Head questions

[Henry's Lady's Man]

I found water in my oil, and had been getting hydrocarbons in my radiator. I just removed the head on my '30 Town Sedan.

1) Can anyone tell me for sure if this is a stock head?

2) If I decide to remove some material for higher compression, how much is TOO MUCH before valve clearance becomes an issue?

Chuck

[Henry's Lady's Man]

20160206_141802.jpgOOPS! here is a photo.

[Will Ziegler in LI NY]

Yes it is stock. I think you would have to remove too just to get a significant increase in compression.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

I found water in my oil, and had been getting hydrocarbons in my radiator. I just removed the head on my '30 Town Sedan.

1) Can anyone tell me for sure if this is a stock head?

2) If I decide to remove some material for higher compression, how much is TOO MUCH before valve clearance becomes an issue?

Chuck

Valve clearance won't be a problem, Stock pistons protrude about .030 out of the block. Machine the head until you have about .030 counterbore left and the thickness of the head gasket will be your clearance.
It peps it up pretty good. I have this setup on my 30 coupe.
On my 28 with aftermarket pistons that don't protrude I was able to machine it until the counterbore was completely gone, about .125.
Bill

[tbirdtbird]

be careful of the fit of a head gasket in the valve area if you start cutting. Look closely at the valve area of the head. The sides of the chamber are concave for less valve shrouding. As you mill the head, you are widening out the head opening in the valve area. Lay your gasket on there and see how much you can widen out before the fire ring begins to hang into the chamber. I have seen several expensive heads ruined because this mistake was made

[Charlie Stephens]

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If you want more compression buy a high compression head. Milling the stock head won't make that much difference. Mill it enough to make it flat and stop.

Charlie Stephens

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Milling doesn't add much compression, but it can change the quench/turbulence and you will notice that.

[Gary WA]

Might check for cracks?buy high comp head you'll be happy you did!

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Thank you all for the good input. So far, I'm just doing a quick fix and had to ask about cutting the head down, while it still can remain simple and cheap. When I have time (& $$$) to pull the engine and see what the mains and the crank look like, I'll decide what to do with the head at that time. It will depend on what I am doing down under. I believe I still have old babbit, and if turn out to be as worn as my stock valve guides, I'll be doing some more serious work, and probably get a 5.5 head at that time.

Meanwhile, I'm also doing new stock valves (and lapping), springs and guides, adjustment, and throwing her back together. I promised a young couple to be their chauffeur at their wedding in March. (So with a full time job, I'm pushing it!)

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Milling doesn't add much compression, but it can change the quench/turbulence and you will notice that.

Ok, I tried looking up "quench/turbulence", and it looks complicated. So HOW will I notice that effect? Is it positive or negative from a driving standpoint? Changes in advance/retard? Changes in mixture? Faster burn or slower? You piqued my interest.

[George Miller]

If you are going to pay some one to mill the head, why not put that money towards a good 5.5 or 6 head. I have milled a stock head to the max. It did help but not as good as a 5.5 head.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Look at your picture in #2 and notice that the small coolant hole under the water pump is right next to the edge of the combustion chamber. Milling this head could be a waste of money. I'd just buy the 5.5 head now, so you save money in the long run.

[Mikeinnj]

Have you checked the flatness of the deck of the engine or checked the engine for any cracks ? Look closely for cracks in the area between the valve seats and the cylinders.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Look at your picture in #2 and notice that the small coolant hole under the water pump is right next to the edge of the combustion chamber. Milling this head could be a waste of money. I'd just buy the 5.5 head now, so you save money in the long run.

Just read this. That water hole IS very close. I took my head in to the shop straight after work to head shop to just clean it up, blast it and check for level. I did NOT tell them to mill it down; just enough to level it.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

Have you checked the flatness of the deck of the engine or checked the engine for any cracks ? Look closely for cracks in the area between the valve seats and the cylinders.

Not sure if deck is flat. I didn't pull the studs yet. Isn't it unusual for the block to warp?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

Just read this. That water hole IS very close. I took my head in to the shop straight after work to head shop to just clean it up, blast it and check for level. I did NOT tell them to mill it down; just enough to level it.

If that was my head and I was going to use it, then I'd tap the hole with fine threads and screw a fine thread bolt into the hole with locktite on it. Let it set up for a day, then cut the bolt and file it down flat with the head, and drill a new hole about 1/8" closer to the front of the head. Actually this should have been done before leveling the head, but still can be done as I described.

How does the head gasket line up with that small hole? I'm wondering why it's so close to the edge?

