1932 clutch issue

[Harold Degand]

Hi. I changed my 11’’ clutch to a 10.
On the new one, I don’t have the adjusters.
So now, I have to much play in the pedal. The release bearing has a longer travel to push the pressure plate.
Except the fact I have to make a longer pushrod, is there a risk for the bearing guide or something else ?
French flathead, 1939 trans, original chassis and pedal assy.
Thanks

[A bones]

I apologize for not having the answer.
I would rather find the guy who rebuilds them, and keep the older one.
Your location may make it difficult, but somebody there ( thinking region ) must be capable.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by A bones

I apologize for not having the answer.
I would rather find the guy who rebuilds them, and keep the older one.
Your location may make it difficult, but somebody there ( thinking region ) must be capable.

Thanks for your reply.

the « old » one is almost new, when the engine was rebuilt.
Engine come from a french truck. I red some advice on the H.A.M.B.
it is highly recommended to change the 11 to a 10’’.
That’s what I did.Drilled, threaded and balanced the flywheel with the new pressure plate.
I can’t figure put the 11 back on.

[tubman]

Will a 10" even fit in a '32 transmission. I'm no expert, but isn't a 9" as large as you can go without grinding the inside of the transmission case? Someone with more knowledge than I have should jump in here.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by tubman

Will a 10" even fit in a '32 transmission. I'm no expert, but isn't a 9" as large as you can go without grinding the inside of the transmission case? Someone with more knowledge than I have should jump in here.

No issue about clearance with the case with the 10. It’s a 1939 case.
Not sure with a 11 ?
My problem is the throwout bearing is to far away from the plate.

[deuce lover]

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Harold, You need remove inspection cover and see if the bearing collar has enough slide area. Take a picture if you can and post it.Here is a pic of the parts

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Harold, You need remove inspection cover and see if the bearing collar has enough slide area. Here is a pic of the parts

Can’t open the attached pic

[deuce lover]

Here.The last pic shows how the assy should look when not depressed.How much play do you have?

[rotorwrench]

The new reproduction 10" Long type clutches don't have the adjustable fingers. A lot of folks here in the US still send there original clutch covers out for rebuild and adjustment. Fort Wayne Clutch in Indiana is a common place to send them here. This may not be so common in Europe. Even finding a good core in the EU could be challenging. Those old French SUMB military trucks had big truck stuff on them and those 11" jobs are pretty heavy. It really slows the throttle response down.

[deuce lover]

I think he got the pars from USA.Looks like what Speedway sells.

[tubman]

Re : Fort Wayne Clutch. Here's a post I made on the H.A.M.B. a couple of months ago :

I just got off the phone with Fort Wayne Clutch and I thought the folks here might be interested on how the conversation went. As a bit of background, I found a core left over from when I changed the clutch in my '51 Ford back in 2016. It was complete, in the original box, and had all of the original paperwork, including a sheet that said it was returnable for a $20 core charge as well as a UPS return label. Since I purchased it five years ago, I called them to make sure the return would go through and they told me that they didn't want it, as they were selling all new components now. This aroused my curiosity, and I asked him where they were able to get new components these days.

He answered, and this is a direct quote : "Oh, some guy named 'Wong Fu'."

[Harold Degand]

I’ll take some pics ASAP.
Parts come from Mac’s.

We don’t have NAPA stores here in EU. To save money, every order I make takes 3 to 4 months for delivery. I assume that choice but not easy to work with.

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by tubman

Re : Fort Wayne Clutch. Here's a post I made on the H.A.M.B. a couple of months ago :

I just got off the phone with Fort Wayne Clutch and I thought the folks here might be interested on how the conversation went. As a bit of background, I found a core left over from when I changed the clutch in my '51 Ford back in 2016. It was complete, in the original box, and had all of the original paperwork, including a sheet that said it was returnable for a $20 core charge as well as a UPS return label. Since I purchased it five years ago, I called them to make sure the return would go through and they told me that they didn't want it, as they were selling all new components now. This aroused my curiosity, and I asked him where they were able to get new components these days.

He answered, and this is a direct quote : "Oh, some guy named 'Wong Fu'."

Good one tubman !! I have lots of stories of Speedwu and Macwu but this is not the thread for them.

