B-3311 steering ball. Taper too big.

[Mart]

I bought some of these steering ball studs from Macs a while ago and I couldn't use them because the tapered part is too big. I put them on one side and recently ordered some more from C&G. I telephoned C&G (from England, a transatlantic call,) and specifically asked if the ball studs fit the steering arms, and could they do a physical check before sending them (as I had a problem before). I was assured they do not get them from macs and they look right.

Guess what? While obviously different from the Macs ones, they are wrong in exactly the same way. The taper is too big a diameter.

Being across the pond, it isn't easy to send stuff back, so I did what I should have done the first time around, modified them myself to fit correctly.

But why is it that 2 suppliers have it wrong? How come it takes me, 3000+ miles away to have to point it out to them?

It's a good job I have a nice Myford lathe and an engineering apprenticeship history.

Here are a few pics:

1, An early ford steering ball stud in a 37-41 pitman arm (same taper).


2, A Macs steering ball in the same piece.


3, A C&G ball stud in the same piece. Note the similar fit.


4, Here's my makeshift setup in the Myford Lathe.


5, To turn a taper you have to set the topslide at an angle. half of 7 degrees is 3-1/2 degrees.


6, Here we have, (L-R), an original Ford stud, a modified Mac's stud, an unmodified Macs stud, an unmodified C&G stud, a modified C&G stud, and another early ford one.


You can see why I wanted some new ones.

Anyone else had this problem?

Mart.

[BILL WZOREK]

Hi Mart:

I am Always trying to learn > so that being said < where did the 7 Degrees come from ? Also by going by 1/2 = 3 1/2 Degrees does that establish the proper angle of the taper ???

[V8COOPMAN]

Jeez, I remember the ones from Argentina in the '60s being the same...not a "new" problem. Like you (I'm sure), I've always pondered why so much "useless" junk has been "reproduced"... well...so inaccurately. DD

[Mart]

Bill, yeah, if you are turning a taper you have to set the topslide to half of the desired angle. 7 degrees is (more or less) an industry standard.

Coopman, yes, you're right, I think the problem is the parts now are copies of copies of copies, and things have drifted. I had the same problem with shackle bushes. I am fed up of buying and shipping stuff long distances to find that it is no good.

Mart.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Look up Richard EV8 garage...or contact him at his business site. He mentioned this a while back, and said that he had actually persuaded Mac's to fix the problem. Did they??
Has anyone ordered any of these from them in the last year or so?

[David J]

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I am not aware of any modern produced ones that aren't junk . Mart seems to have the handiness to deal with this but I for one do not so these junkolla studs have ended up in the metal bucket . NOS ones are the ticket but they aren't as easy to find as they used to be . Also I have some NORS ones that have the right taper BUT the necking down part is way off . Same end result as the new produced ones - JUNKOLLA !!! Like stated above it reminds me of the JC Whitney Industria Argentina stuff .

[Kube]

Just out of curiosity... was the taper the correct degree but simply too large?
Drake steering wheels are that way. The correct taper but no one seems to know enough to check the diameter of the end. One wheel was too tight and two were way too loose. The correct taper all three times...

[Mart]

Yeah, the angle is right, but the diameter is too big. It is very important to get the diameter right, because for every few thou error, the linear displacement is multiplied by (I think) about 12 times.

Mart.

[Bubsyouruncle]

7 degrees is the correct angle for a wedge fit, so that is why you get that angle. As far as them being too big, I bought a couple from Spadero many years ago that were the right size.

[Richard (EV8G)]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Look up Richard EV8 garage...or contact him at his business site. He mentioned this a while back, and said that he had actually persuaded Mac's to fix the problem. Did they??
Has anyone ordered any of these from them in the last year or so?

Mac's has the correct ones, but they and others obviously also have the old incorrect ones that they are selling. Before I was able to work with Mac's to have them corrected (several years ago) I had a tapered mill cutter made and actually cut the taper in the spindle arm deeper until 1/2" of thread was exposed as is the original. That was a good fix, but was also a major PITA, as I did not have a bunch to do at one time, so had to do the setup every time I needed to do a pair...
I grew tired of it and sent them an original stud, a new incorrect stud and the end of a spindle arm with the correct taper. This made the problem very obvious and something was done about it.

The incorrect studs have a silver finish, while the correct ones have a black finish. I am a dealer for Mac's so I will contact them and see what the current situation is...

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Mart

Yeah, the angle is right, but the diameter is too big. It is very important to get the diameter right, because for every few thou error, the linear displacement is multiplied by (I think) about 12 times.

Mart.

I only asked as I was (prior to retirement) a tool & die maker as well as the quailty control person for everything coming out of the tool room.
Like the Drake steering wheels I'd mentioned in an earlier post, it amazes me how poorly some of this stuff is produced.
Tapers are fairly easy to produce. Doesn't anyone know that they must be checked for diameter too? A rhetorical question as the answer is obvious.

[DavidG]

Apart from the entirely valid concerns regarding taper and diameter, what about the metallurgy? The color of a NOS ball stud tells you that it has undergone heat treating and the colors of the reproductions in the photo above shows no such evidence. These are kind of life-threatening parts if they fail in use. Does anyone believe that the metallurgy of these parts and others like them are equal to the originals? Not I.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Apart from the entirely valid concerns regarding taper and diameter, what about the metallurgy? The color of a NOS ball stud tells you that it has undergone heat treating and the colors of the reproductions in the photo above shows no such evidence. These are kind of life-threatening parts if they fail in use. Does anyone believe that the metallurgy of these parts and others like them are equal to the originals? Not I.

Dave, That occurred to me as well. I looked at the picture of the lathe cutter, carbide tip for certain and the chips... just seemed to be cutting it way too easily for a properly hardened part.

[Tony, NY]

I bought a taper reamer from Speedway. Might be an easier way (enlarge hole) if the need be.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-8...ree,23738.html

[Carter]

The ones I bought from Macs a year or so ago had the taper wrong. They sat down in the hole like an original, but you could wobble it a little. In checking with a caliper, the taper at the big end was a few thousands too small and at the small end, it was a few thousands too big. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I've got a pile of them sitting on the desk in the garage.

[NealinCA]

I have bought the correct ones from the Early Ford Store in San Dimas and Joblot in NY. Both of these were supplied in a black oxide finish, leading me to believe they were heat treated. The ones I bought from C&G were zinc plated and too large of taper. They went in the scrap bin...

Neal

[LSGUN]

Thanks for the heads up Neal, I went ahead and ordered one from the Early Ford Store.

Edit: Call the store a specifically ask for the correct ones, they aren't listed on the site.

[Brian]

I see a further problem in enlarging the female taper in the steering arm in order to make the parts fit, in that once enlarged, original [dimensioned] male components will no longer ever possibly be made to fit. Marts solution is better, and in fact is the correct approach, but the heat treatment and metallergy of this reproduction stuff is surely questionable too.
Mart raises very valid points in this post

[bct]

Could someone let me know what/who c&g is?

[deuce lover]

Just Google C & G Ford parts in Escondido,CA.