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Old 01-18-2022, 07:04 PM   #1
Shoebox
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Default Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

As I continue to collect needed parts for the engine build going into my '51 Tudor, I come to the subject of piston rings. Although probably overkill, I'm going to use Ross pistons. Depending on what oversize I decide on, the availability of conventional rings, like Grant and Hastings, which I have used in the past, and the Metric ring packs that have been talked about here in the past are available. Any thoughts, opinions, etc. most welcome. If I have not mentioned something important please let me know. Thanks guys.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:39 PM   #2
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If you decide on Ross forged pistons, expect a little noise till the engine warms up and most likely a little oil consumption due to the piston to wall clearance required, not my first choice for a street Engine, for the street there are many good options in cast pistons, Egge for one has some quality cast pistons. others here will offer their experiences.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:59 PM   #3
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Give some thought to total seal piston rings, an over kill but good.
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Old 01-18-2022, 09:27 PM   #4
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RE: Ross Pistons

I definitely prefer modern metric ring packages over the old Grant/Hastings stuff.

I've used both TotalSeal rings (worked really well) and also other metric ring packs in 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 sizes. There are only certain stocking piston sizes that can be bought with metric rings. BUT, if you call their sales support crew, you can discuss your minimum bore size and then look at the available metric ring sizes and they'll make a custom piston diameter to match the rings. This is what I tend to do these days.

If you go through their sales folks (see if a guy named 'Ed' is still there - he is very helpful), you'll usually see only a small upcharge (like $40 or so) for a custom piston size.
Then you can go to places like Summit Racing and reference the Sales Engineer and have them order the right stuff for you (they'll probably call Ed) - getting the decent price from Summit (plus the up charge).

The metric rings result is less friction loss, are made from better materials (moly top ring) - no reason to NOT use them. As noted above, my resulting ring pack is usually 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 mm . . . though sometimes the top rings might be 1.2 or 1.5.

You can do a bit of research before you call them and look at common metric ring sizes that are close to what you want to bore too - then convert to inches if you need to see what sizes are available as compared to "normal" USA over bores.

Example: I have a 3.375" bore racing block that I want to put new pistons into. I looked up ring sizes and there are tons of 86 mm rings available. So, you divide 86 by 25.4 and you get the bore size in inches. The result is a 3.3858 bore . . . just .010 over my current bore. When I order pistons, it will be for 86mm rings. The block will NOT be bored until I have pistons in hand . . .

Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 01-20-2022 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:17 PM   #5
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Are cast pistons available with a metric ring pack? Or are you forced to use a forged piston like Ross? The application is a street motor, not racing.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:22 PM   #6
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You'll have to talk to the piston manufacturers - to see if they offer metric ring packs and or pistons sized for common metric rings. The challenge with most manufacturers is the minute you say "custom size" or "custom anything" - you really get whacked on price.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:17 AM   #7
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Talking to a piston manufacture is like talking to a brick wall!!
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:34 AM   #8
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Talking to a piston manufacture is like talking to a brick wall!!
Don't agree. The folks at Ross and Wiseco were extremely helpful.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 01-20-2022 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:39 AM   #9
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Agree with Bored & Stroked in every way. I also use torque plate to hone. I feel this is very important.
Cheers
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Old 01-19-2022, 12:20 PM   #10
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Agree with Bored & Stroked in every way. I also use torque plate to hone. I feel this is very important.
Cheers
Tony
Do you use an aluminum or a steel torque plate? I'm going to make an aluminum one on the NC mill - as I use aluminum heads so this makes sense to me. I'll probably groove it for o-ring material as well - so I can also use it for a pressure test plate.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:21 PM   #11
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I made my torque plate by boring the guts out of an old cast iron head.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

