave the pumps soaking while I'm gone. Hopefully, they'll both be clean when I return.

[Old Henry]

Another 12 hours (36 total) and the vinegar on the right is still progressing. The Evapo-rust on the left not so much.
Am leaving on a road trip for three days so next check will be on Saturday night.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Use then sequentially! The E-rust will never remove anything that isn't rust, the vinegar will be eating clean iron before it kills all the rust. Get the rust, then the calcium or whatever it is, then another run of evap because some of the white stuff is probably protecting rust.

[Old Henry]

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Test is ended. Here are the results after 4 days of soaking:
Evapo-Rust on the left. Vinegar on the right.



And after a quick wipe with my finger inside of both pumps, there is no residue from the Evapo-Rust whereas the vinegar has left substantial not changed much in the last 36 hours.



36 hours ago (from Post # 44):



Also note that the vinegar ate the paint off of the right pump and then the metal rusted after the paint was gone. Not good in my opinion. (First picture from post # 1 before any treatment. All paint still on the right pump.)



I checked the warts with a magnet then scraped some off after the test was concluded and they were nothing but solid rust, not calcium nor lime deposits.

Another noticeable difference is that the Evapo-Rust solution is still totally clear with just a few black particles at the bottom, probably dirt from the outside of the pump.



Whereas, the vinegar solution is cloudy and milky rust colored.





My conclusions:

1. The Evapo-Rust is far superior to plain vinegar. It does any and all that vinegar does and more and leaves the metal and the solution clear and clean.

2. Acid may do some good but not enough when compared to the bad it also does at the same time. I figured out later that the reason the vinegar quit working is that it lost its acidity. Three pints of vinegar was somehow neutralized by just the intake of the water pump sitting in it for a few days. It wore out before it even finished the job. Such doesn't predict very good results in an engine block where the ratio of metal to vinegar is even higher making it even more likely that the vinegar would be neutralized before it finished its job.

3. The thick deposits were not any kind of calcium or lime deposits. I checked them with a magnet then scraped some off (after the test was concluded) and they were nothing but solid rust.

4. Neither approach creates any "chunks" of stuff that needs to be filtered out by putting some kind of filter in the radiator to keep it from plugging up. Anything suspended in either solution will be flushed out by a good back flushing (which any filter would keep from working.) When I say "good back flushing" I mean this kind: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83557

5. Although the Evapo-rust costs more - $60.00 for 5 gallons compared to $25.00 for the vinegar - it can be reused over and over again for up to 300 lbs. of rusted steel per gallon giving additional value for the additional cost.

Next summer, when it gets time to start worrying about overheating, I'll take the radiator hoses off of the top of the heads and look down inside to see if I see any rust or corrosion even though my engine rebuilder said he "boiled it out" just in June. If there's anything I'll put in the Evapo-Rust, run it for a few days, then look in to see if the rust is all gone.

Another interesting thing I learned about Evapo-Rust from my research - you'll notice that there is a slight darkening of the metal after being cleaned by Evapo-Rust. Here is the explanation of that from the Evapo-Rust site:

"The black film is carbon from the steel. Steel is composed of a combination of carbon and iron. In certain instances, steel will darken in color after rust has been removed from the surface of the metal. This is a natural phenomenon that chemists refer to as “carbon migration”. The carbon from the steel moves, or “migrates”, to the outer layer of the metal and settles into the pores. The removal of the rust (iron oxide) reduces the proportion of iron to carbon, leaving a higher concentration of carbon on the outer surface. This heavier layer of carbon could cause a darkening of the metal due to the attributes of the carbon. The darkening does not have an adverse affect on the metal. It merely represents the movement of carbon from the interior of the metal to the exterior of the metal."

And, from another part of their site I learned that the black carbon layer turns out to be a good thing as it is a rust barrier from future or further rust whereas, metal cleaned by acid is susceptible to "flash rust" or rust that forms almost immediately when the metal in exposed to air. Possibly why the right pump is red in the pictures after I just take it out of the vinegar and rinse it with water.

