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Old 02-12-2017, 12:45 PM   #1
OLD AS I
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Default 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Have my engine on a stand, is my intention to have it running on stand then transferr into car. Question, I get no oil pressure during turning it over, no plugs instd., engine ass'y by chap very knowledgeable, he assy'd lower end with oil pan attached, instd heads, cam, and lifters. Turning it over with 6 volt battery I get 0 on the mechanical gauge. I filled the oil filter and crank case, oil pump was primed with STP. Didn't fill oil hoses from filter to pan or filter to block. Chap who did work away on vacation, what can I check, where do I start, suggestions greatly appreciated, should it not show some level of oil pressure ?
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I had the same problem once and the answer was to not fill the oil filter with oil. It seems it can cause and air lock. Try putting a new filter on it empty and crank it over.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:01 PM   #3
Jack E/NJ
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Is that a plastic line to an out-of-view mechanical gauge? If so, looks like it's not filled with oil yet. Jack E/NJ
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

A quick way to check the oil pump is to remove the oil sending unit from the top of the pump outlet. Pore in some trans/rear gear lub. cap outlet turn over engine. Pressure should come up if the pump is working.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Not sure if itīs a 95% filtration or just spin-on conversion.
If itīs a spin-on conversion is the restrictor in place ?
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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If it is a 95% filter system, make sure the oil from the pump goes to the inlet side of the filter. If the lines are swapped the backflow valve in the filter will stop the flow.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I think Murre and 40cpe are on to something. Wouldn't it be better to fit your mechanical oil gauge to where the oil pressure sender is installed?
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Thanks for all the comments here. Replies are, Jack E/NJ ...yes, thats a plastic line to mechanical gauge, no oil in at after turning engine over. flatheadmurre .... its a 95% filtration not just spin-on conversion, return line comes out of side of oil pan. 40cpe ....have line coming out of side of oil pan connected to in-flow of oil filter. captkirk .... have mechanical oil pressure gauge connected to outlet in block where it was originally for original electric gauge, tee'd into that outlet in block. Am hoping I dont have to remove oil pan to solve the issue,
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I'm not at my engine right now but thinking Ive done something STUPID, is the outlet at the block near the outlet for the pressure gauge the feed to the oil filter system, if so Ive got the oil filter lines reversed ? Am ashamed to ask this, if thats my problem old age has really hit me, IT SUCKS GETTING OLDER !
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Just take the filter off and see if oil comes out of the filter base. If it does, it is connected backwards. If not, you have other problems.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

If itīs a full flow system pressure comes from pump out of the pan through oilfilter and into the block.
40cpe has the testing metod for you...just crank and se if you get oilflow.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Personally, I wouldn't use the bypass filter at all and would just put a gauge on the oil pressure port on the back of the engine there. If you do, you'll need the restrictor orrifice in the line to the inlet of the filter housing. If you bypass the filter then you still need a restrictor to keep the pressure up in the system. When you fill that filter canister, it slowly runs back into the pan by gravity flow so you don't really need to put any oil in there but you need to make sure you have enough to fill it in the engine sump so there is plenty of oil for the run.
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Something's wrong here, never heard of a 95% system having any connection to the oil pan! And if it did no idea how it could possibly work!!! The oil goes from the oil pump through the filter and back to the main oil galley input. Any connection to the oil pan would just bypass the engine oil system and dump it all back into the oil pan.

If instead it is a full flow oil system, the oil would go from the oil pump through the side of the oil pan to the filter inlet. Then from the filter to the main engine oil galley inlet. You really need to know what type of system you are dealing with here!

My first guess would be a full flow system with the filter connections reversed.

Last edited by JSeery; 02-13-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

The older engines are set up that way but later ones have the return flow fitted to the oil dip stick boss and the 8BA filter return is fitted to the side of the block just above the pan rail. This applies to the stock factory bypass filtration systems only

Most full flow set ups have a direct connection from the pump through the filter going through a bulkhead fitting in the oil pan then from the filter back through the opened up boss direct to the main oil flow port. The block porting has to be set up for that or it can bypass.