Back on topic "piston rings":
Seems to me that for a mild performance motor, the ideal piston/ring setup would be a hypereutectic cast piston to (minimize clearance) with a metric ring stack (less friction & better sealing) plus the compression height and dome shape to achieve proper piston/head clearance. Such pistons do not appear to be readily available. Would be nice to know otherwise.
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:49 AM   #13
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I made mine like Lawrie did. Talked to both Ross and Egge, their solution was mega dollars. Ross wanted me to buy 4 pistons for one replacement piston.
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Old 01-20-2022, 12:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

Hypereutectic 3-ring pistons were offered for a while but then disappeared. Either sales were dismal or there were problems in service but either way, they are no longer on the market.
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Old 01-20-2022, 01:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

I would ask my self these questions.
1. How many miles a year driven. Most Classic cars see a limited miles you don't need to build it for 100K miles. Cast pistons and standard rings will work.
2. Rpm wanted. If you are going for high rpm then forged or hyper pistons are needed.
3. Boost are you planning on blower/super charger or turbo then a high quality piston is needed.
4.Carb or injection the original fuel system washed down the cylinder wall so a good quality ring is very important.
One thing to note is a chrome molly ring set will take up to 10K miles to fully seat.
Just a few questions we ask customers at the machine shop. Don't over build.
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Old 01-20-2022, 01:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

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Do you use an aluminum or a steel torque plate? I'm going to make an aluminum one on the NC mill - as I use aluminum heads so this makes sense to me. I'll probably groove it for o-ring material as well - so I can also use it for a pressure test plate.
Aluminum. It has steel inserts. Very reasonably priced and cut out for valves so I can also use to pressure test. The guy will make any changes at no cost other than shipping. Dale I will send you his info. Very nice piece.
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Old 01-20-2022, 02:44 PM   #17
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Aluminum. It has steel inserts. Very reasonably priced and cut out for valves so I can also use to pressure test. The guy will make any changes at no cost other than shipping. Dale I will send you his info. Very nice piece.
Hey Thanks Tony! Can you drop me a picture of the one you have? Might be easier to just buy one from somebody who already has them designed, versus making them myself (even though I have a 3D CAD Model for heads).

Appreciate the help!
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Old 01-20-2022, 05:29 PM   #18
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As always, big Thank You to all who shared thoughts/opinions on this subject. As I mentioned in my OP, the use of Ross pistons in this engine is an overkill, but going a bit further, their price is not THAT much more than a set of say, Egge. The clearance, isn't that much more, particularly is a torque plate is used for honing, and well, they are such a wonderfully machined piece. But, the Rings, I just want to use something more modern, less friction, better seal, ect. I will call Egge and try to find out what combinations might be available.
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Old 01-20-2022, 06:13 PM   #19
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As always, big Thank You to all who shared thoughts/opinions on this subject. As I mentioned in my OP, the use of Ross pistons in this engine is an overkill, but going a bit further, their price is not THAT much more than a set of say, Egge. The clearance, isn't that much more, particularly is a torque plate is used for honing, and well, they are such a wonderfully machined piece. But, the Rings, I just want to use something more modern, less friction, better seal, ect. I will call Egge and try to find out what combinations might be available.
Shoebox,

I could be wrong, but I do believe all Ross pistons can be ordered with metric ring packs. There may be an uncharge, but I believe they do offer it.

I also wouldn't rule out Arias pistons as well.

Tim
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:00 PM   #20
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Tim,
Yes, from an exchange I had with one of their guys a few months back, I got the impression they could do most anything you want.
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Old 01-21-2022, 01:28 PM   #21
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Hypereutectic 3-ring pistons were offered for a while but then disappeared. Either sales were dismal or there were problems in service but either way, they are no longer on the market.

Just a mention, I spotted hypereutectic 3 ring pistons in Speedways catalog, in the flathead stuff section.
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Old 01-21-2022, 04:32 PM   #22
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Ross makes an excellent piston,,,,,,well worth the money,,,,,if you need it .
Any real high performance application would definitely benefit from them .