[rotorwrench]

I have to send my cores to them to get them overhauled. They don't have the old Borg & Beck stuff in stock and no one reproduces them. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell new stuff instead of doing exchanges. The new ones likely cost less than the overhauls. You get what you pay for though. I have never done an exchange with them yet.

[Harold Degand]

It’s a shame for a seller like Mac’s to sell parts they fit but couldn’t work.
I didn’t notice when I bought it there’s no adjuster.
And when I installed it, I thought it will not be a problem.
Very disappointed.

[Harold Degand]

Found this. Could it help ?
But it’s for a tractor
https://www.dennis-carpenter.com/tra...it---10-spline

[Harold Degand]

Here are the pics.
#1 space between bearing and plate
#2 when bearing is close the plate. The rod is 1’’ to short
#3 space between bearing and case, bearing against plate

[deuce lover]

Looks like you have the B-7521A 3 9/16 " long.The 34 is 4 11/16". V8 Ford sales has one that is 4 inches long.Would that work?

• 
  CLUTCH PEDAL RELEASE ROD CLEVIS7/16 X 20 X 4
  • Year1932-1952
  • Item#48-7521
  • Price$8.45EACH
  • QtyAdd
  • Wish List Add ToRemove FromView List

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Looks like you have the B-7521A 3 9/16 " long.The 34 is 4 11/16". V8 Ford sales has one that is 4 inches long.Would that work?

• 
  CLUTCH PEDAL RELEASE ROD CLEVIS7/16 X 20 X 4
  • Year1932-1952
  • Item#48-7521
  • Price$8.45EACH
  • QtyAdd
  • Wish List Add ToRemove FromView List

I don’t think so. Mine is about 3 1/2 long from one end to the other.

[deuce lover]

Then you need the 34. Southside Obsolete or ThirdGen might have one. ThirdGen phone number is 844-327-5988.They open at 10:00.

[Harold Degand]

Thanks Deuce Lover

[deuce lover]

You're welcome.I looked to see if I had one in my leftover parts-no luck.

[Harold Degand]

Just wondering, is the bearing guide long enough ?
No risk of damaging anything ?

[deuce lover]

Have someone help you and push on the lever while you look inside and see how much it moves. I am trying to understand why you have this issue and maybe its the flywheel - not thick enough? Just a guess. Hopefully another member will chime in. Is your French Flathead the 4.2L and is the flywheel original to the engine? I am not familiar with those,only the 3.9L which is like the 59AB.

[Harold Degand]

My engine is a 3.9 L. The flywheel is the same as Ford except they are drilled for 11’’ clutch.
I think the issue is the missing adjusters. So the plate isn’t thick enough.
With the rod in a normal size, I mean not full unscrewed or screwed, my pedal is close to the floor when the bearing contact the plate.

[F1 MIKE]

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If the clutch disk is to thick it will move the fingers in more. Some over the counter clutch assy would come that way back in the day. just a thought.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've never used the clutch arm adjusters to adjust pedal play (on any car) - they come setup from the manufacturer to ensure even engagement with the throw-out bearing. They are not meant to be used to adjust pedal play (to the best of my knowledge).

When you put a new clutch disc in, it is probably thicker than your original one - which causes the fingers to be further down. I'd expect this . . . so the question is whether or not your throw-out bearing is TOO far out on the sleeve.

I agree with Deuce Lover - have somebody depress the pedal until you feel the clutch fingers and see where the throw-out bearing sleeve is located. You should be able to determine whether or not it is still correctly engaged with the sleeve - if so, then maybe change the rod as noted above.

Is the 39 trans using a 32 arm on the cross-shaft or a 39 arm on the cross shaft (they're completely different in length). As long as the throw-out bearing is correctly engaged with the sleeve, I'd have no problem "customizing" the length of the rod to accomplish the desired free-play.

[Bored&Stroked]

By "customizing", I've cut them before (close to the eyelet), added some additional rod material in the middle and TIG welded them back together to achieve whatever length I needed for whatever car I was working on.

[Harold Degand]

The new disk have the same thickness than the 11’’ from the truck.
I have a late 32 arm release.
I’ll check ASAP when somebody depress clutch.
I can’t be the only one with this problem.
Thank you all for your replies anyway.

