Electronic Ignition Opinions Needed

[Bill Goddard]

My garage is too cold to work in so I have too much time to look at cataloques and manuals. I have become very interested in the Redmund Ignitions/FS Ignitions as described in the 2nd vol of Les Andrews' book.
Would there be any strong feelings out there about this product. I like it because it is invisible inside the current distributer and is easy to convert. Thanks Bill G

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

My garage is too cold to work in so I have too much time to look at cataloques and manuals. I have become very interested in the Redmund Ignitions/FS Ignitions as described in the 2nd vol of Les Andrews' book.
Would there be any strong feelings out there about this product. I like it because it is invisible inside the current distributer and is easy to convert. Thanks Bill G

I have such setup/equipment. I like for same reasons you like it.
Ten years now and not one problem...i.e.- reliable Did the 'conversion' myself in like an hour or less. No strong feelings tho.

[C4engr]

I have an FS Ignition set-up in mine. I love it to the MAX...
Never a problem...

Rog

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

As a dealer for FS ignitions, I can tell you that it is a quality product, ...now, however I have seen quite a few failures over the years and I have warrantied many more than I can count. In other words, when they worked, folks were happy but when they failed, folks were stressed and unhappy!!

For several years we actually installed them in almost every car that went out of the shop. The reason I stopped is in my view, the reward was not worth the chance. By this I am suggesting the power advantage used to be there when no one was manufacturing good quality distributor cams or points. The benefit when those were not available definitely put an advantage towards the electronics however now it is different. Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure, or the expense of the unit vs. the good quality points, cam, and condenser, ...or the time necessary to make repairs/changeout after a failure is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO.

[tbirdtbird]

The Dallas club has a bunch of them, never problems and they (and I) love it. It actually smooths the motor out as well (I know some on here have doubted this when I said this before, so I have invited doubters to visit my shop gratis and check things out, take a drive in my A.) I will never go back

I believe this is because the electronics hit the spark at the exact same place for each and every cylinder at just the right time every time; something the tightest dizzy bearings and best made cam/lobes cannot do.

Find someone who has it in your club and try it out yourself before buying, this is always a good idea with a 'new' product.

BTW I am not affiliated with FSI in any way.

[MAG]

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"the good quality points, cam, and condenser, ...or the time necessary to make repairs/changeout after a failure is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO.'
Yep! Mine failed on 3 rd day of Great Race Rally. That was enough for me. Of course there will be those that say it wasn't installed properly or wasn't grounded correctly or wrong coil, etc. Nope! None of the above. Fortunately the original ignition system was in the spares.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If it ain't broke, fix it til it is.

I like my original points and rebuilt distributor.

[Purdy Swoft]

I have no experience with electronic in any of our model As. I have no doubt that they are good untill some little something goes wrong. The thing is when it fails replacement of the module or whole unit is the only fix. Most admit that they haul an extra unit plus a timed model A distributor in case of failure. A lot of people that use them just don't really trust them. Like the so called modern points, I think that peer pressure is the reason that some are compelled to use them. I prefer a setup that I have experience with and can fix myself no matter what goes wrong.

With good original points,condenser and a new Stipe dist. cam the model A distributor works good for me. With fine tuned increased air gaps at the rotor tip and an epoxy filled Flame thrower coil my spark is plenty hot. Mine cranks quick and my spark plugs run clean.

[Russ/40]

I worked with Remund when he was still in business. I was doing the V8 versions of his unit. Initially there was a lot of failures, until Pertronix made some changes to the modules to make them less vulnerable to voltage spikes which are prevalent in generator power systems. The "A" versions became very successful and reliable. I agree with the cautions above though that were well said, that when they fail your stuck. They are too expensive to carry spare electronics units, so most savvy folks carry a spare points unit just in case. I have been running a unit in my '40 since the prototype days and never had a problem. Knock on wood!

[Logan]

I've got four of their distributors, and have installed probably 6 or 7 of them in other cars. Yes they work great. Use a timing light to set your timing, and wire it specifically to their wiring diagram. A "malfunction" happens every now and then, and I've never heard of fs not standing behind their product. They always will help in any way that they can, and are great people to just sit down and talk to on the phone. I carry an extra coil and module with Me, and on extended trips even an extra fs distributor package just incase. We've only had one fail over the years, and that was due to operator error.