The 95% set ups generally have full flow from the pump to the rear main and the oil then flows out to the filter & back to the block. These also have to have the porting in the block properly directed to prevent oil starvation due to bypassing between the ports.

With that big line coming from the oil pan, it sort of looks like it's set up for full flow. If the oil is routed from the pump back to the pan then none of it will get through to the bearings. Full flow set ups usually open up the back boss on the back of the engine above the small OEM ports for oil pressure and filter feed. Something needs to be clarified on this so it gets connected properly.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 02-13-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Looking at your picture is it safe to say the line coming from the pan is hooked up to the oil pump as the pressure side of the pump.If this is correct looking at the spin on adapter the inlet port and outlet port appear also to be in the correct positions.
L/h port on adapter is pressure in and the other port is oil out to engine oil passages.
Do you have the horizontal passage in the block equipped with a set screw to isolate the other two passages? 95% passages don't utilize a pressure line on the pan.They do require a modified pump to now let the pressure port to be plumbed out the side of the pan.What was the system you purchased referred to be. Loosen the line on the pan and confirm oil flow out of the pump and let us know what you discover.

R
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Well, looking at the photo it is definitely not a 95% system, the boss at the rear of the block is not even drilled. Must be a full flow style with the modified oil pump that routes the oil pressure out the side of the oil pan. That line would be the input to the filter, it would be the pressure line, not a return line. If not, then this setup will not work. The line going from the filter to the fitting where the original oil pressure fitting goes would be the oil feed to the engine oil gallery.

Like Ronnie (and others) have said, start at the oil pan fitting and see where you have oil pressure. Oil pan fitting, the filter input, then filter output, then fitting at rear of block.

Last edited by JSeery; 02-13-2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

First thing I would do is take all the oil lines off,then crank the engine,oil should come out somewhere,on my FULL flow setup if I try to get the oil pressure with a full oil filter on a new motor,it takes a while,I remove the filter and crank until the oil is at the filter head,then fit the oil filter that I have first pre filled .
Another slow but good way is to fit a small funnel to the oil port where the gauge sender goes,fill that with oil,and turn the engine BACKWARDS,this will suck the oil into and prime the pump.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

$(KGrHqZHJC!E+ZueTi29BP515HSiEQ~~60_35.jpg
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Another slow but good way is to fit a small funnel to the oil port where the gauge sender goes,fill that with oil,and turn the engine BACKWARDS,this will suck the oil into and prime the pump.
Lawrie
Don't think that will work on this setup Lawrie. The passage between the gauge sender fitting and the oil pump should be plugged, otherwise the oil would just go in a loop.

A lot of assuming on my part here!!! but, assume it is this type of setup.
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File Type: jpg Full-Flow-Oil-Filter-Pump-Kit-For-Ford-_1.jpg (32.8 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg 1565722_orig.jpg (135.2 KB, 77 views)

Last edited by JSeery; 02-13-2017 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

There is a lot of confusion here because you stated 95% system. It is not a 95% system, it is a full flow system. The instructions with the kit says DO NOT fill your filter before it is attached. As noted, as a check, remove the line where it exits the pan, crank the engine to see if you get oil. It might take a little time to prime the pump. I always crank the engine with the spark plugs out until I get pressure.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by oldasi View Post
I'm not at my engine right now but thinking Ive done something STUPID, is the outlet at the block near the outlet for the pressure gauge the feed to the oil filter system, if so Ive got the oil filter lines reversed ? Am ashamed to ask this, if thats my problem old age has really hit me, IT SUCKS GETTING OLDER !
You have them hooked up right. The oil flows out of the pump, out of the hose on the pan to the block. The internal passage in the oil pump is blocked, so all of the flow comes out of the pan.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Originally the pump fed up to a small gallery at the top of the pump that is connected to a feed for the aft main bearing and then the oil continued to feed up up to the dual port boss on the back of the block. The top port is is in line with the feed that was originally from the pump. The side port is in line with the horizontal feed over to the main oil gallery tube that pretty much feeds everything else.