[Bored&Stroked]

Given your setup, I wonder if the clutch arms are in the right location when you bolt it down to the flywheel? I'd probably take the original pressure plate and disc, install them and use some sort of flat disc on top of the fingers and measure the depth to the flywheel. I'd do the same with the new setup - just so you have a frame of reference as to how far down the levers are as compared to your 11" setup.

For your pedal to be that different with the new clutch sure sounds like a clutch plate issue at this point in the discussion. Also, I'd want to talk to a clutch manufacturer - where you can get somebody who understands exactly what you're talking about. I tend to deal with flywheel/clutch manufacturers and don't just buy these types of components from the "general" parts houses.

My recent flathead flywheel/clutch builds have been done by RAM (high performance and racing stuff), have not used a stock clutch in years on my own builds. I have used Ft. Wayne for multiple street performance and stock type builds with no problems.

[Lawson Cox]

Originally Posted by Harold Degand

I don’t think so. Mine is about 3 1/2 long from one end to the other.

What's the matter with cutting it off with a hacksaw? Duh.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Lawson Cox

What's the matter with cutting it off with a hacksaw? Duh.

It is too short . . . by at least an inch or so.

[Mart]

I have that setup on my roadster. You just need to make a longer pushrod. You could make the clevis longer by welding a nut onto the end. That may be simpler than extending the rod. Your choice.

[Harold Degand]

Here are the pics !
#1 the rod and the clevis assembled.
#2 the clutch pedal on the normal position
#3 the pedal when the bearing contact the pressure plate
#4 the gap when bearing contact the plate
#5 gap when depressing the clutch. Can’t go further, the pedal contact the steering box

[Terry,OH]

Does your throw out bearing hub look like the photo in post #8 ?? It appears to be much different in the photos you have posted. In posting #8 the center photo shows the throw out hub and in the third photo you can see the assembly.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Does your throw out bearing hub look like the photo in post #8 ?? It appears to be much different in the photos you have posted. In posting #8 the center photo shows the throw out hub and in the third photo you can see the assembly.

In post «#8, deuce lover posted 3 pics. In the 2nd one, the bearing isn’t fitted, but it is on 3rd pic. Is it what you ment ?
It is the same on mine.

[Bored&Stroked]

The hub/bearing looks standard to me . . . it is just WAY forward before it engages with the clutch forks/fingers. I think there is something wrong with the clutch and/or disc combination - that results in the clutch fingers being way closer to the flywheel than the original clutch you had in it.

Just to ask an obvious question - is the clutch disc correctly installed and the springs are NOT hitting the flywheel bolts?

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

The hub/bearing looks standard to me . . . it is just WAY forward before it engages with the clutch forks/fingers. I think there is something wrong with the clutch and/or disc combination - that results in the clutch fingers being way closer to the flywheel than the original clutch you had in it.

Just to ask an obvious question - is the clutch disc correctly installed and the springs are NOT hitting the flywheel bolts?

I’m pretty sure the problem come by the missing fingers adjusters.

The disk is in the right position

[Mart]

The adjusters aren't "missing" the plate is designed to be used like that.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by Mart

The adjusters aren't "missing" the plate is designed to be used like that.

You’re right. I ment, there's no adjuster on the new plate

[Bored&Stroked]

What Mart and I are both saying is that it really has nothing to do with having adjusters on the fingers. There are many clutch plates that don't have adjusters - that fit the same application as another manufacturer that has adjusters (same engine, same year, same flywheel). The adjusters are strictly a method for the manufacturer to align the contact surfaces of the fingers with the throw-out bearing. Some Mfgrs use them, some don't . . .

Fact is, there is something wrong with the actual clutch plate, it's design and/or how it interacts with the clutch disc. Having adjusters would NOT change a thing in that the finger contact areas need to be somewhere around 1/2" higher than they are - the reason they aren't high enough, I can't guess from pictures. Having adjusters would not solve the problem.

[Harold Degand]

Ok now I get it. My apologies.
I’ll try with an endoscope to look inside the clutch assy to find out.