I carry spares not because I don't trust my fs unit, it's because if there's anything mechanical no matter how perfectly it was put together, it is subject to failure. The spare modules are $60 I believe, or atleast they were a couple years ago. You couldn't convince me to return to points and condenser. We drove the fordoor to canada in back, 3000 miles in a week, and it never missed a beat.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Something to remember, there is NOTHING that a FS unit can do that can't be accomplished with a good set of points and cam. So often we get caught up with false emotions believing something is better just because it seems believable.

[jerry shook]

I have fs units in two cars, they have been in over 5 years never had a problem i would never go back to points. My cars crank and perform better with fs.

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Something to remember, there is NOTHING that a FS unit can do that can't be accomplished with a good set of points and cam. So often we get caught up with false emotions believing something is better just because it seems believable.

Brent, I had the Per-Lux account when the Petronix was introduced and was party to extensive testing that indicated the unit provided a hotter spark that resulted in better performance and, in some cases, better economy. Before electronic ignitions became original equipment, Petronix systems were installed on all gas Ryder rental trucks as well as UPS intown vans. Mickey Remund was the guy that perfected the Petronix for Model A's as well as early flathead V-8's. Mickey was also the guy that built many of the record setting engines used by Mickey Thompson.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Brent, I had the Per-Lux account when the Petronix was introduced and was party to extensive testing that indicated the unit provided a hotter spark that resulted in better performance and, in some cases, better economy. Before electronic ignitions became original equipment, Petronix systems were installed on all gas Ryder rental trucks as well as UPS intown vans. Mickey Remund was the guy that perfected the Petronix for Model A's as well as early flathead V-8's. Mickey was also the guy that built many of the record setting engines used by Mickey Thompson.

I'm not sure if you mean Ryder or U-Haul, as Ryder typically traded their fleet in whereas U-Haul was a restoration company that "restored" their fleet. Back in the late 80s & early 90s when I was a Service Mgr for a U-Haul shop and we did retrofit to Pertronix units to trucks in their fleet that was 20-25 years old.

Now with that said, the Pertronix unit is only a triggering system, ....therefore it cannot produce a hotter spark. The coil does that. The only thing that the Pertronix can do over a worn set of points and/or worn lobes on a cam is dwell or saturation time. Bill Stipe's new distributor cams have equalled the playing field between the two.

[V4F]

I love my FS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike V. Florida]

One of the guys in the club had a "zipper" in his car. Never could get it to run right, went back to original.

Like Brent said some swear by them some swear at them. I remember reading that you cannot use an original popout switch with the unit.

[tbirdtbird]

that is true

[Charlville]

Got one on mine, very pleased with the performance. However be careful when shorting out plug wires or leaving the ignition switched on when the engine isn't running as the modules can burn out. FS Ignitions are a really great vendor, very helpful and they stand by their product. Pertronix here in the UK (Camberley) are also very helpful.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

So Bill, you have heard from some of the happy FS owners, ...and we all know there are many "points users" here that successfully use points year after year yet see no reason to voice their opinion, --so have YOU made a decision??

[jerry shook]

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Actually, it is deeper than that. The first thing is Model-A engines today do not need to meet an emission standard like modern cars do. Second, compression ratios are higher in modern iron requiring a different type of coil than what most Model-A's use. Even with Nu-Rex timing indicators available, and Zipper distributors, I'd venture a safe bet that over 90% of all Model-A engines on the road do not have the correct (optimum) timing for the speed and RPM they are driving. The same can be said for fuel mixtures. Therefore having an electronic timing that is the same degrees away from optimum as a points triggered system boils down to the same. Since the Pertronix only triggers the spark (does not create a hotter spark), then the fuel combustion is the same with both units.

And, if we are to advocate the use of 21st Century technology on our restored Model-A, then how is it we are not advocating that each restored car have a padded dash installed, air bags in 4 separate areas, better bumpers, and many of the other government mandated items?