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

If that was my head and I was going to use it, then I'd tap the hole with fine threads and screw a fine thread bolt into the hole with locktite on it. Let it set up for a day, then cut the bolt and file it down flat with the head, and drill a new hole about 1/8" closer to the front of the head. Actually this should have been done before leveling the head, but still can be done as I described.

How does the head gasket line up with that small hole? I'm wondering why it's so close to the edge?

Tom, Here is a closeup of that hole. I will get my head back by Thurs or Fri. Then I will examine if the head gasket lines up with it. It is a bit close. Thanks for pointing that out. I could still opt for purchasing a 5.5 head.

I just pulled my oil pan for the first time since I owned it (I've only put 700 miles on her).
The engine is still in the car and I wasn't planning on rebuilding the whole shebang yet. I will start another post regarding doing the rings while I'm at it. I'm afraid to look at the babbit. It may fall to pieces. Then I AM stuck with a full rebuild, and I'll miss this wedding for a friend. Oh well. It is what it is! Can I rebuild it in IN THE CAR?

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Dang, the pic again!20160206_141816.jpg

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

Dang, the pic again!Attachment 257456

Were your cylinders bored with a shotgun?

What is the bore? It might be time to sleeve them back to standard.

It isn't too bad to pull the engine, and for the work you want to do that's the way to go.

Rering or rebuild is much easier and better with the engine out of the car. You might get lucky and have good babbit.

[40 Deluxe]

Since you're under the gun timewise, just get the head fixed and back on. Threading and plugging that hole may well fix the whole problem anyway. Since it was running OK except for losing water it will surely last just fine through its wedding duties.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Since you're under the gun timewise, just get the head fixed and back on. Threading and plugging that hole may well fix the whole problem anyway. Since it was running OK except for losing water it will surely last just fine through its wedding duties.

Hey 40 Deluxe, I cam up with a Plan C. I just picked up an engine stand from craigslist this evening locally, and got a tip on a local Model A group with a machine shop. That was very fortuitous (serendipitous?)

I will do a full rebuild, and I think I have time. I will put on the stock head though (after I work on that water hole) and see how it goes. I will rebuild; I can replace the head later.

See, I DO listen to all you Barners. I just need to "talk it out".

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Were your cylinders bored with a shotgun?

What is the bore? It might be time to sleeve them back to standard.

It isn't too bad to pull the engine, and for the work you want to do that's the way to go.

Rering or rebuild is much easier and better with the engine out of the car. You might get lucky and have good babbit.

Tom, the bore is 3.97" . That is a bit worn, so then is this good for a sleeve? or oversized pistons or oversized rings?

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Were your cylinders bored with a shotgun?

What is the bore? It might be time to sleeve them back to standard.

It isn't too bad to pull the engine, and for the work you want to do that's the way to go.

Rering or rebuild is much easier and better with the engine out of the car. You might get lucky and have good babbit.

Tom, the bore measures 3.97 , so it sounds like time to sleeve. I found some local guys who machine Model A's. I will talk to them. As I just posted, I will fix the stock head and use it for a while. At least all of this will get rebuilt. I can swap heads later with all that behind me.
Thanx again for the advice. See? I DO listen to you guys. Then I proceed my own way

[Tom Wesenberg]

The shotgun comment was because the picture made the cylinders look rough, but it was most likely a very low resolution picture.

Stock bore is 3.875" and the picture shows the coolant hole close to the edge also, as though the cylinder has been bored quite a bit.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by forever4

The picture is a cylinder head.
I would scrap it rather than waste money planing it and a new gasket.

Sure nuff now I can see it's a head rather than looking down the cylinder. I also wouldn't be spending money on that head, but buy the 5.5 head instead. You could tap, plug and redrill the hole for no money, but if the head needs to be planed then just put the money towards the new 5.5 head.

[Terry, NJ]

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How much do you want/have to spend? 3.97 "will take one more resizing to 4.000", after that, you must sleeve. One of my engines is 4.000., .125 oversize. Just boring the engine increases the compression (Slightly). Also, it will increase the HP by a percentage. Bore it out 5% and you'll increase the HP by 5%. A bored out model A block (.125) is about 214-215 cubic inches, around 7%. Add a bored out manifold and a B carburetor to improve the breathing. I can cut .040 off a head for $40, Or I can go buy a Snyder's H C head for $300. Naturally the repro HC head will give you more oomph. But so will a $400 cam, or a supercharger ($xxx?) or a hundred other jobs that I don't really have the cash for.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

How much do you want/have to spend? 3.97 "will take one more resizing to 4.000", after that, you must sleeve. One of my engines is 4.000., .125 oversize. Just boring the engine increases the compression (Slightly). Also, it will increase the HP by a percentage. Bore it out 5% and you'll increase the HP by 5%. A bored out model A block (.125) is about 214-215 cubic inches, around 7%. Add a bored out manifold and a B carburetor to improve the breathing. I can cut .040 off a head for $40, Or I can go buy a Snyder's H C head for $300. Naturally the repro HC head will give you more oomph. But so will a $400 cam, or a supercharger ($xxx?) or a hundred other jobs that I don't really have the cash for.

