Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

[Scotty H]

I have a 1928 tudor that I'm about to just give away . Not! The car sat for 2 years after Dad passed away and little by little I have been restoring it , the engine is clean and everything was functional . I went to start it after timing it and it rotated a quarter turn . Turned out the battery was bad due to a shorted starter . Installed new battery new starter with only a thump and a bent bendex . Dad had put the small steel crank pulley on it omitting the crank handle ,I guess I need to reinstall it .
I removed the starter and shifted in 3rd rocking the car now the engine doesn't rotate ?
Any ideas why engine did this , my next step is to drop the pan and valve cover and inspect . Maybe shimmed too much but it ran before .It also rotated rocking car in 3rd to set timing ???
Please help

[Bob C]

Is there a bendix bolt down in the flywheel housing??


Bob

[Scotty H]

Both bolts were on the shaft when I removed the starter but the spring was twisted , thats gotta be where I need to look but it did not look like there was parts missing .I hope the flywheel has got all its teeth . Thanks for the help Bob.

[ronn]

Make sure the correct bolts are in the starter at the correct locations. Once put a long where a short was supposed to go and my motor wouldnt turn either..........

[chap52]

Had a ring gear slip off of the flywheel once, same symptoms. But I will check those bolts first. Sometimes we put them back the way we found them only to find that we have the same issue as before. Keep us posted, Chap

[Jacksonlll]

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With the starter removed, see if you can turn the engine over by rocking it.

[Synchro909]

You say you put the car in 3rd gear and rocked it but the engine doesn’t rotate. Could there be an issue in the transmission? Have you tried turning the engine with the crank handle? Try taking out the spark plugs and turning the crank handle with the car in neutral. Is is still locked? Try doing the same with the car in top gear. Is it still locked? Repeat with someone hiding the clutch pedal down. You should now be able to work out where the problem is - engine or further back.

[Purdy Swoft]

It sounds like a stuck closed valve . If the engine can be turned backwards , even just a little , this should tell you something .

[michael a]

If it were mine I would pull the spark plugs squirt a little oil down the cylinders and with the starter removed I would try to move the motor with a pry bar on this ring gear one tooth at a time

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https://youtu.be/_Eb9gPUEhNA

Good video on unsticking a Model A engine after 40 year sleep.

[Corley]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

It sounds like a stuck closed valve . If the engine can be turned backwards , even just a little , this should tell you something .

Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense.

On problems like this, it's best to visit the area last touched, in this case the starter swap. Most likely the problem is associated with that. Perhaps something dropped in the starter hole and is blocking the crankshaft from turning.

No dice there, then half split the problem. You can easily eliminate the transmission area with a big screw driver on the ring gear, try to turn the crankshaft. If it turns, the problem is from the trans back. If still no turn, the problem is in the engine. Next, eliminate everything ancilery that you can. Pull fan belt, pull plugs, etc. Still no turn? Sorry, you are now in the guts of the engine.

You mentioned shims, that worries me. In order to mess with shims, you've had to remove/replace hold down bolts on the bearings. Also, something could be out of place, or something could have been left in the pan. Typically, in these cases, the engine will turn backwards a bit. If it's locked solid, you may have a sized bearing, rings jammed in a cylinder, something broken, etc. Did something get into the timing pin hole and jam the cam gear? At that point, the pan has to come off at a minimum.

Just my opinion, nothing more...

So, where are you at on isolation?

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by michael a

If it were mine I would pull the spark plugs squirt a little oil down the cylinders and with the starter removed I would try to move the motor with a pry bar on this ring gear one tooth at a time

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I would do the same !!! If the engine would turn a little bit backwards that would tell me that the problem was more than likely a stuck closed valve . In worst cases I would remove the valve cover and the manifold assy . I would spray the valve stems through the ports with a good penetrant so it could flow down the stems and hopefully in to the valve guides .

[gustafson]

"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree

[Scotty H]

Thanks for all the replies . I have dropped the pan and im going to fiddle with the crank ,but it will take a month of Sundays to finish I may have to bite the bullet and sell it .

