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Old 09-04-2021, 06:14 PM   #1
rivcokid
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Default Running cooler - does this make sense?

Hi all - I was talking to some people at cars and coffee this morning with my 35 Fordor. One person indicated that the reason the engines ran hot was that the water did not spend very much time in the radiator. He said his father would put washers in the hose connections to impede the flow, and would also remove every other fan blade on the water pumps to slow things down. He contended that it worked and the engine ran somewhat cooler.

Does that make sense to those of you with vastly more experience with these things? I'm not having an issue right now and won't be undertaking this at the moment, but it made at least momentary sense to me.

Thanks for your input!
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Old 09-04-2021, 06:16 PM   #2
alanwoodieman
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

cannot wait for the answers to this question!
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Old 09-04-2021, 06:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Seeking the "sweet spot" where water rate of flow and its duration in the radiator are at optimal. Seems to me that head gasket manufacturers have been trying for years to find the 'sweet spot'. I think our friend, George Mitchell, (who posts her as 'G.M') has done extensive experimentation on water flow in our flatheads and this is how he came up with Skip's high flow pumps.........
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Old 09-04-2021, 06:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

This doesn't make sense to me. I have a 36 Fordor and I had my pumps rebuilt by Skip after heating problems. The impellars are changed to push more water quicker. This worked for me. No heating pbms anymore.
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwoodieman View Post
cannot wait for the answers to this question!
Alan, You and I need to pop some corn, sit back and enjoy...
I can't wait until GM weighs in with his DEFINITIVE proof of the ONLY way to get our cars to run cool.

This is gonna be good
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

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This might explain some things. I use the pumps from Bob Drake and it did noticeably lower the running temperature of my engine.
https://youtu.be/TxhexnjdRs8

Others swear by these rebuilt pumps.
http://www.fordcollector.com/water_pumps.htm




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Old 09-04-2021, 07:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

I have used those new manufactured improved impeller water pumps on a 1934 and 1936 Ford V8 21 stud pump in head engines. I can tell you that they decreased the cooling temperature by around 8 deg F . So higher coolant flow equals lower temps. Throw those bloody restricting washers away. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Nicely done rivcokid, This is such good stuff for this medium!

You're not the first to hear the 'washers to slow down the flow' experience. Cutting the vanes in the pump is new to me.

I think I'm safe adding: There are SEVERAL components to a well cooled flathead.
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Old 09-04-2021, 08:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

The "slowing the flow" was a popular Hot Rod idea in earlier days. The head gasket should control the water flow. A washer isn't going to do much either way, look at how much a thermostat blocks. Flow blockage over a very short distance, like the venture in a carb, or dent in a header pipe, really has little effect on flow.

Modifying the water pump is an attempt to stop cavitation at high speeds. Also a common early Hot Rod deal.
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

here we go again the base of this is thermal transfer ie heat travel's hot to cold and the problems begin as different materials move heat at different rates water is used as it does this fairly well and is cheap [cost effective]. so it takes so X time for the water to heat up in the engine it has to travel to the rad and then spend time in there to cool off yes bigger pumps move more water but only if there is no restriction but if it doesn't stay in the block long enough it doesn't heat up and so it doesn't stay in radiator long enough it wont cool down the trick is to get it balanced the job of a thermostat is to balance the flow so you can keep a constant temp be it 160 or 185 deg your choice Something as simple as a 10 deg change in air temp can alter how it all works there's no set rules just guidelines but remember thermostats are a key part and should never just throw away as yes they control the flow they also raise water pump pressure within the block which stops cavitation erosion of head and cylinder walls amongst other things
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

