Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2020, 10:05 PM   #41
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 860
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Dean, you are approaching this from a logical standpoint however not a lawful standpoint. The manufacturer stated the VIN for the vehicle would be the engine number. Ford had a protocol when engines were replaced where the mechanic was required to stamp the replacement engine with correct VIN. A Ford Agency was authorized to do this, -and they even warned in the Service Bulletins about outside individuals doing this re-stamping.

So the bottom-line in this is, the Title VIN does not get changed every time an engine is replaced, ...the replacement engine number does. Just because someone failed to correctly re-stamp an engine during replacement does not mean the law should provide an exemption for them. The engine number IS the correct VIN.


Yes Chris, this is a valid question coming from someone who called me asking what the correct info.
By that description, it is the frame number that is the VIN, the engine VIN pad is just the visible LOCATION for the actual VIN of the car. If you change the engine and RESTAMP the VIN ( that is on the old (original) engine and therefore on the frame) on the replacement engine, then the VIN did NOT stay with the engine. It stayed with the car.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 07:47 AM   #42
1928Mik
Senior Member
 
1928Mik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Zanesville Ohio USA
Posts: 190
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

A partner and I used to run a small company where we would purchase run down cars and part them out. That's back when you could find cars sitting in lots or fields for $50 or $100. When we would strip the car, the title always stayed with the chassis.
__________________
1928 Niagara Blue Phaeton
1972 Olds 442 Convertible
1928Mik is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-10-2020, 08:37 AM   #43
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,507
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jw hash View Post
the title should go with the chassis. the title says what the body is on that chassis. here i bought a 31 A with a 29 motor in it. years ago in this state if you change the motor you would go to the DMV and they would change the number on the title to match the motor number, I lifted the body and took the car to the DMV and had them change the vin number on the title back to the chassis number. I had installed a diamond block with no number on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Licensed to kill View Post
By that description, it is the frame number that is the VIN, the engine VIN pad is just the visible LOCATION for the actual VIN of the car. If you change the engine and RESTAMP the VIN ( that is on the old (original) engine and therefore on the frame) on the replacement engine, then the VIN did NOT stay with the engine. It stayed with the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1928Mik View Post
A partner and I used to run a small company where we would purchase run down cars and part them out. That's back when you could find cars sitting in lots or fields for $50 or $100. When we would strip the car, the title always stayed with the chassis.

This is probably the last time I am going to discuss this until I hear back from how the lawsuit comes out. I may be called as an expert witness, which is another reason why I am going to stop for now.

I will say that based on the determination of legal counsel, the engine number is the prevailing location. The question was asked to me were all frames stamped during assembly? My response was they were supposed to be however I have encountered original vehicles where there was not any evidence of a stamping. The same question was asked about the engine number, -and my answer was I feel very certain that every engine installed on the assembly line had a stamped number. The next question was, which was stamped first? The correct answer is the engine. I think the argument that is made is the frame stamping is an alternate identification area, and the engine is the primary identification area. This is confirmed by what is printed in the Instruction Book.

I know some are suggesting it is up to the state's laws. This topic came up in our discussion. A title is a legal document affirming ownership of an object. In our discussion, it was mentioned that a modern vehicle has a VIN displayed on the cowl, -and typically another VIN located on the driver's door. The manufacturer's primary VIN location is on the cowl at the bottom of the windshield, and the driver's door was an alternate location. Their opinion is the Model-A engine was the primary location for the VIN and the frame was an alternate location. Therefore their contention is the title remains with the engine which was the primary location established by Ford. I honestly see no rationale for why some state's DMV feels compelled to use the frame number as a primary source of identification. I think this boils down more to the vehicle owner was ignorant of the law, and so if the DMV told them the title goes with the frame, they just complied. Had their instruction been challenged in a court of law, likely the DMV's instructions would have been overruled.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 10:18 AM   #44
KCTA Chris
Senior Member
 
KCTA Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 140
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I worked for Pete and Jake's building chassis for years and can tell you its an issue here, back in the 90's there was a lot of bills passed to help through SEMA. Missouri title stays with chassis. I had an issue with a '34 where the out of state DMV kept it with the body. At that time the two department officials couldn't agree and Missouri - instead of issuing a new 551 (Drpt of Rev. new ID number) had me file for replacement title. needless to say there are two '34 ford 3 windows using the same vin in the USA.

My '55 Chevy came from Texas, Missouri thats a title/engine year, Texas is reversed, the car had a replacement motor, both again disagreed and we let them settle it out.

There is an supervising inspector (recently retired) who says there is no such thing as a chassis without a title in Missouri or vin parts for sale at swap meets, told me a titleless chassis should be surrendered to DMV. later when building a titled vintage Willys with an updated Jeep chassis (both titled) you must surrender the VIN tag to the state inspector for your new form and ID.

