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Old 08-19-2010, 03:21 PM   #1
Roger V
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Default Model A Marine Engine

In all my years I've never seen a marine conversion of a Model A engine. Shown is a unit manufactured by Johnston Marine Works, Sandusky, Ohio. Mainly, it has unique manifolds, gear box, and bellhousing.
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File Type: jpg Marine A.JPG (110.0 KB, 1025 views)
File Type: jpg Marine A manifold.JPG (90.8 KB, 959 views)
File Type: jpg Marine A gearbox.JPG (100.6 KB, 901 views)
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Now that is Cool! Thanks for posting. It looks like they made a special cam gear cover with a mounting point on it. Also like the fact that they kept the zenith. I wonder how they adjusted the GAV?
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

I hope someone can save and store that engine. At Vancouver during one of the Tech sessions "Down on the Farm" a general discussion started covering the non-standard uses of the model A car and engine. Attendees shared their knowledge of Model A's cut down to be used as Doodle Bugs, others talked about marine applications, airplanes, farm combines and gleeners. One gentleman talked about military applications during Viet Nam, where he said they rebuilt model A engine powered generators and water pumps. There seemed to be a great deal of interest by those in attendence for these other than Model A car applications. Everyone there had a car or more but somehow connected with these special modifications.

Personally I think that if, lets say a farmer heard of a group that catered to A engined combines and he had one, he might join, the same with those that have a marine conversion and etc. As it was apparent at the meeting, cars owners were interested in other than car applications, owners of these "other things" may want to join the ranks of car ownership.

MAFCA has recognized a couple of special interest groups, the 400A/A400 group and FAST, the latter has over 1000 members. Starting a catch all special enterest group that would capture the marine, airplane, farming, military and etc. applications could prove to be of interest to many car owners, I see it as a membership feeder to MAFCA and a source of interest to the visitors on the barn
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Where I came from marine conversions were very common, the GAV was left a lone ( two turns open ) and the carb was equipped with a 3 way valve . You start them up with gasoline and after about 10 minutes warming up you switched over to kerosine . you hat to reverse the procedure to switch the engine of .It worked flawlesly in those day's
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Old 02-04-2019, 08:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

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Originally Posted by Gerard View Post
Where I came from marine conversions were very common, the GAV was left a lone ( two turns open ) and the carb was equipped with a 3 way valve . You start them up with gasoline and after about 10 minutes warming up you switched over to kerosine . you hat to reverse the procedure to switch the engine of .It worked flawlesly in those day's
The friend I bought my 1930 coupe from did the same thing during WWII when getting gas was difficult. He said it worked fine.

==========
Model A engines were common in the Pietenpol. (picture 1) I like the pressurized cold air/carb heat setup on this one. (picture 2)

BTW the early Spitfires and Hurricanes with RR merlin engines could not handle negative G's either. While the fuel injected BF-109's could. You can see and hear the engine of a Hurricane doing a roll cut out in an opening scene of the movie "Battle Of Britain".
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Ironically, James Rogers (DreamWerks) was over here at the shop today and we discussed that same thing about him selling his boat (Mercury outboard) because he doesn't use it, ....and me wanting a wooden launch with a Model A engine in it for power. My problem is that I have too much A/B speed equipment laying around that would likely find its way onto that marine engine! (Slalom skiing anyone?? )

Rogers said he was fixin' to build himself a Generator set for household emergency power during those brutal North Carolina winter storms when he is without power for a few days. I got to lookin' at what he was proposing, and with one of THESE units coupled to the back of a Model A engine & transmission, if he were to set the governor at about 1,000 rpms, and run the transmission in 2nd gear, --that oughtta be about right for about 540 RPMs out of the transmission output shaft. Surely with the torque output that thing would have at 900 - 1,000 rpm, it could easily make the necessary 14 horsepower it requires. I wonder what the fuel consumption would be at that speed? Any guesses??




BTW, if I had my Model A/B powered boat built by the time of the 2011 Marc Meet and showed up with it in San Diego, ...I could really put a whole new meaning to next year's Meet motto!!

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Old 08-19-2010, 06:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Actually this is more like what I might use, http://www.harborfreight.com/engines...ead-45416.html . I figure at 3 to 1 the RPM's would be right run directly off the flywheel.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:04 PM   #8
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Lightbulb Re: Model A Marine Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rogers View Post
Actually this is more like what I might use, http://www.harborfreight.com/engines...ead-45416.html . I figure at 3 to 1 the RPM's would be right run directly off the flywheel.
I would gear it 4 to 1 and run the Model A engine at 900 RPM. That should have all the horse power needed. Mount the unit in an insulated enclosure and run the coolant lines into the house to a radiator and electric fan for heat. Also run the exhaust through a heat exchanger for more house heat.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rogers View Post
Actually this is more like what I might use, http://www.harborfreight.com/engines...ead-45416.html . I figure at 3 to 1 the RPM's would be right run directly off the flywheel.
Actually, you might do better to do a direct connect to one of the ST Generator Heads. These turn at 1800 RPM which is a pretty good fit with the Model A engine.