[Harold Degand]

I was wrong, parts came from Speedway and not Mac’s but it doesn’t matter.
I think I bought the right parts

[oj]

That pressure plate looks way too tall, I have a '41 transmission in mine and it doesn't look as tall as that.
For the best advice and parts go to:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/
He flat knows these transmissions, check out his website.

[Harold Degand]

I tried with increasing the length of the pushrod.
If now the bearing come closer the plate, when the bearing return toward the trans, the clutch pedal come back to much

[Mart]

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But is that extra movement free play? Or is the bearing in contact with the fingers at that position? If the floorboards were in position it would not come up that far.
Try and adjust the length so the clutch is just released at about 2/3 of pedal travel. Then see where the pedal sits when just clear of the bearing. Mock up or imagine a floorboard in place which gives both an upper and lower travel limit for the pedal.
Mart.

[deuce lover]

Harold, To me you have a 4.2 litre French Marmon engine. Those are like the 8BA but with the 59A style bellhousing.So your flywheel may be different than a 59A.I don't know.You might have to install a sleeve that slips over the collar that the release bearing holder slides on to stop the pedal from retracting to far.I had to do that on a T5 that I installed in my 36 Ford years ago.Here are pics plus one of yours that I edited as its to dark.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by Mart

But is that extra movement free play? Or is the bearing in contact with the fingers at that position? If the floorboards were in position it would not come up that far.
Try and adjust the length so the clutch is just released at about 2/3 of pedal travel. Then see where the pedal sits when just clear of the bearing. Mock up or imagine a floorboard in place which gives both an upper and lower travel limit for the pedal.
Mart.

Yes, it works great.
And you’re right, the floor will limit the movement of the pedal in one way and the other.

[Harold Degand]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Harold, To me you have a 4.2 litre French Marmon engine. Those are like the 8BA but with the 59A style bellhousing.So your flywheel may be different than a 59A.I don't know.You might have to install a sleeve that slips over the collar that the release bearing holder slides on to stop the pedal from retracting to far.I had to do that on a T5 that I installed in my 36 Ford years ago.Here are pics plus one of yours that I edited as its to dark.

No, I have a 3.9 from a Simca Cargo.
The flywheel is the same as a 59a.

[Harold Degand]

Some update of my post

I put the floor back on.

I noticed the initial position of the pedals is lower than I thought.
So the pushrod is now 1/2’’ to short instead of 1’’.

I will remove the stop under the floor and put the extension I make on the rod.
Problem will be solved.

Thank you all guys for your help !

[Mart]

Hello Harold.
I recently fitted a clutch of the type you show, in place of an older unit with the fingers.
The clutch pedal still works, but the release point is lower than it was before. I will have to make an adjustment to bring the pedal up a bit.
I will show it in an upcoming video.
Mart.

[cas3]

I have found that when doing the mock up for pedal position, body on or off, you can clamp a flat piece of steel or wood onto the transmission flat spot where the serial number is to simulate the floorboard location. Not exact, but close enough for it to function, and do a finale adjustment once the floorboards are in place

[FlatJan]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Harold, To me you have a 4.2 litre French Marmon engine. Those are like the 8BA but with the 59A style bellhousing.So your flywheel may be different than a 59A.I don't know.You might have to install a sleeve that slips over the collar that the release bearing holder slides on to stop the pedal from retracting to far.I had to do that on a T5 that I installed in my 36 Ford years ago.Here are pics plus one of yours that I edited as its to dark.

actually i´d say it´s a 3.9 Cargo.
the Marmons had other embossed writings on the bellhousing and a pad to mount the rebuild plaque. plus i have never seen the writing on the back of the engine center part above the bell housing. this is where the marmon had it´s oil filter and more like Cargo or even early Simca.

but i may be wrong.

Harold: Why didn´t you stick with the 11"clutch? i run a 4.2 marmon with 11"clutch and 39 trans (78case) with no issue .
other than popping out of second.
but that has nothing to do with the clutch and i´m working on that

following are 4.2 Marmon pics.
green is cast 1980 by FN
black is cast 1975 by FAPS
grey is cast 1970 by FAPS (brass rebuild plaque)

[Harold Degand]

It is a 3.9 Cargo.
I used a 10 in clutch instead the 11 because the weight.