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by gustafson

"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree

Here is my thought and experience . Valves are just as likelyto stick up as down !!! If you have enough experience with engines to visualize this , here goes . The valve is stuck closed. The lobe of the camshaft is up against the lifter that lifts the valve . The valve is stuck and the lifter cai't move to lift the valve . You could watch with the pan off . When the engine is turned in the reverse direction , the lobe of the cam will turn back around to the other side of the lifter that cant move because the valve that it would lift is stuck closed . If and when the stuck closed valve or valves get unstuck . the engine should fully rotate again . Valves often can stick open . Stuck open valves cain't lock up the engine but does remove compression , completely from the effected cylinder . A tight engine can lock up easier . An engine with lots of worn in clearance wont stick as easily . I've owned and worked on model A's for 58 vears. I have had to un stick a lot of open and closed valves on model A engines as well as other engines , This is really common for older engines if they sit for long periods of time . believe it or not .

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by gustafson

"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree

Here is my thought and experience . Valves are just as likelyto stick up as down !!! If you have enough experience with engines to visualize this , here goes . The valve is stuck closed. The lobe of the camshaft is up against the lifter that lifts the valve . The valve is stuck and the lifter cai't move to lift the valve . You could watch with the pan off . When the engine is turned in the reverse direction , the lobe of the cam will turn back around to the other side of the lifter that cant move because the valve that it would lift is stuck closed . If and when the stuck closed valve or valves get unstuck . the engine should fully rotate again . Valves often can stick open . Stuck open valves cain't lock up the engine but does remove compression , completely from the effected cylinder . A tight engine can lock up easier . An engine with lots of worn in clearance wont stick as easily . I've owned and worked on model A's for 58 vears. I have had to un stick a lot of open and closed valves on model A engines as well as other engines , This is really common for older engines if they sit for long periods of time . believe it or not .

[Brentwood Bob]

The new starter could have a bent shaft. Pull the starter to then eliminate it from the lock up problem.

[gustafson]

" Valves are just as likely to stick up as down"

A valve would have to be stuck really hard in the closed position for the cam not to be able to push it up. As far as sticking open, only the relatively weak spring pressure is trying to close it, not the positive lever action of the cam

I doubt sitting for 2 years is long enough to bind up a valve in the closed position

His problem is elsewhere

[Tom Wesenberg]

Wisconsin air cooled V4 engines used on swathers are famous for exhaust valves sticking during the off season. I saw one snap the camshaft in half from a stuck valve. I have a Renault Dauphine with a stuck valve, so the crankshaft will turn, but not 2 full revolutions. Valves can stick in any position, and I wouldn't force it too hard if it's stuck.

[Brentwood Bob]

When the valve stuck on an engine of mine the engine stopped. Several of us learned an expensive lesson that day

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by gustafson

" Valves are just as likely to stick up as down"

A valve would have to be stuck really hard in the closed position for the cam not to be able to push it up. As far as sticking open, only the relatively weak spring pressure is trying to close it, not the positive lever action of the cam

I doubt sitting for 2 years is long enough to bind up a valve in the closed position

His problem is elsewhere

It doesn't necessarily take a long time for valves to stick . Tight engines with new valve gear will stick the quickest . New stainless valves can stick quickly if the guides are in good shape and ethanol fuel is used. When ethanol fuel is used with stainless steel valves it is best to add Marvel mystery oil to the fuel. This pertains to most engines . I had lots of problems with valves sticking on my Massey Harris tractor , old jeep pickups with continental engines , even Honda motor cycle engines with overhead cam . Anybody that has much hands on experience with engines will know this. I mostly post here to help people with little or no experience with model A's . Somebody with model A experience needs to help pass on helpful info before it is lost . Theory or just wrong info doesn't help anybody and only shows what little the person that posts it actually knows . . All things that apply to modern engines sure as hell doesn't apply to the model A . Many things can lock up any engine . Stuck closed valves are a common thing that can lock up a model A engine .