Recently I restored a vintage wood kit boat, had to retrack the owner after two years because he wrote the bill of sale for the outboard, and boat on one piece of paper, my state says must be to be separate papers, the neighboring state doesnt even need a title. You also need a engine title, that was not available until the 70's so more paperwork, three trips to the inspector to get it done, then they come out with my new metal tag and two 1/4 rivets. I say "hey I brought stainless wood screws". Sorry, the book says metal tag must be pop riveted to the hull, there is no provision for wood boats so thats how it has to be done. They drilled and butchered my African Mahogany and scratched the area, of course it wouldn't work so they taped it on and said to fix it off the property - sorry for the rant - still pissed.

I'm a tax paying law abiding supporting citizen but they sure make it difficult for the honest guy.
KCTA Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 10:41 AM   #45
Charlie Stephens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,541
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris in WNC View Post
A fun problem to study.

I would expect the title to follow the frame because the engine can be easily re-stamped to match the title of the car it is put into.

But if this is a bare frame, it can also be re-stamped easily.

Here's where it might get squirrely: Say the two components come from a non-title state into a title state, and both purchasers have a bill of sale they want to convert into a title for their "built-from-parts" Model A. Likely the first one to apply will get a new title and the second person will be told by DMV that the serial number is already titled.

Oh, what a tangled web.....

Brent is this an actual situation you have had to resolve? Or are you just tossing it out as an academic exercise to see which rabbit hole we go down in search of a solution.....
You should check the law about re-stamping the frame.

Charlie Stephens
Charlie Stephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 11:41 AM   #46
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,930
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
With many statutes, laws, and bylaws, there is no room for good old fashioned common sense. What is amazing is how often folks in the position of authority will choose on the side that makes no sense. Like comedian Ron White jokes, "You can't fix stupid".

A motor vehicle does not exist until it has both a motor and at least a frame, hull, or fuselage to have something that can be defined as a motor vehicle. Both the frame and the motor are essential components. In other words, Ford stamped them both and the mating of the engine to the chassis is what constituted a motor vehicle in the first place. They can argue it till the cows come home but you still can't drive a motor without a chassis. Ford did it that way so that the engines could be shipped to all the different assembly plants as separate components. Mating always happened on the assembly line and that's where they both became the same numbered assembly.

I wonder what they would say about a 1932 Ford with the numbers on the frame and the transmission but no number on the engine.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-10-2020 at 11:56 AM.
rotorwrench is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 06:15 PM   #47
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,227
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

In post # 37, I posted "All I can say is, thank goodness we don't have to worry about this stuff here."
The above two posts have reinforced that which leaves me wondering why, if the system is so problematic, do you guys not change it?
__________________
It is no burden to carry a little extra knowledge.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 06:30 PM   #48
cedar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

title shoud go with the frame.
cedar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 07:27 PM   #49
TerryO
Senior Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: N. GA
Posts: 317
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

In a lot of (most) cases the frame number and title number won't be a match...then what???
TOB
TerryO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 07:45 PM   #50
Hoop
Senior Member
 
Hoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 1,137
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I wouldn't want to put this dispute in front of a judge. It's hard to predict how she would view it.

Might say there's no "vehicle" by statute, and titles only apply to vehicles. Or, if there is one, it is being parted out (junked?) and the title should be surrendered to the state.

Don't know what these guys are paying their attorneys ... $350/hour? ...

Hopefully there's more to this story that explains why they both want the title so badly. ( ... car once belonged to Elvis?)
__________________
"Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."
Hoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 07:49 PM   #51
Russ B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Millbrae, CA
Posts: 414
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

In 1993, CA CHP did not accept my declaration that Ford considered the engine number Was the proper serial number. He insisted that the body be pulled to check the frame even though I told him the motor was original and the cabriolet had been in my family since 1929, and I was changing title from my deceased father to me, same name. When I rebuilt the car I verified the numbers matched, but by then I had a state assigned number riveted on a sheet metal, stamped B pillar cover held in place by a few nails on the wooden B pillar.

In 2010 I purchased a 29 coupe and the number matched the 1930 engine. I went to register it and take it off nonop status at the DMV office. The office registered the car without blinking an eye. The frame was a 1929 number, but not the motor. They did not care and did not ask for a verification and the car is registered under the newer motor’s number, and that motor is in my cabriolet.

So it can go either way
Russ B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 08:13 PM   #52
Jeff/Illinois
Senior Member
 
Jeff/Illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,220
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post

Don't know what these guys are paying their attorneys ... $350/hour? ...
Kind of off topic but, several years ago in a court deal I got pulled into, I asked the lawyer 'what is your rate?' at the beginning of it all and he said 'Two twenty five and hour'.

