6V Quartz Halogen Headlight Question

[Eric Lewis]

So, I just replaced the wiring harness for the headlights, horn & tail light and also "updated" to 6V quartz halogen headlights and now the ammeter pegs out at 20 amps when the lights are on. I have a 6V positive ground system with generator.

Question is: should I be concerned with the amps pegging out? And, if so any suggestions for where to go from here?
BTW, car is running better with the new wiring harness and I am having fun.

[Keith True]

When you say,pegging out,you mean discharge right? Exactly what kind of quartz conversion did you use?I'm not crazy about some of the older designs,as they run hot and draw a lot.you either have the generator set for too low of a rate,or,you may have a wire in the headlight circuit grounding out when the lights are on.I really do like the direct replacement bulbs from the Little British Car Company.They run cool,draw just a hair more than originals,and they can be focused.I tried some knock offs sold here,they were bright,but I couldn't focus them.

[1930-Pickup]

Originally Posted by Keith True

When you say,pegging out,you mean discharge right? Exactly what kind of quartz conversion did you use?I'm not crazy about some of the older designs,as they run hot and draw a lot.you either have the generator set for too low of a rate,or,you may have a wire in the headlight circuit grounding out when the lights are on.I really do like the direct replacement bulbs from the Little British Car Company.They run cool,draw just a hair more than originals,and they can be focused.I tried some knock offs sold here,they were bright,but I couldn't focus them.

This sounds interesting. Could you please provide a link?
(Sorry for the 'side-bar' to this thread)

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Eric Lewis

So, I just replaced the wiring harness for the headlights, horn & tail light and also "updated" to 6V quartz halogen headlights and now the ammeter pegs out at 20 amps when the lights are on. I have a 6V positive ground system with generator.

Question is: should I be concerned with the amps pegging out? And, if so any suggestions for where to go from here?
BTW, car is running better with the new wiring harness and I am having fun.

Eric,
The suppliers of the 6V quartz conversion kits suggest the use of an alternator. The current draw on a generator may cause damage.

I have used 6 volt quartz headlights for years. The headlight plugs in the headlight buckets get so hot, they will often melt the plastic on the plugs if a low quality plug is used. I use the "Bakelite" type material plugs available from NAPA to minimize the problem. The plug I am describing is not listed as a headlight bulb plug but as a signal flasher plug. Sorry, I don't have a part number for you....
Good Day!

[Eric Lewis]

Originally Posted by Keith True

When you say,pegging out,you mean discharge right? Exactly what kind of quartz conversion did you use?I'm not crazy about some of the older designs,as they run hot and draw a lot.you either have the generator set for too low of a rate,or,you may have a wire in the headlight circuit grounding out when the lights are on.I really do like the direct replacement bulbs from the Little British Car Company.They run cool,draw just a hair more than originals,and they can be focused.I tried some knock offs sold here,they were bright,but I couldn't focus them.

when you say I have the generator set to low of a rate, how can I change it? what should it be changed to?
No shorts as it a new wiring harness and all new sockets for the head lights

[Eric Lewis]

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Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Eric,
The suppliers of the 6V quartz conversion kits suggest the use of an alternator. The current draw on a generator may cause damage.

I have used 6 volt quartz headlights for years. The headlight plugs in the headlight buckets get so hot, they will often melt the plastic on the plugs if a low quality plug is used. I use the "Bakelite" type material plugs available from NAPA to minimize the problem. The plug I am describing is not listed as a headlight bulb plug but as a signal flasher plug. Sorry, I don't have a part number for you....
Good Day!

The supplier said no changes needed, what damage to the generator due to current draw?

[Eric Lewis]

Originally Posted by Keith True

When you say,pegging out,you mean discharge right? Exactly what kind of quartz conversion did you use?I'm not crazy about some of the older designs,as they run hot and draw a lot.you either have the generator set for too low of a rate,or,you may have a wire in the headlight circuit grounding out when the lights are on.I really do like the direct replacement bulbs from the Little British Car Company.They run cool,draw just a hair more than originals,and they can be focused.I tried some knock offs sold here,they were bright,but I couldn't focus them.

Pegging out = discharge, ammeter is going + >20 amps
Conversion was Quartz Halogen 6V from Mikes http://www.mikes-afordable.com/category/1074.html

[Tom Endy]

Years ago my first Model A was equipped with Halogen headlights by the previous owner. The electrical system was 6-volt positive ground with a stock generator. When the headlights were turned on it would peg the ammeter. If I drove any distance at night it would discharge the battery. I replaced the Halogens with stock bulbs.


I do not know how much current the Halogens were pulling, but it was more that 20 amps and certainly more than the stock generator could supply.


