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Old 05-20-2022, 02:49 PM   #1
DRG-ler
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Default Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

As I wrote here... recently, it destroyed my head gasket. It burned out between cylinders 3 and 4. After some research, I decided to use a modern head gasket with a silicone insert. Unfortunately, that was an absolute mistake, because the silicone insert in the area between cylinders 2 and 3 does NOT seal a water channel in the head!

As you can see in the video, the coolant leaks between the head and the gasket, not between the block and the gasket.

http://www.drg-ler.de/Bilder/Ford/Ko...ung/Wasser.mp4

As you can see, the block has no water channel in the area of ​​the marking.



The head gasket also has no water channel in this area.



However, the head has a water channel at these points!!!




I have drawn the position of the silicone insert here. (Green) As you can see, the silicone insert at this point does not seal either to the outside or to the combustion chamber. For me, this seal represents a production error, since the design was not thought through to the end and the silicone insert is in the wrong place.

Very annoying for me, because I can now replace the seal again. There have been additional costs, it's more work again, and worst of all, I have to cancel a trip to a meeting because I won't be able to get a replacement until Wednesday. Annoys me a lot!

Just wanted to touch on the topic here so that other users don't get this problem too.

Oh yeah, the head wasn't warped, I checked that.

Greetings from Berlin

Andy
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:28 PM   #2
johnneilson
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Andy,

Not that I am an expert here, but is it possible this is a G28 motor and not Model "A"?

I have never seen a water cutout there, it is in a really bad place as the deck is very weak there.

John
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

That's very interesting the way that silicon is routed. I can see where that would cause problems. It appears they made the gasket to fit the block but neglected to turn over the hed to ensure it fit the head. I don't recommend that type of gasket. Others have had issues with that gasket also. I use the Best Graphtite 509G.
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Old 05-20-2022, 04:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

To be honest I don't know the differences between the G28t and Model-A engine, but according to the engine number this engine was used for export in the 1930's, which coincides with the fact that the Ford was assembled in Denmark, and exported to Sweden. I think it's an original Model-A engine. The cutout is only on the cylinder head there, not on the engine block!!! I also think that a mistake was made in the development of the seal. This water channel can also be found there on pictures of other cylinder heads from the Model-A.
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Old 05-20-2022, 04:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

I smear a light coating of threebond sealant around the steam vent holes on the deck it wouldn’t hurt doing it where you faced issues as well. I think ford didn’t open the deck there for more efficient water flow through the head, it would create turbulence.. why they left the port in the head surface is interesting though.
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Old 05-20-2022, 08:19 PM   #6
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

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Until you change those rusted "Mae West'ed" cylinder head studs, you will probably not be able to hold ANY head gasket for long, especially if you have installed a non-stock compression cylinder head, such as a Snyder or standard Brumfield. I learned this lesson 30 years ago when I installed my first Brumfield standard head. The instructions specifically stated that new head studs must be used to keep the head from shifting. I thought my two-year old studs were o.k., so I didn't replace them. Sure enough! The head gasket blew out and began leaking in short order, even though I had religiously followed the torquing procedure in the first couple hundred miles. Discussing the problem with the head's creator, Larry Brumfield deduced that my studs were worn and rusted away just enough to allow the new cylinder head to shift ever so slightly around the studs = blown gasket. Even properly tightened nuts could not stop this tendency for the head to imperceptibly move around slightly on the under-sized studs. I changed studs and kept up on the torquing procedure until the gasket had seated itself. The new head gasket held for decades. Duh on me for not heeding the installation instructions!
Since then, any time I have installed a new head on a rebuilt engine, new studs were installed, as well as nuts. No blown head gaskets since the early 1990's, even on my 8:1 Super Brumfield head (milled from 7:1). "Secrets of Speed" published an article I wrote about my experience with used studs. I hope it encouraged other Model A owners with higher compression heads (anything above the stock 4.2:1 ratio) to read and follow the manufacturer's installation instructions. Mea culpa.
Your head studs look far worse than mine did, Andy. They are undersized from wear and are rust pitted. They are now narrower on the shanks than the threaded portions, a condition called "Mae West" because it resembles her hourglass figure. You may be also right about your head gasket not sealing properly, but I fear you will experience more blown head gaskets no matter what gasket you use until you change those head studs AND nuts.
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 05-20-2022 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 05-20-2022, 09:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Hmm, so I went out and looked thru a pile of original heads.
Some have the water port, others do not, Model "A", "B" and others.

Also to back up what Marshall has mentioned, some studs that have been installed over the years have not been up to snuff, strength-wise. I have removed some that were as soft as Gr2 all-thread.

John
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Old 05-20-2022, 10:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Picture two shows a grease nipple in the intake manifold ?? can you enlighten us as two its purpose???
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Old 05-21-2022, 01:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

@ Marshall, I asked my parts salesman about the studs. Actually I wanted to change the bolts myself. But he advised me against it. The statement was that there was a great danger that these would tear off, which would cause even greater problems. I didn't want this. That's how opinions differ. But now I can use the time to remove the bolts. A good half was so loose that I already had it outside.

What is also a problem with the head gaskets, they are all made to oversize! As a result, they are even narrower than necessary between the cylinders, which further promotes burn-through. A matching seal would be nice!

Do washers actually belong under the cylinder head nuts? My instinct tells me I'd like to see some there.