Shortly, (Friday actually) I'll be heading north from Florida and I'm going to pick up my 10KW ST generator head from Central Georgia Generator. This his Ebay web location and the 10KW head. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-KW-ST-Gen...item35c4e3deb3

Mine I'm actually going to power using a VW diesel engine (another good match) direct connected. The connection requires a Lovejoy type coupling (which is nearly $100 all by itself) but does away with breaking belts - AND you get the advantage and life of 1800 4 pole generator.

The VW engine coupled to an ST is discussed at http://www.utterpower.com/vw-diesel-generator/
and a pix from one the site links below...



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Old 08-19-2010, 08:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

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That's kind of funny. Other customers bought manually powered potato choppers and solar powered lights to go with it.

They must not have much confidence in that generator!

For 4.99 I would buy the lights. I had one of the choppers, that was a lesson learned. Anyway somebody has to slice the potatoes when the neighbors come over in the snow to eat COOKED food.
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Hilarious!!!
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Idling at 900 RPMs should yield what kind of fuel consumption? What are you guessing? ~1 gallon an hour? gallon an hour, ...maybe even gallon of fuel consumption an hour?
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Idling at 900 RPMs should yield what kind of fuel consumption? What are you guessing? ~1 gallon an hour? gallon an hour, ...maybe even gallon of fuel consumption an hour?
Driving my 28 Phaeton at 42 to 45 MPH I use 2 gallons of gas per hour, so I'd guess at 900 RPM with not much load you'd use about 1/2 gallon.

This past Sunday I could have bought a 7,500 watt diesel portable generator with rope recoil start for $1,000. My 650 watt Honda has run the house (refrigerator, a couple lights, sump pump, and TV) a few times when the power went out. It runs at 3,600 RPM, and is very economical.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

Not speaking for James but I think he has several trade-in cores that are running engines that he could convert for not much money.

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Old 08-20-2010, 05:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

What sort of angle could you run the A engine to meet the shaft? Some of the shorter mahogany wonders probably had a very steep shaft angle to bring power to the prop.

Would you run a Z drive or a Tranny with a couple of U joints to keep the engine "flatter"? How did they do the aeronautical engines? I guess no steep Negative G dives with a Zenith on the side! Mine cuts out on any sort of grade up or down.

/curses Zenith
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

At The Door County Maritime Museum Classic and Wooden Boat Show a fellow brought in a Ford Flathead V-8 on a pallet. The engine was pulled out of a boat. It was fitted with the following strange items;

~A stamped steel oil pan designed for a vee drive shaft. I'd guess 20 degrees. This allows the block to be at 20 degrees with a horizontal flat bottomed oil pan.

~A cast aluminum in take manifold to bolt to the canted block but allows the one barrow carburetor to sit flat and up right. Like it would in a car. I believe a fuel pump also mounted 'square to the world' on a slopped intake manifold landing that was flat.

~Cast iron jacketed water cooled exhausts bolted to the three exhaust openings in the block. Looked like both cooling water and exhaust meant to expel through a transom. These castings did have a name embossed on them. Darn if I can remember the name.

~Two water pumps, they looked normal with the exception of an added street el drilled and tapped on the discharge side of the pumps. Hoses lead to exhaust manifold to fill the exhaust jackets.

~A cast bell housing that was fitted with an exposed cone shaped clutch on an arm that pushed the cone 'IN' to engage. Pulled it 'OUT' to disengage from about six fingers that made contact with the cone. Fingers were on the input side of the reduction box shaft.

~A driven reduction box. Ratio unknown. Had an arm on it for Forward-N-Reverse. Output side had a keyed shaft with a disc for six bolts. I assumed the matching disc was for the prop shaft going to the cutler bearing and stuffing box.

A neat set-up. The guy wanted $600.00 for it. Said he never heard it run. Didn't know if it ran and the engine had a distributor 'tween the water pumps; well kind of 'tween the pumps that looked like a spider. What a rat's nest. He did sell it at the show.

skip.

"How did they do the aeronautical engines? I guess no steep Negative G dives with a Zenith on the side! " I'm thinking while in flight the plane is rolled on it's back for a dive. This keeps the fuel on the bottom of the carb fuel bowl and no engine stalling. Now the Germans used fuel injection on the inverted V-12 cylinders and did not need to roll'em over. Just push the stick forward.

Last edited by skip; 08-20-2010 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 09:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

My Ford 8N tractor (flat head four 25hp) uses a gallon an hour.
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Old 08-20-2010, 09:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

I wish there was spell check on here
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Old 08-28-2010, 05:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

"I'm thinking while in flight the plane is rolled on it's back for a dive. This keeps the fuel on the bottom of the carb fuel bowl and no engine stalling. Now the Germans used fuel injection on the inverted V-12 cylinders and did not need to roll'em over. Just push the stick forward." I thought they rolled on their back so that the pilots could see the target better without having to peer around the front cowling?
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Old 08-20-2010, 10:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Model A Marine Engine

I looked at a little Model A powered work boat that has been owned by a fellow that used to run it when he was young.He has been planning to restore it for over 40 years.The drive off the cam gear runs a water pump,and on the one I looked at it also has a little oil pump.That one has a Paragon transmission that shifts with engine oil pressure.I have seen a lot of those Paragon transmissions on Chrysler flathead powered boats,and when the engine gets hot they won't always shift at an idle.You have to rev it up to get oil pressure and then they shift with a bang.I bet that dedicated little pump on the A engine makes for a smoother shift than the Chrysler.
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