Your best bet is to install LED headlights as they draw little current. The other option is to install an alternator that is capable of putting out sufficient current.


Tom Endy

[Eric Lewis]

Thank You all, looks like I will be going to stock bulbs to save the battery from discharging.

[cpf240]

Originally Posted by Eric Lewis

Thank You all, looks like I will be going to stock bulbs to save the battery from discharging.

Maybe only drive it during the day?

There is a third brush in the generator that is adjustable to change the amount of charge. It was/is common to adjust it for more charging when it is expected to be driven more with the lights on.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Eric Lewis

The supplier said no changes needed, what damage to the generator due to current draw?

The supplier I purchased from (Snyder's) states: "You need to have an alternator on your car to run these."
I do mean damage from too much current draw from your generator. Drawing over 20 amps as indicated from the amp meter being pegged may overheat the generator. JMO
Good Day!

[Bill G]

You definitely need an alternator if you are going to use Halogen headlights. The generator normally is set for maybe 8-10 amps charge rate. If your lights sink 20 amps, then you won't keep up.

Yes, you can set the generator for more output, but even if you could get 20 amps out of the generator to keep up with the headlights, you would likely overcharge the battery when the lights are off and on a longer trip, since there is no ability to cut off the generator when it charges too much. The cut-out relay only cuts the generator out of the circuit when the generator does not put out enough to charge.

[Kurt in NJ]

If you look in the owners instruction book you would read that there will be a discharge showing with the headlights on

I have the direct fit 35 watt bulbs in my car for over 15 years--with a stock generator---if your charging rate is high enough daytime driving makes up for night discharge

[Hunter]

Timely discussion. Last night I attended one of my local clubs and we had a great presentation on Model A light bulbs. The fellow that gave the presentation, Luke Chaplin, went over all the bulbs that are currently available and the pros and cons.

The halogen bulbs do pull a lot of amperage and get quite hot. The amperage draw for the set he had hooked up was about 10 amps, I believe. He showed us the brightness of various bulbs using a set of actual model A headlights. The hands down winner was LED bulbs from a British company, see attached image.
The current draw as low and the lighting was spectacular. Very nice and uniform.

He mentioned that the these bulbs are properly designed so that they focus properly, whereas many being sold are improperly designed and cannot be focused.

They are expensive, looks like about 76 dollars for a set, but they are a thing of beauty.

[gearloose]

http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/page3.html

I run them with a hi output 6v alternator from nu-rex and new reflectors from Bratton's. The light output is as bright as sealed beams or better.

[Hunter]

Failed to include the website for the LED bulbs:

www.dynamoreregulatorconversions.com

[katy]

I'd be careful buying British headlight bulbs. As they drive on the LH side of the road their beams go slightly down and to the left, whereas in North America the beams go slightly down and to the right.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

Years ago my first Model A was equipped with Halogen headlights by the previous owner. The electrical system was 6-volt positive ground with a stock generator. When the headlights were turned on it would peg the ammeter. If I drove any distance at night it would discharge the battery. I replaced the Halogens with stock bulbs.


I do not know how much current the Halogens were pulling, but it was more that 20 amps and certainly more than the stock generator could supply.


Your best bet is to install LED headlights as they draw little current. The other option is to install an alternator that is capable of putting out sufficient current.


Tom Endy

You can also use the correct ford shaped reflectors that Brattons sells along with bulbs that have the properly shaped filaments and stay stock.

[GPierce]

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/
This one works

[Kurt in NJ]

I measured to amps on my system,
Halogen bulbs, 2 tail lights--- 14 amps
50cp regular bulbs with 2 tail lights--- 18 amps

I reduced the charge rate I had when I put in the halogen bulbs, long daylight drive I run with lights on some, generator is fine, battery not dead, only charged while driving---- remember the light are a system, bright bulbs with bad focus just get hot, use too much electricity, blind oncoming driver, and still you can't see down the road

[Eric Lewis]

All good input, Thank You All!
Went back to the stock lamps and I still show +>20 Amps with out the engine running, I guess the ammeter is wired backwards.'cause I am thinking the ammeter should show negative when turning on the lights without the engine running. Electricity and I never got along very well.......

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Eric Lewis

All good input, Thank You All!
Went back to the stock lamps and I still show +>20 Amps with out the engine running, I guess the ammeter is wired backwards.'cause I am thinking the ammeter should show negative when turning on the lights without the engine running. Electricity and I never got along very well.......

I suspect you have a partial short somewhere. You should not be pulling current from the battery when the engine is not running and the headlights are turned off.


Doesn't matter if the ammeter is showing plus or minus, that is just a matter of reversing the wires at the meter. The more important question is: what is drawing the current? I would start disconnecting things to see if the current draw goes away. Poor quality stop light switches and headlight sockets are notorious for shorting out.