[Jack E/NJ]

Old Henry>>>Test is ended>>>

Sorry, Henry. But your test is incomplete unless your engine normally runs at room temperature when it's all warmed up. Also, the analysis of what caused the sudden leak. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Old Henry>>>Test is ended>>>

Sorry, Henry. But your test is incomplete unless your engine normally runs at room temperature when it's all warmed up. Also, the analysis of what caused the sudden leak. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

"Objection, your honor! The question has already been asked and answered!" the frustrated attorney points out. The judge looks over the questioner (Jack E/NJ), feels sorry for him as he appears to be a little slow on the uptake, and responds, "Objection overruled. Answer the question . . . again." "Very well, your honor. Let's hope one more time will do it."

Your point was addressed in # 43.
Heat and agitation may have speeded up the chemical process but not changed its final outcome. My test was no different than most flatheads that sit for days at a time at "room temperature" without being run at all. My test is an illustration of the results under those circumstances. Results would, no doubt, be quicker with heat and agitation but no different between the two chemicals. If you believe otherwise please provide the chemical equations and formulas as well as the laws of physics or, better still, a more "complete" test to prove such.

P.S. If you want to tear apart my leaky pump to determine the cause of its failure P.M. me your address and I'll send it to you. Looks like you're more curious about that than I am.

[Jack E/NJ]

Old Henry>>>please provide the chemical equations and formulas as well as the laws of physics or, better still, a more "complete" test to prove such.>>>

You want equations? You want laws of physics? OK, Henry, I'll give you a physical chemical equation by a famous (to most chemistry cognoscenti) dead guy named Arrhenius, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation, whose equation states that for most common chemical reactions, like acid-base or vinegar-rust, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree C increase in temperature. However! This Evapo-rust is a proprietary, allegedly chelation-type of reaction, that old Arrhenius prolly never even heard of, much less considered common. So, to see if Arrhenius's temp-dependence equation holds for Evapo-Rust's new-fangled proprietary chelation-type reaction, there's only one way to find out. Heat it! I rest my case. As for the forensic analysis on why the sudden leak, I suggest a BFH vigorously applied to the front end of the offending pump should quickly reveal the cause. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

As I said before, heat will increase the chemical reaction, just as Arrhenius said. But no more for an acidic process than a chelation one. That is the point that you are missing that I have now made three times. Three strikes and you know where you are don't you?

Hold on a minute . . .

"What did you say, Judge? . . . Objection sustained? . . . Great!"

The judge has now sustained my objection. That means I do not have to answer that question any more.

And I won't be doing nothin' with no BFH either so you can give that one up too.

[Jack E/NJ]

"Limitations of the idea of Arrhenius activation energy---Both the Arrhenius activation energy and the rate constant k are ***experimentally*** determined, and represent macroscopic reaction-specific parameters that are not simply related to threshold energies and the success of individual collisions at the molecular level. Consider a particular collision (an elementary reaction) between molecules A and B. The collision angle, the relative translational energy, the internal (particularly vibrational) energy will all determine the chance that the collision will produce a product molecule AB. Macroscopic measurements of E and k are the result of many individual collisions with differing collision parameters. To probe reaction rates at molecular level, ***experiments are conducted under near-collisional conditions*** and this subject is often called molecular reaction dynamics."

Emphasis added in triple asterisks. Heat it up, Henry! 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[Mike B]

Henry...I'd bet if you used the Evapo-rust in the engine and run it through while water was moving as well as it getting hotter, you'd not have had to wipe residue off/out of anything...but only concern I'd have doing this , is could any damage occur in the pumps?

Would certainly seem your tests show it's a much better product than vinegar...are there instructions on what needs to be done to neutralize it?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

...are there instructions on what needs to be done to neutralize it?

As Evapo-Rust is not an acid there is nothing to "neutralize." In fact, the instructions say that if, after removing all rust, you are not going to otherwise coat the metal soon, to dip it back into the Evapo-Rust and let it dry on it. That will protect it from rust until you're ready to rinse it off and coat the metal.

Again, Evapo-Rust is neither acidic nor alkaline. It is neutral pH. There is nothing to neutralize.