For a stock type rebuild,,,,,cast are more than enough ,,,,,maybe 120 horsepower?
Even 150 hp,,,,,,although I can’t imagine a stock type rebuild making that much power.
Cast are good to about 400 HP .

Egge makes an excellent product,,,,,a very good quality cast piston.
I bought their 4 ring pistons and plan on only running 3 rings with them .
They were about half the cost of the Ross,,,,,I bought the factory type rings too .
Saved a lot of money,,,,,,but still have quality parts,,,,at least for my application .

I’m sure the metric rings are great in a race engine,,,,,,,you would never know it on the street ,,,,,complete overkill .
Also,,,,,,for a stock type rebuild,,,,,,,boring with deck plates will never be appreciated.
Just more money,,,,and you will never realize any power increase.

Again,,,,I’m talking about a stock type engine,,,,not a race mill .

Tommy
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Old 01-21-2022, 05:28 PM   #23
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Just a mention, I spotted hypereutectic 3 ring pistons in Speedways catalog, in the flathead stuff section.

Those hypereutectics in the Speedway catalog are only available in a 3 3/4 stroke and 3 3/8 bore. They are left over stock and otherwise a discontinued item.
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Old 01-21-2022, 05:30 PM   #24
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Ross makes an excellent piston,,,,,,well worth the money,,,,,if you need it .
Any real high performance application would definitely benefit from them .

For a stock type rebuild,,,,,cast are more than enough ,,,,,maybe 120 horsepower?
Even 150 hp,,,,,,although I canÂ’t imagine a stock type rebuild making that much power.
Cast are good to about 400 HP .

Egge makes an excellent product,,,,,a very good quality cast piston.
I bought their 4 ring pistons and plan on only running 3 rings with them .
They were about half the cost of the Ross,,,,,I bought the factory type rings too .




Saved a lot of money,,,,,,but still have quality parts,,,,at least for my application .

IÂ’m sure the metric rings are great in a race engine,,,,,,,you would never know it on the street ,,,,,complete overkill .
Also,,,,,,for a stock type rebuild,,,,,,,boring with deck plates will never be appreciated.
Just more money,,,,and you will never realize any power increase.

Again,,,,IÂ’m talking about a stock type engine,,,,not a race mill .

Tommy

Tommy,
I don't disagree with a single thing you've said. Sometimes one does something more than what's needed,....just because you can.


My engine is no race engine, but I guess I have been short on details. Got a nice 8BA block that will be 3 5/16x 4,new rods, two new 97's on Offy manifold and Offy heads. PETE ground me an awesome Isky 1007B cam and original Johnson lifters. One of the 97's has ported vacuum, will use that with my Bubba modified Chev dist. I use ARP studs because I like them, don't need to, but I do.
I won't order pistons till we're in the machine shop and until then going to keep an open mind. As mentioned earlier, I saw some 3 ring hypereutectic pistons in Speedway catolog, we'll see.
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Old 01-21-2022, 07:54 PM   #25
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Those hypereutectics in the Speedway catalog are only available in a 3 3/4 stroke and 3 3/8 bore. They are left over stock and otherwise a discontinued item.

Good to know! Well that narrows thing down, Thanks.
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Old 01-21-2022, 08:21 PM   #26
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Shoebox ,
Yeah,,,,,Pete ground a cam for me,,,,,a nice Potvin 3/8 profile ,,,for my 8BA (8CM Merc ),,.
The machine work is second to none .
If I hadn’t known it was an old cam,,,,,I would have sworn it was new,,,,,beautiful grinding work .
Top notch guy .

Tommy
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Old 01-21-2022, 08:30 PM   #27
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.....One of the 97's has ported vacuum, will use that with my Bubba modified Chev dist....