Somebody in your club who is an electrical nerd should be able to sort it out for you.


Tom Endy

[updraught]

Originally Posted by katy

I'd be careful buying British headlight bulbs. As they drive on the LH side of the road their beams go slightly down and to the left, whereas in North America the beams go slightly down and to the right.

On the A there shouldn't be any difference LHD or RHD.

On later cars the light is directed by the lense to L or R. Later again by the reflector.
No difference in bulbs that I know of.

[Eric Lewis]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I suspect you have a partial short somewhere. You should not be pulling current from the battery when the engine is not running and the headlights are turned off.


Doesn't matter if the ammeter is showing plus or minus, that is just a matter of reversing the wires at the meter. The more important question is: what is drawing the current? I would start disconnecting things to see if the current draw goes away. Poor quality stop light switches and headlight sockets are notorious for shorting out.


Somebody in your club who is an electrical nerd should be able to sort it out for you.


Tom Endy

Tom, The current draw is when the lights are ON

[Bill G]

It still does not seem logical to be drawing 20 amps with stock headlights. Perhaps your ammeter is shot, but usually a bad ammeter won't register more amps than it is drawing so Tom's idea that a partial short in the headlight or tail light circuit makes sense. One other thought is to check to see if the needle on the ammeter is centered at zero with everything turned off.

The fact that it registers on the positive side indicates that the ammeter connections are reversed, which is an easy fix or the battery has its negative side connected to ground instead of positive. You did indicate in your original post that it is positive ground, but worth double checking any way. If the battery does happen to be reversed, then when reconnecting it, you would have to re polarize your generator.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Headlamp connector terminals might be shorting to ground, or to each other making all 4 filaments light up at the same time.

[Eric Lewis]

Originally Posted by Magicbox51

It still does not seem logical to be drawing 20 amps with stock headlights. Perhaps your ammeter is shot, but usually a bad ammeter won't register more amps than it is drawing so Tom's idea that a partial short in the headlight or tail light circuit makes sense. One other thought is to check to see if the needle on the ammeter is centered at zero with everything turned off.

The fact that it registers on the positive side indicates that the ammeter connections are reversed, which is an easy fix or the battery has its negative side connected to ground instead of positive. You did indicate in your original post that it is positive ground, but worth double checking any way. If the battery does happen to be reversed, then when reconnecting it, you would have to re polarize your generator.

Short in headlight connections looks like the culprit. I did use the little black plug things and can see how the pins could short to the socket housing. Now to come up with a way to wire directly and still use the wiring conduit

Reversed the wires on the ammeter and it is now showing discharge when the horn is sounded or the lights tuned on.

Battery is installed correctly, positive ground.

[Eric Lewis]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Headlamp connector terminals might be shorting to ground, or to each other making all 4 filaments light up at the same time.

Looks like this is the culprit.
Thank You

[Tom Wesenberg]

Some guys have used a Dremel to grind the contacts diameter smaller to prevent shorts.
If they have enough slop, then some heat shrink might snug them up.

[GPierce]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Timely discussion. Last night I attended one of my local clubs and we had a great presentation on Model A light bulbs. The fellow that gave the presentation, Luke Chaplin, went over all the bulbs that are currently available and the pros and cons.

The halogen bulbs do pull a lot of amperage and get quite hot. The amperage draw for the set he had hooked up was about 10 amps, I believe. He showed us the brightness of various bulbs using a set of actual model A headlights. The hands down winner was LED bulbs from a British company, see attached image.
The current draw as low and the lighting was spectacular. Very nice and uniform.

He mentioned that the these bulbs are properly designed so that they focus properly, whereas many being sold are improperly designed and cannot be focused.

They are expensive, looks like about 76 dollars for a set, but they are a thing of beauty.

Has anyone used this FB2A BA15D LED headlight bulb?

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by GPierce

Has anyone used this FB2A BA15D LED headlight bulb?

If the source of the light is such that the focus of the reflector (low versus high beam) would be similar to the position of the filament in an incandescent bulb it might work.

Hunter said regarding his club lecture:

"He mentioned that the these bulbs are properly designed so that they focus properly, whereas many being sold are improperly designed and cannot be focused."

That would be my concern. Absolute brute-force brightness may compensate for focusing versus not on low beam, but you want to make sure they lights are not going to blind someone even on low beam.

[GPierce]

Has anyone used this light.
I understand the the engineering aspects. I’m curious if any of you have actually used them.

[Graham]

I've been using the LED BA15d's for a couple years now and find they are great. Bright, very low power consumption, and even if my voltage varies a bit, there is no brightness change. And the generator is always charging. No issues at all so far.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by Graham

I've been using the LED BA15d's for a couple years now and find they are great. Bright, very low power consumption, and even if my voltage varies a bit, there is no brightness change. And the generator is always charging. No issues at all so far.