Originally Posted by Mike B

. . . only concern I'd have doing this , is could any damage occur in the pumps?

Evapo-Rust is like plain water to anything except rust. So, if plain water wouldn't hurt the pumps, neither would Evapo-Rust. In fact, after the Evapo-Rust is spent (meaning it has turned totally black indicating it's lost all of its power, which it will only do after multiple repeated uses) it can be flushed down the toilet it is so non-toxic.

[Mike B]

That's pretty cool-no pun intended-seems a great way to clear out a cooling system, especially since it seems to dissolve the rust, and not just make it flake off.

Nice.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Emphasis added in triple asterisks.

Jack E/NJ

Oh yeah? Well, *** and *** to you too. So there.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

That's pretty cool-no pun intended-seems a great way to clear out a cooling system, especially since it seems to dissolve the rust, and not just make it flake off.

Nice.

Yeah. Glad I never tried the acid trick before learning about it.

Only down side - it costs more than vinegar, $60.00 for five gallons compared to $25.00 for the vinegar but it can be used over and over again to de-rust up to 300 lbs. of steel per gallon so that's some compensation for the extra cost.

[TStiles]

Thanks Professor for taking the time and making the effort to share the results of your analysis with us. Enjoy the road trip!

[Old Henry]

After seeing the vinegar fail to finish the job of eating away the rust I continued pondering why it failed and finally had the thought that maybe it had lost its acidity so I dropped a pinch of baking soda into it which should have caused the usual chemical reaction. Nothing. Three pints of vinegar were neutralized by just the intake of the water pump sitting in it for several days before it even finished the job it started. Pretty poor performance in my opinion. Doesn't really predict great success in an engine block where the ratio of rusted metal to vinegar is way higher than my test was.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Binx

Henry, I believe your major buildup is calcium with a rust tint.

Lonnie

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Photos...I think lime AND rust!

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Get the rust, then the calcium or whatever it is, then another run of evap because some of the white stuff is probably protecting rust.

The "warts" were solid rust, nothing more. I checked them with a magnet then scraped some off and they were just solid rust, not calcium nor lime nor anything else.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, Very revealing thread. Thanks to everyone, and especially Old Henry, for continuing my education.

-VT/JeffH

[Binx]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The "warts" were solid rust, nothing more. I checked them with a magnet then scraped some off and they were just solid rust, not calcium nor lime nor anything else.

Well counsellor, considering your single track approach of labeling the offender as rust to the exclusion of all other possible offenders begs many questions. Did you perform any forensic tests to determine my clients (respectively referred hereto as "calcium and lime") were not present at the scene? Additionally, with respect to the condition of your water pump inlets based on your latest photos, your accused suspect's actions did not originate from this scene evidenced by the lack of pitting. Is it likely my clients "calcium and lime" were there --and possibly now everywhere throughout your entire cooling system IN ADDITION to your suspect who is leaving deposits on top of their crime thus disguising their presence. This is organized crime plain and simple!! Wouldn't I make a crappy defense lawyer? I just sold out my clients!!

Lonnie

[Old Henry]

The only "forensic" tests I performed to determine what the "warts" were made of was to first test them with very small magnets to see if they were iron or some other non-ferrous mineral and then scrape a sampling to examine and test. Both tests were sufficient "forensically" to established the total absence of your clients, Cal See-um and Lie M., at the scene of the crime.

Sorry, your clients will not be going down the river, nor up the river either for that matter. They'll just be fishing from the shore.

[Marv]

I wander if a block heater for heat and a eletric motor to spin the water pump every once in a while would help these processes?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Marv

I wander if a block heater for heat and a eletric motor to spin the water pump every once in a while would help these processes?

As I've said before, both heat and agitation would speed up the process but that's all. It is not necessary and would not otherwise make it any more effective in the long run. The Evapo-rust would eventually finish its job whereas the vinegar loses its acidity and quits before it's done.

[Old Henry]

Here's a photo of the rust wart remaining in the vinegar pump stuck to the magnets I scraped it off with. (The clear spots are where my fingers were.)

[Bertha]

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Thank's Henry... been considering it for an engine flush.

Bob