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Wisconsin air cooled V4 engines used on swathers are famous for exhaust valves sticking during the off season. I saw one snap the camshaft in half from a stuck valve. I have a Renault Dauphine with a stuck valve, so the crankshaft will turn, but not 2 full revolutions. Valves can stick in any position, and I wouldn't force it too hard if it's stuck.

Thanks Tom for your REAL experience and good info . New people to the model A hobby need real world answers like yours !!!!!!!

[gustafson]

" I mostly post here to help people with little or no experience with model A's ."


Me too

[Purdy Swoft]

Some already believe you . Maybe they will learn something .

[Corley]

Originally Posted by gustafson

" Valves are just as likely to stick up as down"

A valve would have to be stuck really hard in the closed position for the cam not to be able to push it up. As far as sticking open, only the relatively weak spring pressure is trying to close it, not the positive lever action of the cam

I doubt sitting for 2 years is long enough to bind up a valve in the closed position

His problem is elsewhere

I suppose my more than 50 years of wrenching on As should qualify me to agree with this post, but I imagine some self proclaimed experts would disagree. Oh yeah, right, I forgot, we have "real experts here" to whom I shall defer.

So, what did the problem turn out to be, anyway?

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Valves can also stick from using this corn crap gas, and from being assembled with too little stem clearance. About 15 years ago my 1939 motorbike stuck an exhaust valve. I had accidentally put some old crap gas (10% corn crap) in the gas tank, then rode the bike about 5 miles. A day or two later I went to start the engine, and it had no compression. I pulled the head and found the exhaust valve stuck open, and it was stuck so hard that I had to spray the stem with Kroil and use a hammer and punch to knock it down. I'd then turn the engine over and have to repeat this. It took about 10 times of repeating this before it was operating correctly. That crap gas is bad stuff, but when it gets old, it's really bad.

[Corley]

I've had several different valves stick open on various rigs, but never ever stuck closed to where the cam action did not lift them when starting. On the model A, I KNOW from experience (when an oil pump jammed), that the starter's torque will take teeth off of the fiber cam gear if the cam can't turn, and that is why I say this problem is not a stuck valve.

But, I'm usually wrong when I'm sure that I'm right. Ha!

(Tom, I'd make a comment about Studebakers, but a valve on my Avanti tends to stick open every now and then... A little overnight soak with Sea Foam and it's right as rain. Done it twice now, same valve, #4 intake. Backfires and farts when it sticks.). Much more common on low spring pressure engines though.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd be sure to use gas without corn, if you can find it, and also use 4 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil to each 10 gallons of gas. Today's gas doesn't have the lubricity of the good gas of the 60's and 70's.

[rusted]

The three bolts holding the starter are not the same length! If you put a longer one in that hits the flywheel, It will act as if the engine is locked up. I would pull the starter and see if things turn in gear and go from there.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by rusted

The three bolts holding the starter are not the same length! If you put a longer one in that hits the flywheel, It will act as if the engine is locked up. I would pull the starter and see if things turn in gear and go from there.

That rumor keeps getting repeated, but all 3 mounting bolts are 1" long.

[rusted]

I helped a friend finish putting an engine in his car. the starter would not turn the engine over. I pulled him with his tractor and he popped the clutch. Worse sound I ever heard from a model A engine. we were taking the engine back out when he set the starter bolts on the bench and noticed that one was shorter than the other two. He looked at the flywheel and could see where the bolt was hitting on it. maybe he had the wrong bolts to start with but one of the three was shorter than the other two. Put the shorter one in where it is by the flywheel and the starter worked fine. I am just saying this just in case someone puts the wrong length bolt in that spot. A lot easer to check that than pull the pan for no reason.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Look it up in the venders catalog. They’re all the same. It’s easy to mix up bolts if theyre not marked and baged. I did it with the flywheel and luckily I didn’t totally strip out the threads when it bottomed out.

[DHZIEMAN]

There is a possibility, something from the defective starter went down and has the ring gear locked up against the housing some how which could lock up the engine That is where I would start investigating. (as long as you know there was oil in the engine)