When they modify the pump, it should have the original internal outlet closed off where it exits the gear chamber. The new outlet would go through a fitting plumbed through the side of the oil pan and then plumbed up to the filter then on to the dual port boss. I imagine it can be plumbed to either of the two ports. This would still allow lubricant to come back down from above and lubricate the rear main. If it is an 8BA, the pump should still have a pressure regulator there where the feed goes to the rear main. If it's an older engine, they could do away with that and continue to use the normal regulator at the front of the block. There would be no need to plug any ports in the dual port boss if it is set up this way. I think the plug in the horizontal port would only be necessary if it was plumbed for a 95% type filtration system and a new port would be drilled into the gallery feed to separate the flow.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Rotorwrench, did you see the photos I posted in #18? They take the pressure off the bottom of the pump.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

You can see the outside but you can't see what they did to plug the inside. The L-head V8s were all designed to use the the oil pump fit up in the block to form a passage to the rear main plus there's the regulator.

The only draw back is plumbing up the exit from the oil sump. A person needs a lock-o-seal and an AN bulkhead fitting with a nut or something there to prevent oil seepage or at least minimize it.

The 95% set up was used by Ford & GM (and likely a few others) for a long time and they work pretty well. A person just has to be certain he plumbs it correctly to prevent oil starvation.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:40 PM   #24
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Perhaps the idler gear is missing----or a new cam didn't get the gear put on to drive the oil pump

2 things I have seen with modified oiling systems----lines going into the filter wrong and drainback valve stops flow---
Little plastic plugs were put in openings and not removed---on one engine it was found a long ways from where it was put--oil pressure pushed it down the passage and it blocked off the front main---it siezed
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Cant thank you guys enough for all the comments, been unable to do anything but read the replies here, thanks again to all. First I have to mention its a full flow system not 95% as I mentioned, no doubt I'm doing to many things at once and to much on my mind, I have a lot of confidence with the chap who assyd it for me, yes, I know we all can screw up but feel its my screw up till I find otherwise.
Going to start by removing oil lines at filter and hitting starter button and see if I get oil coming out, if nothing, remove fittings at block where pressure gauge and line connects, and hitting starter, hopefully something shows up then, if nothing will repost here. Again thanks to all
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Don't expect to get oil immediately.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Put 12 volts on it for a couple of minutes. If it will pump you will have pressure by then.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I agree with the last two guys; when I first spun my '51 Merc over, it seemed to take forever to build pressure on the gauge. I don't think it was a couple of minutes, but it seemed like a loooong time.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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I agree with the last two guys; when I first spun my '51 Merc over, it seemed to take forever to build pressure on the gauge. I don't think it was a couple of minutes, but it seemed like a loooong time.
I timed mine, it was 45 seconds until I got 10 pounds from the pressure relief in the filter. I had the spark plugs out and filled the filter before cranking the engine over, only took a few more for engine pressure at 40 #. That does seem like a long time listening to that starter run.

I only mentioned 2 minutes to give it plenty of time.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I know this diagram of a more traditional fullflow setup has been posted before. But might be useful to post again here.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:38 PM   #31
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

That is actually a 95% flow diagram since the rear main still gets the oil first. Full flow completely bypasses all the pump oil output to the filter first and then back into the block.

The only thing that is sort of a worry to me about the full flow is that the pressure through the filter is unregulated. With the 95% set up the pressure is regulated first before it exits the block to the filter.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:51 PM   #32
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by oldasi View Post
Going to start by removing oil lines at filter and hitting starter button and see if I get oil coming out, if nothing, remove fittings at block where pressure gauge and line connects, and hitting starter, hopefully something shows up then, if nothing will repost here. Again thanks to all
Going backwards! You won't get any oil out of the fitting at the rear of the block. That is the oil input, not the oil output. The oil input is from the side of the oil pan. The oil route is from the side of the oil pan to the filter and then from the filter to to the rear fitting on the block.