Society has "dumbed down" where people cannot install/adjust points now, --and folks were unwilling to provide proper maintenance so 'Detroit' had to figure out a way to do it for them. Our beloved Model-A has so many items that are supposed to be maintenanced on a regular interval so that adjusting a set of ign. points should be a regularly scheduled item no different than changing oil or adjusting brakes. Now please understand I am NOT saying that electronic ignition in a Model-A is a bad thing. All I am offering is the facts so that people can make good decisions for their own needs. My opinion (--based on quite a bit of experience with both sides) is that the typical Model-A engine does not perform better (i.e.: make more horsepower) with just the installation of an electronic ignition system. For those who do not agree with me, then state exactly 'why' it does and substantiate their beliefs.

[Kurt in NJ]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Points went away mostly in the beginning of emission controls because the emissions system was required to work properly and with a garrantee ---mostly without maintence, then the controlls became so complicated that the only way was with electronics

most modern cars have great reliability, and they go very long time between servicing, but when they stop they need towed to the shop, usually there isn't much that can be done along the road.

The stock model A has another kind of reliability, --most times it can be fixed along side of the road, when you try to add modern reliability you trade off some of that original reliability


Proper restoration with parts meeting original tolerances will eliminate most of the problems that create the "need" for modifications

Since I rebuilt my dist with NOS shaft and cam 35 years ago I havn't done anything but change the condenser 25 years ago, about every 1-2 years I surface and adjust the points ---those are still the ones that came with the car.

There are some owners that haveig electronic ignition is good, it can be an advantage for someone that can't do anything to a car if it stops and always have it towed to a shop wien it won't run.

For me an original properly restored system gives the best reliability.

I have run my car for emissions, it has passed the test we used to have meeting the requirements for a mid 80s car

[Bill Goddard]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

So Bill, you have heard from some of the happy FS owners, ...and we all know there are many "points users" here that successfully use points year after year yet see no reason to voice their opinion, --so have YOU made a decision??

I have read the evidence presented and have reached a verdict.
It is---------------------------I will stick with my modern points setup.
-I know how to maintain it
-spare parts are cheaper
-I have a new Stipe dist cam and new camshaft
-a new 5.5:1 head
I'm ready to go.
Thanks all for the great responses. Bill G

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

I agree. All I know is that my mileage increased by 4-6 mpg depending on driving conditions.
If the Kettering style was better, you can bet that the manufacturers would still be using it. Just my opinion, based on my experience.
My vote is for the FS system.
Chet

[jerry shook]

Thank"s brent & kurt. You are a lot smarter then i will ever be, i am an old country boy without a high school education. I have owned and been working on a"s for many years installed original point"s the modern point"s set up and new dist.( so i just know what i know ). Nothing has ever worked better on my a"s then electronic. Over 5 years no problems. God bless

[mrraford]

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I was wondering when somebody was going to get around to that point Jerry.
Many of us still use the original type equipment just because it is original type. We use the original setup rather than converting to a modern type replacement because it wouldn't be an original type Model A without it.

I realize that some things like cast iron brakes and fuse blocks are not original type equipment but the safety issues overrule the original thought on that one. I like to stop when I desire and I really don't care for fires under the hood.

I was looking at catalogs the other day and saw that a vendor is selling modern type distributor caps with modern plug wires. Those would probably make my A more reliable but would it still be a Model A? What about replacing the wheels and tires with more modern radial setups? How about power brakes, air conditioning, 12 volt conversion, 50 caliber machine gun mount? Would it still be a Model A to some of us or would it just be a reworked Shay prototype?

Hey it's your car! Do what you want to it but don't expect everybody to follow suit. For me, I am fond of seeing the old lady work the way Henry built it.

[larrys40]

Bill,
Sounds like your mind is made up... Everyone has their preferences..... FS Cheaper.. I would definitely say NOT! I do concur with Brent and Purdy that the original point/condenser ignition, properly set, timed, well rebuild/assembled distributor is the best... and if there should be a roadside failure... it can be troubleshooted and rectified quickly and easily...

I think that much of the problem today.. is that many are not comfortable and schooled at really setting the distributor point gap/alignment, and timing correctly. I understand that many (especially newer A owners) are not as confident.. but then it is about education... which is a good thing... than it is about the ability of the original system to perform as it was intended.
Just my 2-cents worth... and I will always keep my points! And be happy to help anyone on the side of the road with point iginition.... electronic....... well...... hopefully they have another distributor ready to go!
Larry

[marc hildebrant]

I do not see the reason for changing the igniton system from original.

