The Ford Barn

mass A man · 10-27-2011, 04:31 PM

Just a heads up when you're thinking about riveting on new brake linings: Today, I began installing my new woven type brake shoe linings onto my restored, original shoes. This is not a "new" job for me. It quickly came to me, I've been in this position last year when riveting linings. It seems most of the "big" parts houses for the Model A are enclosing the little bag of semi-hollow brass rivets of the WRONG length. They measure 5/16ths" overall length. I checked the pre-drilled holes in linings, the depth looks O.K. No paper shims being used. lining clamped to shoe, but one cannot get a well formed "mushroom" using these shorter rivets. Many times, the poor formed mushroom will break off partially or entirely! Anyway, I found ONE envelope of brake rivets in my riveting tool box which are of the perfect size. THEY measure 3/8ths" long. Just like the old ones I took out of the shoes. This tiny length discrepancy makes a WORLD of difference! SO--- check your rivet length before you get set up to rivet your linings with 3/8ths" rivets and you won't be disappointed.

AKsportcoupe · 10-27-2011, 04:41 PM

Thanks for the heads up!

1930artdeco · 10-27-2011, 05:02 PM

Where do you get the 3/8th rivets?

Mike

jkeesey · 10-27-2011, 05:03 PM

My rivetter splits the rivet into almost a dainty little flower look instead of the mushroom and I've never had a problem with their length.

mass A man · 10-27-2011, 05:30 PM

Here's a photo of what the rivet upset is supposed to look like, once on the lining and shoe. The other photo shows the head marking on the rivets I'm using, as "4-5". I have no idea where I got these rivets, sorry...as they could be many years old also. Some small cracks in the "mushroom" will not hurt anything. What I'm saying, the last 2 batches of rivets from one of the "big three" parts dealers were of the 5/16ths" wrong length. Using them, one cannot always even get the "little flower" effect. Using the 3/8ths long rivets, there is NO problem. One should not have to bang the living daylights out of the rivets!! You will end up only damaging your brake riveting tools and possibly damage the shoe.

Keith True · 10-27-2011, 05:47 PM

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I wonder if the holes are not being countersunk enough.I looked at the rivets I use on the A shoes,they are 5/16. I can use the 3/8,but I have to be absolutely sure they are in a perfectly straight line with the anvil before I step on the pedal.If not they keel over to one side before flowering out.My press does not leave a smooth upset like yours does,mine splits the rivet so it splays out in all directions.When you're working on something,does that little cut by your thumbnail hit everything you get near?

jkeesey · 10-27-2011, 05:54 PM

I have the same input as Mr. True above. I've done over 20 sets in the past 2 years and never had a problem with rivet legth, but that's also using a WWII riveter not the hand version

mass A man · 10-27-2011, 08:29 PM

Yes, the countersink may be just a "hair" shallow, although they look O.K. I think the woven linings all come pre-drilled, although I had to drill and countersink the emergency linings and I had a terrible time with the shorter rivets. (hand set riveting tools) Anyway, I think I'll try and find the 3/8ths" rivets instead of having to re-countersink all the holes. and Keith, that's a painful skin crack on my pointer finger that does get caught on everything!

Jim Parker Toronto · 10-27-2011, 10:20 PM

Solved this problem by supplying bonded linings, both in the woven and modern materials. I can also get the woven lining the right thickness for the E-brake bands bonded on! Its not that expensive when you get to use all of your lining, instead of a rivet ruining your drums at 30% wear!

Pilotdave · 10-28-2011, 08:51 AM

Jim, what's your source for bonded linings? Can you reuse the brake shoes when those linings wear down?

Jim Parker Toronto · 10-28-2011, 10:12 AM

I have a company here in the Greater Toronto Area that has done brake shoes for over 60 years, and they do them for me. I sell them to club members or anyone else that wants them. This can be done on an exchange basis or sold outright. I also install cast iron drums on the hubs and turn them true. The brake shoes can be reused after the lining is applied by removing the lining. Decent brake shoes, no wear in the pin holes, are required.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-29-2011, 06:08 AM

I find that putting a drop of oil on the rivet tool for each rivet helps to make a nice round rollover as mass A man has pictured. I use the hand tool and my vice.