LOL, there is a whole lot of confusion going on here! Need to get the direction of the oil flow stright so you know where to check.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:04 PM   #33
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
I know this diagram of a more traditional fullflow setup has been posted before. But might be useful to post again here.
BINGO!
Also,..make sure that the plug, that separates the oil,(in the diagram) is in there, through the horizontal hole is in there!
Dudley
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

rotor>>>That is actually a 95% flow diagram since the rear main still gets the oil first.>>>

As DJ pointed out, that little plug in there makes it otherwise. 8^) Jack E/NJ
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

If it were me, I'm thinking I'd wait for the engine rebuilder to get back from vacation and go through this process together.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:54 PM   #36
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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BINGO!
Also,..make sure that the plug, that separates the oil,(in the diagram) is in there, through the horizontal hole is in there!
Dudley
Guys, he does not have a 95% system and it will not have the plug shown. This is just confusing things beyond belief.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Like I said in the first post. The filter must not be filled with oil. It must be empty. It causes a hydraulic lock in the system. I had the same problem the first time I changed my oil and spin on filter. I have Mark Kirby's full flow system. Gave Mark a call about the no oil pressure problem and that's what he told me to do. It worked. Have changed my oil and filter several times since then and no more oil pressure problems.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
That is actually a 95% flow diagram since the rear main still gets the oil first. Full flow completely bypasses all the pump oil output to the filter first and then back into the block.

The only thing that is sort of a worry to me about the full flow is that the pressure through the filter is unregulated. With the 95% set up the pressure is regulated first before it exits the block to the filter.
Not so. The pressure relief is still active in the pump, just like normal.
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:05 PM   #39
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Guys, he does not have a 95% system and it will not have the plug shown. This is just confusing things beyond belief.

Seery wow these wizards that are posting about the flow design in question have no clue what the post about that is quite obvious. 95% really

R
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Boy, I'm sure glad I left the stock bypass systems on both of the 8BA's I'm currently building. Given the way these cars are driven and the conditions we experience, I think a bypass system is a lot better any of these "Full-Flow" or "95%" systems. They are overkill.

Think about it; these cars benefit more from the finer filtration the bypass system gives rather than from the ability the the other systems give you by getting the big chunks out faster. Plus, when you consider that most owners change their oil at (probably) less than 1000 miles intervals, it becomes a moot point.

Last edited by tubman; 02-14-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #41
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

What 'tubman' said....
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Not so. The pressure relief is still active in the pump, just like normal.
Whether it is internally regulated or reverse flow regulated depends on where the plug is inside the pump. I've never seen a diagram of the pump modification for the full flow system. All I see is the exit port from the bottom of the gear chamber. If the original outlet inside the pump is plugged above the relief valve, then it would regulate. It has to be plugged somewhere in there or it will still be oiling the rear main bearing before it gets to the filter. That would make it an overly complicated 95% filter system and not a full flow.

I wonder if anyone has a description on how the full flow pump is modified. That would answer this question.
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:55 PM   #43
Bored&Stroked
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

To each his own as far as what you prefer. The system shown is a 100% full-flow system and the pump has been modified to output 100% of the oil out the bottom of the pump, through the oil-pan and then into the full-flow filter.

I have this same system and it will take awhile for the oil to get to the filter, fill it and achieve oil pressure. So, like others said - pull the plugs, pull the filter and crank it over until you see oil coming into the filter mount. Put the filter back on - crank it over some more (and it will take awhile to fill the filter) - then you'll finally achieve oil pressure. Yes - it takes awhile the first time for sure. I have an oil pressure gauge right on the bottom of my 'custom Fram looking' filter - so I can be on the side of the car and see the pressure.

Now while we're at it, the '95%' claim is a bit much anyway -- I look at it more like 66% - as the rear main gets unfiltered oil and who knows exactly how much of the oil in that location then pressurizes the rod journal next to it, or goes back up through the cam bearing and into the oil pressure tube. (2 outta 3 mains = 66% to me)

The only reason I run a full-flow filter is to keep crap out of my main bearings (yes, the rear for sure). Having 100% filtered oil makes me happy - but setting up the system is a big pain in the rear. (at least in my case - as I wanted it to look as close to Fram stock as possible. I still need to make hard lines for it, just haven't gotten to that little project!)