If the reason is to have a more modern setup, then sell your Model A. The "improvement" to the igniton system can be continued to all parts of the car!

Marc

[jm29henry]

great topic my opinion is this if its been good enough for 80 years LEAVE IT ALONE!!! If you have a break down on the road what do you do ? if you have a problem with your points or condenser you can fix this very easy on the road. We had a member that left his ignition on for a couple of minutes .It caused the electronic ignition to short out .Luckily enough won of the other cars in the group had a regular distributor in his trunk we installed it and timed it and he was back on the road again plus the cost is over $100.00 dollars its not worth it to me.( BUT HE DID PUT A NEW ELECTRONIC IGNITION BACK ON ).Go figure all people are entitled to there own opinion.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Let's turn that around a little. If the electronic distributor module is so great why don't they still use them? Both of my modern cars are now 11 years old and don't use them. The only car I ever had with that system from the factory had a module failure. Fortunately the car was at home when it occurred so I was able to diagnose it pretty quickly and pick up a replacement. As Kurt noted, the vast majority of modern car failures result in a tow to a shop.

Nobody that has spoken against the need for an electronic ignition in a Model A has suggested that it hasn't provided a significant improvement for some folks. All we are saying is that some of us can, and have accomplished the same result with the original ignition system.

[jerry shook]

Marco. It seam"s that a lot of people share the same felling"s as you do. And a lot of folks like the electronic, i guess that"s what makes the world go around. As for me i will stick with what get"s the best result"s for me.

[tbirdtbird]

Wow.
First no one said that there was a need to change to electronic. It, like many other things, is an option.
The earlier electronic modules on modern cars like the Ford Duraspark and the GM HEI system were total junk and prone to failure from day one. They are vastly different from today's electronics. (Pertronix uses the Hall effect). I had each of these systems on antique vehicles I had, they failed constantly, and I ripped them out and installed traditional kettering points distributers.
Even many A drivers using stock dizzy and points carry a spare dizzy, since anything can go wrong with anything at any time. I always did, and I still do.
And now according to some, if anyone has even one thing on the car that is not stock, such as perhaps TT10 plugs instead of 3X plugs, they are told to 'sell the car'
As with other modification questions here, I think it may be productive to find someone in your club who actually has the mod you are considering and ride with them so that you can see for yourself.
Many of the posts on the original question have not been that helpful and factual, but instead preaching from a soapbox.
Don't change that dial, viewers, 'cause there is more beating of a dead horse to follow!!!!

[AL in NY]

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 14
"Now with that said, the Pertronix unit is only a triggering system, ....therefore it cannot produce a hotter spark the coil does that."

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 4
"Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure,.........is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO."

Brent, I have to take issue with both of your above staements. First, when the Pertronix module is used in place of points, it will produce a hotter spark because the dwell time is much longer allowing the coil to build up more energy to produce a hotter spark when the points open. This is the purpose of dual points, they keep the points closed as long as possible. Second, the newer Pertronix modules have been modified so they don't fail if the ignition switch is left on. I know is for a fact because I tested it myself.

The Pertronix electronic points module is extremely reliable when installed correctly (as per their instructions) and they eliminate the rubbing block wear seen on standard points. Your timing doesn't change over time and the hotter spark makes cold weather starting easier.

[MikeK]

Electronics, like mechanical systems, are only as reliable as the level of design to which they are built. Modern electronic ignitions are extremely reliable. The 6V Pertronix module, not so much. I see three, possibly four shortcomings with the Pertronix design that reduce it's reliability level:

1) The Hall effect switch remains ON driving the switching transistor to an on state if the vehicle is stopped, key switch on, with the sensor aligned with the trigger ring. This overheats the coil and drains the battery. A better design: Simple circuitry that would time out the drive to the switching transistor if the gate signal exceeds one second. It would turn itself off when the engine is not rotating. 50 cents in extra parts to do this.

2) The module itself can overheat and burn out, either in condition 1 above, or if used with coils less than three ohms (a two amp drive). The tiniest, cheapest, two amp max drive transistor was used to make it cheap to manufacture. The accompanying inefficiency of this drive transistor contributes to the heat that may cause self-destruction. A better design: Use an efficient (cooler running) higher amperage MOSFET driver, at least 10 amp rated, and use a finned heat sink base. Add another 50c to the cost. Now you could actually use a 1 ohm coil that produces a much hotter spark, and the thing would not get too hot. The old Duraspark and HEI modules were designed to drive at least 5 amps, not two!