I believe that "ported vacuum" is a method used for emissions control and is not the best for general use or performance. Are you sure you want to do this? Straight manifold vacuum is better.
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Old 01-21-2022, 08:31 PM   #28
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Shoebox ,
Yeah,,,,,Pete ground a cam for me,,,,,a nice Potvin 3/8 profile ,,,for my 8BA (8CM Merc ),,.
The machine work is second to none .
If I hadn’t known it was an old cam,,,,,I would have sworn it was new,,,,,beautiful grinding work .
Top notch guy .

Tommy
We’re the bearing journals polished after “Parkerizing”?
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Old 01-21-2022, 10:14 PM   #29
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I agree with Desoto. You will never know the thickness of the rings on the chosen pistons if you are building a moderate street application engine. And for that matter the brand of pistons will be irrelevant too.
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:15 PM   #30
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I believe that "ported vacuum" is a method used for emissions control and is not the best for general use or performance. Are you sure you want to do this? Straight manifold vacuum is better.

Well, have BOTH options, will review each.
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:35 PM   #31
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Well, have BOTH options, will review each.
In one of my many former lives, I was a "Corvette Guy". In that world, it was a given that changing a '70's engine (with ported vacuum) back to straight manifold vacuum (which the same engines used in the '60's) yielded a noticeable performance increase. This usually involved a change of vacuum advance "cans" as well.

The General was chasing emissions compliance in those days, not performance.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:33 AM   #32
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In one of my many former lives, I was a "Corvette Guy". In that world, it was a given that changing a '70's engine (with ported vacuum) back to straight manifold vacuum (which the same engines used in the '60's) yielded a noticeable performance increase. This usually involved a change of vacuum advance "cans" as well.

The General was chasing emissions compliance in those days, not performance.

The distributor to be used is one from Bubba back when he purchased a quantity of new gm distributors to modify for our flatheads. I understood he set up the weights, springs, vac cans, for our flatheads. I'm aware of his current situation but will try to reach out to him, and Charlie NY who does the same conversion and see what their take on this topic is. Like you, I have a thing for flat top Mallorys and have one of those, also set up by Bubba, but my hope was to take advantage of the vacuum as well as mech advance.
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:02 AM   #33
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Manifold vacuum for sure. I worked as an engineer in the auto industry in the 60's and 70's and ported spark was emissions related.
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:30 PM   #34
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The cost of Ross pistons and good metric rings will be over $600, so definitely not a "cheap" solution - but there are just not many "cheap solutions" for most of the components we use in high-performance flatheads these days.

I'd love to have a great hypereutectic piston supplier who would put metric ring packs on their pistons and give me custom bore sizes and compression heights - for a reasonable up-charge. I'd run these sorts of pistons on street engines - for many builds.
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:23 PM   #35
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As B&S mentioned, going "cheap" on any engine component is false economy. I have Ross forged pistons and metric rings in 4 engines. Have never noticed any noise before warming up. The less friction of the metric rings to me added horsepower over the old school cast iron rings. You can feel the difference just by turning the engine over by hand while assembling it. I also like the added strength of forged pistons. A small butterfly screw came out of a throttle plate on my avatar roadster and it sounded really bad. Only a few thread marks in the head and very little on the piston. I think a cast piston would have failed.
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:37 PM   #36
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As B&S mentioned, going "cheap" on any engine component is false economy. I have Ross forged pistons and metric rings in 4 engines. Have never noticed any noise before warming up. The less friction of the metric rings to me added horsepower over the old school cast iron rings. You can feel the difference just by turning the engine over by hand while assembling it. I also like the added strength of forged pistons. A small butterfly screw came out of a throttle plate on my avatar roadster and it sounded really bad. Only a few thread marks in the head and very little on the piston. I think a cast piston would have failed.
I'm with you and B&S on this one. Nothing about doing a flathead is cheap. Why cheap out on one of the most important parts of a rebuild?