2015-07-04 13.16.22 copy.jpg

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Old 02-14-2017, 07:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I wonder if anyone has a description on how the full flow pump is modified. That would answer this question.
As you can see in the picture, the pump is modified so that the stock output port from the gears is plugged (the one that goes through the pump body) - then there are two different methods that are used to modify the pump bottom:

1) Motor City: They make a thick steel plate that replaces the original plate - with the necessary holes and fittings tapped into it.

2) The One I Have: Uses the stock steel plate (with a hole in it), then a secondary aluminum plate is mounted on top of it -- with the necessary output ports and fittings in it. The reason I like this method is that the stock steel plate is hardened and I'm not sure the one from MCF is/was. I don't want the plate to wear.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:05 PM   #45
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Dale, I have only one question;. Where does the "crap" that you want to keep out of your rear main come from? I can't see any responsible builder leaving ANYTHING like that in the engine after a build, and I don't see it coming in from the environment. I'd rather see the finer stuff filtered out rather than worrying about big chunks. We don't do a lot of driving on dirt roads anymore.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:20 PM   #46
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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tubman>>>Boy, I'm sure glad I left the stock bypass systems >>>

Boy, I'm sure glad I left the stock no-filter system on mine! 8^) Jack E/NJ
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Jack, what are you trying to say here? Surely, everyone that I have heard believes that a bypass system is better than none.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:43 PM   #48
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

tubman>>>I think a bypass system is a lot better any of these "Full-Flow" or "95%" systems. They are overkill.>>>

I think changing my 5w-20 every 2000 miles or less is a lot better than the complications of adding filtration to an engine that wasn't originally designed to have much more oil filtration than a pickup screen. 8^) Jack E/NJ
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:51 PM   #49
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I finally found an old hot rod mag article that shows how they plug that long slot passage on the oil pump body. They just welded it up. I wonder if all of them are set up this way? A person would have to do some work every time they replace an old worn out pump. I think Ford and GM & maybe others just having a 95% (or what ever %) bypass was good enough. Having to purge the system at every oil change sounds like a PITA to me. I like to fill my filters with oil when I put them on. Never heard a rod knock yet and PSI comes right up.

I'm keeping the old OEM bypass system for my stockers. All the other stuff gets confusing and that's when bearings get oil starved and burned up. I don't get enough miles on my old antiques to even worry about the amount of miles on the oil. I just change it every 6-months whether it has 2000 miles or not.
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:18 PM   #50
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

This is a cut and past of the FAQ's

http://www.flatheadspeedandmachine.com/faq.html

They explain how the stock pump is modified to make it not lube the rear main like the oem design ford pump.All the oil is directed from the pump out to the fitting on the oil pan and up to the spin on filter adapter.From there out of the filter and into the block.Other than this the internal bypass is not disturbed.This is the line to be removed to confirm the pump has flow. Then trouble shoot from there.

this what they did 30 years ago
http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw...ilterBills.htm

R

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Old 02-14-2017, 08:37 PM   #51
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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tubman>>>I think a bypass system is a lot better any of these "Full-Flow" or "95%" systems. They are overkill.>>>

I think changing my 5w-20 every 2000 miles or less is a lot better than the complications of adding filtration to an engine that wasn't originally designed to have much more oil filtration than a pickup screen. 8^) Jack E/NJ
I am primarily an 8BA guy, and I don't think that one of them ever left the factory without a bypass system. Ford offered them earlier as well. Don't we all believe that the factory engineers knew what they were doing? I think a similar situation existed with just about all of the other manufacturers who came to the same conclusion at the same time.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Quote:
this what they did 30 years ago
http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw...ilterBills.htm
How time flies !