I can imagine the LED's are plenty bright but how are they to focus?

[GPierce]

Originally Posted by Graham

I've been using the LED BA15d's for a couple years now and find they are great. Bright, very low power consumption, and even if my voltage varies a bit, there is no brightness change. And the generator is always charging. No issues at all so far.

Thankyou, that was helpful and the kind of response I was looking for.
Gilbert

[updraught]

A pair of LED's (6-12 volt) is 60 pounds to delivered to here in Oz. (I assume because we don't pay the 20% VAT.)

The Ron Francis (12 volt) bulbs are $US16 each and I'd need three (one spare) and I guess shipping at $US30 (might be conservative).
https://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=B%2D1125

After doing the currency conversion to A$ the cost is about the same for us.


A couple of things on the LED web site:

"The top LED gives dipped beam, both LED's on gives high beam."
...
"

Multi voltage - Each bulb will work on both 6v and 12v systems

(one bulb suits both voltages)

Negative and positive earth available"

[GPierce]

Ordered my LED headlights last week. About $80. Including shipping. This should satisfy my wife’s fear of riding with me at night because of the dim headlights compared to more modern cars.
Already had LED tail lights and turn signals.

[Kurt in NJ]

[QUOTE=updraught;1601481]A pair of LED's (6-12 volt) is 60 pounds to delivered to here in Oz. (I assume because we don't pay the 20% VAT.)

The Ron Francis (12 volt) bulbs are $US16 each and I'd need three (one spare) and I guess shipping at $US30 (might be conservative).
https://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=B%2D1125

After doing the currency conversion to A$ the cost is about the same for us.


A couple of things on the LED web site:

"The top LED gives dipped beam, both LED's on gives high beam."
...
"

Multi voltage - Each bulb will work on both 6v and 12v systems

(one bulb suits both voltages) [CENTER]Negative and positive earth available"

try here, your shipping is probably much less
http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/

[updraught]

>>try here, your shipping is probably much less

Thanks. Didn't think they were doing LED.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by Eric Lewis

So, I just replaced the wiring harness for the headlights, horn & tail light and also "updated" to 6V quartz halogen headlights and now the ammeter pegs out at 20 amps when the lights are on. I have a 6V positive ground system with generator.

Question is: should I be concerned with the amps pegging out? And, if so any suggestions for where to go from here?
BTW, car is running better with the new wiring harness and I am having fun.

I have performed a similar mod using H6006 sealed beams. I have posted info but it is not connected to this thread. What I can tell you is, if you plan on not replacing the 3 brush gen, you need to manually adjust the 3rd brush. But, here is the but! What follows is my info on current increase and other info I researched all the way to England................Follow up on H6006 Sealed beam modification! I completed the modification, and discovered:

1) The original wire clips that hold the Ford diffuser lens to the headlight ring were missing on the second headlight, it was just kind of jury rigged to hold together, got some replacements here locally. (within Missouri) This had nothing to do with the actual mod but…………(be prepared)
2) Comments concerning increased current drain are true. If you do this mod, and plan on a lot of night driving, either the three brush generator needs modified to 2 brush with a 6 volt positive ground regulator, or bite the bullet and get a 6 volt self-regulating positive ground alternator, (and mounting kit), and have the job done right.
3) I found for night driving with my 3 brush set at 10 amps charge that, on low beam, I am discharging 3 amps at running speed, and 7 amps discharge on high beam. For my type of driving, no more than one hour at night, this is not an issue. High beam could be an issue but low beam worked fine.
4) I do not recommend turning up the 3rd brush to compensate, if you do much day driving as, at the turn up to about 17 amps, much day driving will boil water out of the battery, and that is a lot of floorboard opening to get the battery refilled with water. (and the generator is just about at it’s limit. I guess I could leave the lights on all the time but ???????????
5) I wrote to: Classic Dynamo & Regulator Conversions (CDRC) Ltd [email protected] , and received a reply the same day, (their night time), concerning my enquiry! And here is what I got back from Peter J. Jury…..
Yes, we have the bulbs you require.
Choose BA15d and the polarity to suit your car here http://www.dynamoregulatorconversion...bulbs-shop.php

6) Using the Halogen as you did or the BRIT LED's requires good reflectors, mine were shot and I heard bad things about modern replacements!

7) Conclusion – If I was starting on this all over again, knowing what I know now, I would have replaced the reflectors with something suitable, got the BA15d LED’s with a spare, for about $128.00 US, installed them, and had a fully workable day and night driving headlamp, and probably be able to crank down my 3 brush generator to 4 amps!

Hope this helps