Hey Terry,
So will a bore to 4.00 require different pistons or same stock pistons w different rings or stock size rings?

[CarlG]

You need to get pistons that match the bore. If you bore it .125, you need +.125 pistons and rings.

[Terry, NJ]

H.L.M., Brattons 2015 catalog has .125 oversize pistons (Pg.40, #8310) for $ 89.95. Cylinder sleeves, std bore (3.875) are $30.75 each, This will require new 3.875 pistons. Rings are 39.65 a set. Also, you will need wrist pin bushings (4) at $1.85 each. I hope this helps you to figure your costs. I'm not recommending this, but you may be able to merely replace the rings into your old pistons. I would have to mike the bores to see if it's feasible.
Terry

[modelAtony]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

I found water in my oil, and had been getting hydrocarbons in my radiator. I just removed the head on my '30 Town Sedan.

1) Can anyone tell me for sure if this is a stock head?

2) If I decide to remove some material for higher compression, how much is TOO MUCH before valve clearance becomes an issue?

Chuck

I was reading the rest of your post, engine work etc. You have a VERY GOOD BUILDER there in ALB. off Coors road. PETE'S AUTO MACHINE , John Cosper TEL- 505-836-3110 he is the son and runs the shop for a few years now. This father and son team were one of the first to start doing inserted engines years ago. Great people and great work. Give him a call about any questions you have. Tell him a very satisfied customer from Lafayette, Louisiana , Tony White said to call. My inserted engine was done by him in 2005. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by modelAtony

I was reading the rest of your post, engine work etc. You have a VERY GOOD BUILDER there in ALB. off Coors road. PETE'S AUTO MACHINE , John Cosper TEL- 505-836-3110 he is the son and runs the shop for a few years now. This father and son team were one of the first to start doing inserted engines years ago. Great people and great work. Give him a call about any questions you have. Tell him a very satisfied customer from Lafayette, Louisiana , Tony White said to call. My inserted engine was done by him in 2005. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

Sounds like I'm about to have some fun. I've heard of PETE'S, and I have met John Cosper at the Poco Quatros Model A Club. I didn't know that was his shop. Wow, I just struck gold! Thanx to you and all who have posted. Now I can get on the fast track. Chuck

[Gavin]

I read on this forum sometime ago that a Snyders 5.5 head could be raised to 6.1 by planing a certain amount off it. I cannot find the original post. Can anyone advise what this figure is?
Cheers,
Gavin

[Bob-A]

Gavin,


Your question has been bugging me for a while. I looked up some old
printer-outs from the ...'Barn. I'll give you most of what is on a 12/28/2004
message:



posted by Dick Wyckoff,


" I am running a Snyders 5.5? milled 20 thous- My builder Bill Garland of Sparta GA said taking 20 off the head make it about 5.9 He started doing that years ago and has no complaints- I can tell you it is peppier than the

5.5" Lou Earle


Hope this helps and I might do this to a 5.5 head I have too.


Bob-

[Gavin]

Thanks for your research Bob. In a current thread titled "High Compression heads" two people have mentioned planing a 5.5 head, one by 50 thou and another by 100 thou. It would seem to me the amount one can plane will be dependant on whether or not the Pistons protrude above the block. I have a friend with a 5.5 head that needs 30 thou removed to straighten it and his piston protrude so Given your info I will proceed with caution.
Cheers,
Gavin

[Terry, NJ]

I really don't like that head H.L.M is working with! I'd get another one, preferably a "C" head (uncracked) or a "B" head (Police head) You will be shedding a questionable , possibly junk, head for one with a built in higher compression Ratio. However, that being said, I have a head that i cut .040 and got a noticable difference from it, not huge, but it was better.
I would not be in a hurry to sleeve a block that doesn't really need it. Sleeved cylinders go back to the original bore size (3.875) and you lose whatever effect you were getting from the larger bore. Well it's all in the past now. I don't think that H.L.M. is waiting for our answer (From 2015?) All we can do is hope that it will benefit someone else.
Terry