What about the super heating of the coolant caused by the those hot exhaust ports right in the middle of everything. Add to this the many brands of head gaskets with only 1/4 inch diameter water holes in many of the critical areas. Reduced flow between block and head by poorly designed head gaskets can be another BIG factor. Increased water pump flow is a help for sure but a properly designed head gasket can solve the problem easily.
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Interesting.....I'm quite happy with a solution to a problem even if I'm not so sure
what's actually occurring. I like gutted Chevy thermostats and involute impellers.
Seems like slowing the coolant down some might be a good idea and if fancy schmancy
impellers are good enough for GM they're good enough for me.
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Last edited by Charlie ny; 09-04-2021 at 09:51 PM. Reason: added word good
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Don't forget our West Coast rebuilder in Ca. Advertises in V8 Times. Fryer's pumps. Newc
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newc View Post
Don't forget our West Coast rebuilder in Ca. Advertises in V8 Times. Fryer's pumps. Newc

If I'm not mistaken he took over the rebuilding business from his father who (again I could be mistaken) was an advocate of the washer to slow the water down. This was told to me by the owner of a '32 Ford who had an RV dealership in Riverside which is just down the freeway from Redlands where Fryer's is located.


I'm sure the slowing the water down debate is just like which oil or which spark plugs to use. A gazillion of different opinions. Some based in fact and some not.
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Old 09-05-2021, 12:37 AM   #15
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

If you slow the flow down of the coolant as it passes through the radiator, you are likewise slowing down the flow of coolant through the engine, which means it is going to pick up more heat, consequently will be at a higher temp as it enters the top of the radiator. catch 22.
The earliest engines [including model T's], relied on the fact that hot water rises, therefore a natural tendency of coolant in an engine cooling system is for the coolant, as it picks up heat from the engine, to rise which automatically draws in cooler water from bottom of radiator. [thermo-syphon]. This is why the top of the radiator is at the highest point in the system, certainly quite a bit higher than top of cyl head.
With model A's and the first V8's, it was discovered that fitting a water pump at front and top of cylinder head[s], this natural effect could be helped somewhat by creating a positive flow , thereby improving the cooling effect of the radiator. As the owner of a 1935 Ford, with head mounted pumps, I know only too well of a major drawback in that system; at high engine speeds, the pumps actually push the coolant so fast, that some of the coolant goes outta the overflow, this lowers the level of coolant, the longer it goes on, the more coolant is lost, the hotter the engine runs....
If one fits the original, hose mounted thermostats into one of these early 221's, one of the side effects of this is that the stats, by reason of their smaller openings, will slow down this flow somewhat, thereby reducing the coolant lose outta the overflow. Fitting restrictive washers in the top hoses would have the same effect.
Starting 1937, Ford relocated the pumps into the block, where they now draw cooler coolant from bottom of radiator to circulate throughout the engine. This is a further improvement, as now, at high engine speeds, there is less tendency for the coolant to be pumped straight outta the overflow.
Such was the improvement, that, using 1939 Deluxe as an example, the top of the radiator is considerably lower in relation to the engine, also, the cooling fan is running at engine RPM's, being mounted directly on crankshaft pulley.
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Last edited by Brian; 09-05-2021 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 09-05-2021, 06:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Don't washers create cavitation and air bubbles which create more heat?

Read all of the "coolant related" posts listed here for even more opinions.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/searc...rchid=24620825

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Old 09-05-2021, 07:04 AM   #17
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

All I know is that when I switched from 160 stats in my 8BA to 180s it ran cooler. Never over 190. Are 21 stud engines that different...I am ignorant...but I believe that finding the stst that works for you ... well, it just works. No washers needed. .02 cents
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Old 09-05-2021, 07:14 AM   #18
alanwoodieman
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Kube, this has been interesting! You bring the pop corn , I will bring the soda's
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Old 09-05-2021, 07:25 AM   #19
rivcokid
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

Wow! I didn't know I was opening up such a discussion. Thanks all for your comments. It's been quite interesting, and I'm sure it will continue!
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Old 09-05-2021, 08:29 AM   #20
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Default Re: Running cooler - does this make sense?

I believe the washers, and every other vane removal on water pump impellers, started with the dirt track roundy round stock car racers who were running these flathead engines wide open throttle during most of the race. This helped reduce coolant loss which lead to over heating.
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