I noticed the same thing about the reduced friction. The ease of turning the motor over by hand was surprising compared to a stock cast iron ringed motor.
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Old 01-22-2022, 02:10 PM   #37
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Manifold vacuum for sure. I worked as an engineer in the auto industry in the 60's and 70's and ported spark was emissions related.

Well, that's good enough for me, manifold vacuum it is.
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Old 01-22-2022, 05:07 PM   #38
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Buying and installing components appropriate for the intended use is NOT an act of "cheaping out". Buying gold parts for a copper system is , in a word, stupid.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

Yeah, I get it...and I'm stupid!!! I always go way, way overboard on my builds. But why not?
You Americans are so lucky...you don't have to pay astronomical freight and taxes on top of the top dollar prices for quality parts.
Those narrow metric ring packs certainly reduce the friction, very apparent in turning engine over when compared to regular cast iron 'thick' rings.
Do it once, do it right, and just drive it!
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

Metric rings compared to inch-fractional rings in this back to back dyno test of a small block chevy found 8 hp at 6,000 rpm. From the graph near the end of the video it looks to me like almost 0 hp difference below 4,000 rpm. I find it interesting they found the same torque difference required to turn the crank during engine assembly being reported in this thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-29IWc-zrv8
In the rpm range where I street drive a smaller bore flathead, I'll never feel the difference. Cast pistons and standard cast iron rings for me.
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Old 01-23-2022, 11:57 AM   #41
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

It is not just the reduction is friction, I like a chrome-moly top-ring. I use chrome moly rings on every other brand/type of performance engine, so it makes sense to me to use them on flatheads. This is more important if I'm in a boosted situation (which most of my flatheads are not). On the Flathead Cadillac I built for Bonneville I use a special top ring that is designed for high heat (generated by high boost). I'm a bit off track here . . .

I always check the amount of torque to rotate the engine over with the plugs out of it (on the stand). Then I record that amount of torque to reference later on (in case I have an issue later and suddenly the engine is harder to turn over). There is a notable difference in what it takes to turn an engine with metric rings over - vs the thicker cast iron ones. What I have NOT done (but this has me thinking) is to test two different engines at a later date (metrics vs traditional cast rings) - would be interesting to see how they are once they're broken in.

To each his own . . . plenty of ways to skin the Flathead Cat!
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Old 01-23-2022, 11:59 AM   #42
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

One reason that I end up with custom bore sizes is due to ring selection. If you talk to the piston manufacturers, they'll tell you that it is getting increasingly hard to find quality high performance ring packs in smaller bore sizes - unless they go to metric. So now days I determine the rings I'm going to run FIRST, then use that decision to determine my bore size. Kind of bass-akwards from the old days . . .

Again, this is important in higher performance and race applications - really not an issue for a basic street engine . . . but it is always good to know what your options are. We all determine what we want to spend our money on - and for what reasons. I tend to drift towards overkill - just the way I am wired.
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Old 01-23-2022, 12:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Thoughts/Opinions on Piston Rings

Bored&Stroked, I think you provide a great example of the difference in intended engine use. Your motors all seem to be on the high performance street to full race end of the scale. You are probably much more interested in power above 3,000 rpm than torque off idle. Therefore you choose forged pistons, thin rings, specific rod bearings, cam profile, port work, magneto, etc. to maximize the higher rpm performance.

I am interested in maximizing comfortable touring with a totally stock appearance. My logic is to maximize torque from idle to around 2,800 rpm. I don't care if the engine falls flat on its face at 3,000 rpm. Stock Ford camshaft and 8BA valves, merc crank, small overbore on 3 3/16 block, stock heads surfaced to achieve 0.050 above the piston, stock intake, 3.78 or 4.11 rear ratio with overdrive for me. Given my use there is no point in any other than cast pistons with cast iron rings.

I do really appreciate all you share with us though. For example, I recently went and found a new set of std cadmium-silver Federal-Mogul bearings (~$40 sold government surplus on ebay!) for use with a stroker crank use because information you posted.
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