I told him 'That's less than minimum wage you need to raise your rates" He just laughed and said NO 225 DOLLARS an hour'!!
Jeff/Illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 09:52 PM   #53
A 2 B
Junior Member
 
A 2 B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I bought a 1930 Model A coupe from Michigan and imported it to Canada. The car had a V8 Flathead installed in the late 50s and was stored away since 1962. The owner still had the original engine which I declined to buy when it was offered. I acted as my own broker and presented all the required paper work when exporting. Both, state authorities and the federal customs in the US were only concerned if there were any liens on the vehicle and it was legally signed over by the owner with their name on the ownership. They did not request to see the chassis number or the engine number. They did contact the previous owner to verify the sale. Once in Canada, the license bureau only needed the number on the ownership. They didn't care about the engine number or the frame number. All 3 numbers did match though and the same number is now on the new Ontario ownership.

All it takes is a few calls to the appropriate authorities to find out what is expected since every state/province may have varying requirements. Any buyer should have the needed info beforehand.
A 2 B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 07:53 AM   #54
Chris in WNC
Senior Member
 
Chris in WNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pineville NC
Posts: 1,124
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Charlie Stephens-

I did not give the opinion that it is legal to re-stamp a frame, just that it is easy if the body is off. :-)
__________________
1931 slant windshield Town Sedan

Last edited by Chris in WNC; 09-11-2020 at 08:01 AM.
Chris in WNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 08:25 AM   #55
denis4x4
Senior Member
 
denis4x4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Durango CO
Posts: 1,155
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
We're getting off of topic here. Denis, please give me your opinion of the original question.

My post was made to show how the title process can be abused. My first Model A had a phony number stamped on the frame and it went into the CO system, that car was sold to a Florida resident and went into their system. My roadster has an A engine with the engine number ground off and it has a bonded title in CO. My CCPU was purchased in NM and was registered in CO with the engine number. I've since replaced the engine and not bothered to change the registration. If it is sold to a CO resident, there will be no issues. An out of state buyer may have problems.



There are 50 different ways to register a Model A. The lawsuit you are referring to will only prevail in the state in which it was filed. In other words, it still won't answer the original question .
__________________
No restorable Model A's were harmed in the building of this truck!
denis4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 09:34 AM   #56
Big hammer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Land of Lincoln
Posts: 2,103
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I'am sticking with, the title belongs to the person who's name appears on the the title........ If that person decides to turn the title over to the person with the engine ( body,frame,wheels, lug nuts) that's his/hers to decide, or keep the piece of paper.

I would love to be on the jury with this case :-)
__________________
Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap
get a bigger hammer tap done
Big hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 09:08 AM   #57
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 860
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Dean, you are approaching this from a logical standpoint however not a lawful standpoint. The manufacturer stated the VIN for the vehicle would be the engine number. Ford had a protocol when engines were replaced where the mechanic was required to stamp the replacement engine with correct VIN. A Ford Agency was authorized to do this, -and they even warned in the Service Bulletins about outside individuals doing this re-stamping.

So the bottom-line in this is, the Title VIN does not get changed every time an engine is replaced, ...the replacement engine number does. Just because someone failed to correctly re-stamp an engine during replacement does not mean the law should provide an exemption for them. The engine number IS the correct VIN.


Yes Chris, this is a valid question coming from someone who called me asking what the correct info.
So, I've been thinking about this for a couple days now and this IS one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Not directed at you Brent, directed at FORD. While this may be fine if one is replacing the original motor with a NEW FORD replacement at a FORD dealership where they stamp the pad with the VIN and properly dispose of the original engine, it is absolutely ridiculous when replacing a motor with one from another car. Example. My '31 fordor has an engine from a '29 coupe. If i register it with the VIN on the engine, my car would be registered as a '29 coupe which it clearly is not. SO, according to FORD, the original VIN from the original motor is to be stamped on the replacement engine. However, there is already a number stamped on the pad. Is it to be ground off?. How is this any different than stealing a car and restamping the VIN? So, I restamp the VIN on my engine to the same VIN that was on the original motor as per FORD directive, then someone decides to rebuild the original ,motor and use it. Now we have two cars with the same VIN. If there is a dispute, who will get the title??, the guy with the restamp or the guy with the factory stamp??. Besides, isn't it technically illegal to restamp or in any way tamper with a VIN??.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 09:27 AM   #58
TerryO
Senior Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: N. GA
Posts: 317
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Besides, isn't it technically illegal to restamp or in any way tamper with a VIN??.
Remember back in the day it was a serial number not a VIN...no different then the serial number on a TV today...


TOB
TerryO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 10:11 AM   #59
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,033
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

no matter how it plays out- the opposite can be argued as to being right, so all depends on the day, time and person who rules.

no different then going to your local dmv when they are in the "no" mood.
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 11:34 AM   #60
shew01
Senior Member
 
shew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA USA
Posts: 820
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronn View Post
no matter how it plays out- the opposite can be argued as to being right, so all depends on the day, time and person who rules.

no different then going to your local dmv when they are in the "no" mood.

I totally agree. You can have “all your ducks in a row” and just happen to get a grumpy DMV person that will cause you all kinds of grief. Not all DMV people are grumpy, but I tend to get the one that’s having a bad day....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.