Another thing to think about is that today's detergent oil is designed to keep the trash in suspension and the full flow (or bypass) filter can then remove it. The trash in the non-detergent oil would settle out and drop to the bottom of the pan as sludge. I remember being surprised at how clean the first engine was that I took apart that had been using detergent oil.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:26 PM   #53
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
As you can see in the picture, the pump is modified so that the stock output port from the gears is plugged (the one that goes through the pump body) - then there are two different methods that are used to modify the pump bottom:

1) Motor City: They make a thick steel plate that replaces the original plate - with the necessary holes and fittings tapped into it.

2) The One I Have: Uses the stock steel plate (with a hole in it), then a secondary aluminum plate is mounted on top of it -- with the necessary output ports and fittings in it. The reason I like this method is that the stock steel plate is hardened and I'm not sure the one from MCF is/was. I don't want the plate to wear.
I have had my MCF full flow system installed for over 25 years and is still going strong. I do like your setup though. I too have a problem with the naming of the 95% oil system.

Last edited by flatjack9; 02-14-2017 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:29 PM   #54
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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I finally found an old hot rod mag article that shows how they plug that long slot passage on the oil pump body. They just welded it up. I wonder if all of them are set up this way? A person would have to do some work every time they replace an old worn out pump. I think Ford and GM & maybe others just having a 95% (or what ever %) bypass was good enough. Having to purge the system at every oil change sounds like a PITA to me. I like to fill my filters with oil when I put them on. Never heard a rod knock yet and PSI comes right up.

I'm keeping the old OEM bypass system for my stockers. All the other stuff gets confusing and that's when bearings get oil starved and burned up. I don't get enough miles on my old antiques to even worry about the amount of miles on the oil. I just change it every 6-months whether it has 2000 miles or not.
I don't think you can wear out these pumps. Once the system is up and operational, changing filters does not require purging anything. It is just the original start up that takes a little time.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:42 PM   #55
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

from a guy with no pressure too a debate on filters and pumps. Alright in my book.

No motor with a 3ft hole to the motor is going to show pressure without some running. Gauge too block is the ticket.

Prime that motor
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:10 AM   #56
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Dale, I have only one question;. Where does the "crap" that you want to keep out of your rear main come from? I can't see any responsible builder leaving ANYTHING like that in the engine after a build, and I don't see it coming in from the environment. I'd rather see the finer stuff filtered out rather than worrying about big chunks. We don't do a lot of driving on dirt roads anymore.
Couple things: First of all, I'd agree . . . in a perfect world, would never have an issue - but I've seen a lot of funny stuff happen - especially if you have a problem you didn't anticipate (like losing a rod bearing) - or some little piece of crap, buried in some damn place you couldn't see and your pressure washer didn't get too - somehow coming loose and going through a bearing. Lastly, I cut my filters apart and check them for signs of bearing issues. Keep in mind that I'm running 21A rods and ancient full-floater bearings - I try to pick the best ones I can find, but who knows how they're going to work out. (I'm kind of an abusive fella!).

Lastly on filtration in general: Today, we all use detergent oil - the 'sump' isn't the collector of sludge and crap like it used to be. Anybody whose taken apart an old flathead with tens of thousands of miles on it (running non-detergent oil) - knows what I'm talking about. You can use a putty knife and a spool to clean the crap up. So - where is all that crap going today? It stays in suspension and is running through your oil, pump, bearings, etc..

Modern engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles - and they all have full-flow filters on them. And I am perfectly aware that we can't compare those miles to ours - very different engine management systems. But, the oil pumps and galleys in these engines aren't really any different than our flatheads - same basic designs, same oiling systems - all with an external filter. They wouldn't put them on the cars if they didn't think they needed them.

So - I'll run my full-flow filter on this engine and we'll see how well it does. Would I suspect that I'd be safe with a '66%' filter - probably, just wanted to go this route instead.

Whew - too much coffee this AM . . . better get my butt to work!