@quickchange The grease nipple is to make the mixture richer. If the engine knocks because it's running too lean, I put the grease gun on it and everything's fine again...

No, joking aside. My Ford has an electric wiper and no longer needs the vacuum connection. To close the opening, I simply screwed in a sealed grease nipple because the thread just fitted.

Greetings Andy
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Old 05-21-2022, 06:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

I second Marshall’s observation, only to add that the new studs are set in clean holes with a dab of antisieze or silicone on the threads…for no other reason than easy removal for quick deck cleaning.
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Old 05-21-2022, 08:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

So, I actually got all the stud bolts out without any damage. As for the new bolts... do you use the normal ones, or do you use high-strength bolts? It is a stock engine with stock compression.
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Old 05-21-2022, 08:29 AM   #12
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

The studs are more easily removed with the head off. Use heat on them if necessary but do replace them. Use no washers under the nuts. The electro-lock cable on the #8 stud it the only one with a clamp. Use a little oil or grease only on the bottom of the nuts to aid in re-torque operations. Make sure the nuts don't bottom out on the stud. Only use grade 8 hardened washers if they have to be used for milled heads or aluminum aftermarket heads.

I use the Best brand copper head gasket with copper coat. The silicon gaskets have been problematic for many that have used them. The Best carbon fiber gaskets are used by some for high compression head applications.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-23-2022 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 05-21-2022, 09:32 AM   #13
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

When replacing the cylinder head and/or head gasket, follow these Larry Brumfield instructions as posted by Vince Falter on his website:
https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bru...structions.htm

Andy -
If you have a few extra Euro in your pants pockets, order a Snyder's cylinder head so that you will have a fighting chance against the crazy German traffic. I took my 1928 Roadster to Germany in 1974 and it was always a challenge to keep up with traffic using the original 4.2:1 cylinder head. How I wish the Brumfield and Snyder heads had been available then! You will not believe the difference one of these heads will make in acceleration and power when you need it. I recommend the 6:1 head. It will not hurt your bearing babbitt if it is in good condition to begin with. I have installed dozens of these heads over the years and every owner has raved about the difference. You are at the stage now where it would pay to wait for a cylinder head and gasket shipment. You have five good driving months ahead of you.
And yes, order the expensive studs and nuts to be extra safe, even if you stick with the stock head. Who knows what tensile strength the cheaper ones have these days of the lowest bidder getting the job of making them? A little extra money spent now will save you bigger expenses down the line in replacing blown head gaskets. How much is peace of mind worth to you?
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 05-21-2022 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 05-21-2022, 10:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

The pictures show several head studs are missing,no wonder it leaked. As Marshall V. Daut said, replace them all.
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Old 05-21-2022, 01:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Listen to Marshall ! if you have money or take out a loan !
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Old 05-21-2022, 01:58 PM   #16
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m.
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Old 05-23-2022, 01:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG-ler View Post
As you can see, the block has no water channel in the area of ​​the marking... The head gasket also has no water channel in this area... However, the head has a water channel at these points!
The double-lobed cavity on the cylinder head that you've indicated in your photos is not a water channel. It's a cavity that helps remove the sand core when the head is cast. All original A and B heads, as well as many after-market heads, have them.

Sometimes the area between this cavity and the outside of the block erodes away over time, leading to a failure of the gasket to seal in that location. A slight depression is often seen in the block at this location as well. I can see in your photos that the edge of the cavity is eroded.

You can use a product like JB Weld ExtremeHeat (basically a metallic putty) to build up the block and the edges of the cavity on the head to their original flatness. Replacing the studs will help you get consistent clamp load on that nut, which will also help with the sealing. Using a copper gasket will also help compensate for any imperfections. The silicone gasket works best on freshly milled surfaces.
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Old 05-23-2022, 08:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
The double-lobed cavity on the cylinder head that you've indicated in your photos is not a water channel. It's a cavity that helps remove the sand core when the head is cast. All original A and B heads, as well as many after-market heads, have them.

Sometimes the area between this cavity and the outside of the block erodes away over time, leading to a failure of the gasket to seal in that location. A slight depression is often seen in the block at this location as well. I can see in your photos that the edge of the cavity is eroded.

You can use a product like JB Weld ExtremeHeat (basically a metallic putty) to build up the block and the edges of the cavity on the head to their original flatness. Replacing the studs will help you get consistent clamp load on that nut, which will also help with the sealing. Using a copper gasket will also help compensate for any imperfections. The silicone gasket works best on freshly milled surfaces.
Yes all that still doesn't account for the gasket being made incorrectly, where the silicon sealant goes over the void in the head instead of around it where it may do some good.
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Quote:
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Yes all that still doesn't account for the gasket being made incorrectly, where the silicon sealant goes over the void in the head instead of around it where it may do some good.
I'm no fan of this design, but the silicone bead is not supposed to make the difference between the coolant drip-drip-dripping out in real time or perfect operation. The leak in the OP's video is severe it's not *just* the gasket that's the problem.
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: Head gasket modern style has wrong silicone insert!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I'm no fan of this design, but the silicone bead is not supposed to make the difference between the coolant drip-drip-dripping out in real time or perfect operation.
Maybe, but it would help if it was designed correctly. At least place the silicon where it may do some good.
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