10-27-2011, 04:31 PM	#1
mass A man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Danvers, Ma. Posts: 715	length "is" important! Just a heads up when you're thinking about riveting on new brake linings: Today, I began installing my new woven type brake shoe linings onto my restored, original shoes. This is not a "new" job for me. It quickly came to me, I've been in this position last year when riveting linings. It seems most of the "big" parts houses for the Model A are enclosing the little bag of semi-hollow brass rivets of the WRONG length. They measure 5/16ths" overall length. I checked the pre-drilled holes in linings, the depth looks O.K. No paper shims being used. lining clamped to shoe, but one cannot get a well formed "mushroom" using these shorter rivets. Many times, the poor formed mushroom will break off partially or entirely! Anyway, I found ONE envelope of brake rivets in my riveting tool box which are of the perfect size. THEY measure 3/8ths" long. Just like the old ones I took out of the shoes. This tiny length discrepancy makes a WORLD of difference! SO--- check your rivet length before you get set up to rivet your linings with 3/8ths" rivets and you won't be disappointed.

10-27-2011, 04:41 PM	#2
AKsportcoupe Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Gustavus, Alaska Posts: 48	Re: length "is" important! Thanks for the heads up!

10-27-2011, 05:02 PM	#3
1930artdeco Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lynden, Wa Posts: 3,565	Re: length "is" important! Where do you get the 3/8th rivets? Mike __________________ 1930 TownSedan (Briggs) 1957 Country Sedan

10-27-2011, 05:03 PM	#4
jkeesey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Glenmoore Pa Posts: 1,644	Re: length "is" important! My rivetter splits the rivet into almost a dainty little flower look instead of the mushroom and I've never had a problem with their length.

10-27-2011, 05:30 PM	#5
mass A man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Danvers, Ma. Posts: 715	Re: length "is" important! Here's a photo of what the rivet upset is supposed to look like, once on the lining and shoe. The other photo shows the head marking on the rivets I'm using, as "4-5". I have no idea where I got these rivets, sorry...as they could be many years old also. Some small cracks in the "mushroom" will not hurt anything. What I'm saying, the last 2 batches of rivets from one of the "big three" parts dealers were of the 5/16ths" wrong length. Using them, one cannot always even get the "little flower" effect. Using the 3/8ths long rivets, there is NO problem. One should not have to bang the living daylights out of the rivets!! You will end up only damaging your brake riveting tools and possibly damage the shoe. Last edited by mass A man; 11-01-2011 at 11:21 AM.

10-27-2011, 05:47 PM	#6
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 3,018	Re: length "is" important! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I wonder if the holes are not being countersunk enough.I looked at the rivets I use on the A shoes,they are 5/16. I can use the 3/8,but I have to be absolutely sure they are in a perfectly straight line with the anvil before I step on the pedal.If not they keel over to one side before flowering out.My press does not leave a smooth upset like yours does,mine splits the rivet so it splays out in all directions.When you're working on something,does that little cut by your thumbnail hit everything you get near?

10-27-2011, 05:54 PM	#7
jkeesey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Glenmoore Pa Posts: 1,644	Re: length "is" important! I have the same input as Mr. True above. I've done over 20 sets in the past 2 years and never had a problem with rivet legth, but that's also using a WWII riveter not the hand version

10-27-2011, 08:29 PM	#8
mass A man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Danvers, Ma. Posts: 715	Re: length "is" important! Yes, the countersink may be just a "hair" shallow, although they look O.K. I think the woven linings all come pre-drilled, although I had to drill and countersink the emergency linings and I had a terrible time with the shorter rivets. (hand set riveting tools) Anyway, I think I'll try and find the 3/8ths" rivets instead of having to re-countersink all the holes. and Keith, that's a painful skin crack on my pointer finger that does get caught on everything!

10-27-2011, 10:20 PM	#9
Jim Parker Toronto Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,289	Re: length "is" important! Solved this problem by supplying bonded linings, both in the woven and modern materials. I can also get the woven lining the right thickness for the E-brake bands bonded on! Its not that expensive when you get to use all of your lining, instead of a rivet ruining your drums at 30% wear!

10-28-2011, 08:51 AM	#10
Pilotdave Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Grafton, MA Posts: 1,229	Re: length "is" important! Jim, what's your source for bonded linings? Can you reuse the brake shoes when those linings wear down?

10-28-2011, 10:12 AM	#11
Jim Parker Toronto Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,289	Re: length "is" important! I have a company here in the Greater Toronto Area that has done brake shoes for over 60 years, and they do them for me. I sell them to club members or anyone else that wants them. This can be done on an exchange basis or sold outright. I also install cast iron drums on the hubs and turn them true. The brake shoes can be reused after the lining is applied by removing the lining. Decent brake shoes, no wear in the pin holes, are required.

10-29-2011, 06:08 AM	#12
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: length "is" important! I find that putting a drop of oil on the rivet tool for each rivet helps to make a nice round rollover as mass A man has pictured. I use the hand tool and my vice.