B&S
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:17 AM   #57
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

B&S, by the way, that is a slick filter setup you have there!
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:26 AM   #58
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I still don't totally agree that you are going to lose 34% of the oil through the port to the rear main and aft cam bearing. If the rear main. rear con rods, and cam bearing are in good condition, they will slow down a good bit of that flow. If it lost very much pressure, it would show up on your pressure gauge. There is a lot more flow going on elsewhere than that. There are two more cam and main bearing/con rod sets plus all the tappets, timing gears, and the pump push rod. 90% filtration might be more accurate but there are too many flow factors to even be able to calculate it with concerns for individual bearing condition at any point in the life of an engine.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 02-16-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:41 AM   #59
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Not sure that actual amount (% of filtration) is important as far as identifying the type of system is concerned. It is a less than full flow system vs a full flow system. For ID purposes it has been referred to as the 95% for a long time! I think of it as an ID and not a documented fact as to the percentage of oil that passes through the filter per unit of time. Attempting to rename it would most likely just add to the confusion when looking at archived articles on the subject. Ford seemed to be happy with the non-full flow filtration systems in this era. I would have to agree that a full flow system is superior, but then the so called 95% system is much simpler to achieve. I use the 95% system myself mainly because it is easy to remotely hide the filter.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:46 AM   #60
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Most all of the manufacturers had the bypass type back in the early era through the post war years. The next improvement is what is generally referred to as the partial flow filtration system was used by Ford and by GM. and others well up into the more modern era. This would provide a more thorough filtration put still allow some flow if the filter started to get clogged.

I think most manufacturers were worried that the filter would plug up and cause starvation. This fear likely governed design changes for a long period before the full flow set ups came along. Spin on filters for aircraft have an internal bypass valve that will open at a higher than normal differential so that the engine will continue to get flow if the filter media is clogged. I'm not sure if any automotive types have this feature but many do have the anti drain back check valve set up. In aviation, you want all you can get for as long as you can get it. We cut the filters open at each oil change (every 50-hours) to look for metallic content as well as abnormal carbon build up the will indicate an internal engine problem.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:30 PM   #61
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Please forgive me if this is a stupid newby question. I see there is a .060 orifice in the 8BA oil fitting to the stock filter. Would there be any benefit to running a high flow pump and a bigger orifice to get more flow through the filter and maintain engine oil pressure?

To circulate more oil through the filter?

Scott
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

I don't know if it would work, but it is an interesting question that should be asked. An 80 lb pump and a .080 orifice? Don't know; just thinking aloud. Is the 80 lb pump a high volume pump? It would make a difference.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:49 AM   #63
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

My thought is if a high volume pump is not needed, it would just put the extra volume over a relief valve creating heat and wasting power.

So instead of pumping it over a relief, put the additional flow through the stock bypass filter.

Like I said, I'm a newb to Flatheads but not to mechanics. Just a thought and I'm sorry if this is old news. I need to rebuild my engine in the near future and I'm considering all my options.

Scott
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:49 AM   #64
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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BINGO!
Also,..make sure that the plug, that separates the oil,(in the diagram) is in there, through the horizontal hole is in there!
Dudley
Okay,..I screwed up,...re-looked at the photo again.
I do agree about the "air lock" with were the filter is mounted,..BUT, the
port that comes from the oil pump(original) has to be plugged,...correct !
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:29 AM   #65
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

Iīve been thinking about the full/bypass filter for a while and i really like the filtration of a bypass but would like the oil going into the engine to be free of any measurable size leftovers...
So my thinking goes to replacing the oilpickup screen with a steelmesh suctionfilter intended for hydraulic pumps...just have to find out how bad it will behave on a real cold morning startup.
Anything i missed making this aproach a no no ?
Sorry for going off the topic a bit...
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:53 AM   #66
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Default Re: 59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

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Quote:
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Okay,..I screwed up,...re-looked at the photo again.
I do agree about the "air lock" with were the filter is mounted,..BUT, the
port that comes from the oil pump(original) has to be plugged,...correct !
Believe the oil passage is pluged in the oil pump itself and not the block. There are several previous post in this thread about how it is done.

#44 & #50 are two.

Last edited by JSeery; 02-16-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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