3) Failure from voltage transients and noise. I haven't x-rayed, disassembled, or examined their simple circuitry, but increasing this to a "Bullet Proof" level with avalanche diodes, caps and two small MOV's would all add maybe another dollar.

4) Active dwell- Not in the standard Pertronix modules! Your coil is always driven past full saturation waiting for the 'trigger'. This make the coil run at full heat load all the time. Better: Simple, cheap circuitry to add this feature and extend the reliability of the coil beyond what you get with points. The RED 12V pertronix modules have this, all the 6V and the black 12V do not.

Obviously 1,2 & 3 above are dependent on the vigilance of the driver and the condition of the vehicle electrical system. Since nobody's perfect (yes, I've left the key on once or twice) and many A's are full of electrical shortcomings and glitches not everyone's experience with the Pertronix modules are the same.

For an electronics module to definitively surpass both the reliability and performance of a Kettering ignition system ALL FOUR of the above points would need to be addressed. "Modern" car ignition systems do this, Pertronix does not. Reliability relates directly to level of design build.

[Pete]

As Brent has noted, most model A "electronic" ignitions are just triggers.
While there will be some very slight improvment in quantity of spark produced due to the shorter field collapse time, you are not going to get a seat of the pants increase in power using the same original coil.
To realize the full advantage of an electronic trigger, the rest of the system needs to be added and that is the computer driven coil. These systems have feedback built in to sense each time it produces a spark. If a certain cylinder happens to lean out for some reason, the computer will adjust the spark to compensate for the next time that cylinder fires. If the problem goes away, the spark goes back to normal.
The advance/retard is done automatically as needed/programmed. Auto retard can be set also for blower applications.

MikeK is spot on about the shortcomings of the Pertronix unit. Too many modern designers will design a part with a certain percentage of failures in mind, rather than ZERO failures.
They can't get it through their heads that PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR QUALITY.

On the other side of the coin, points triggers can be made very reliable with ball bearing shafts and modified cam design. Some, such as the RotoFaze standard model distributor, use OEM Ford points available at almost any parts store in the country and are capable of racing performance at 10000 rpm. Another advantage of a mechanical system is you don't have to
be computer savvy to adjust the auto advance weights.
For street use, almost any system you choose is going to have some mechanical components involved such as distributor shaft bearings and drive gears. EVERYTHING must be within tolerance to work properly.

[RobertB]

Related question...I've added an MSD module (capacitive discharge) on each of the British cars I have owned and had very satisfying experiences.

On the MGB, I invested in a Pertronix distrubutor that never worked and was not backed by the supplier. I installed a "new" standard distributor and that helped, but nothing like the change when I added the MSD.

Has anone done this to their Model A? The MSD kits come for 4, 6, and 8 cylinders...wouldn't the 4 cylinder work on the A engine? A new coil installed with it is a given.

RBH
New to my 31 A, but old to cars of many types.

[denis4x4]

Just to muddy the waters, the original Ignitor electronic ignition system (Petronix) was designed to operate 24/7 on pump engines, refrigeration, compressors, etc. I used them on at least a dozen cars and two boats over the past 30 years. One failure was self inflicted.

While I appreciate the people here that want to keep their cars absolutely the way Henry made them, I appreciate Henry's efforts to think outside the box and look for new and better ways to build a car and improve it's performance. I suspect that Edsel would have had an FS ignition on his speedster!

[Vicky]

I use FSI Distributers in my Model As and I am very satisfied with their performance and reliability. I understand that the coil delivers the spark to the plugs, so like has been stated, so the solid state doesn't really provide any improvement in that regard. The main difference for me is the centrifugal advance. Many owners with stock Model A Distributors I know retard the spark to start the engine, then once started, advance the spark to a specific position, then leave it there regardless of the speed (RPM) they are running. The FSI Distributor advances based on engine RPM. I realize I could use a Model B, Mallory or other more modern distributor to achieve the centrifugal advance but this works best for me.

You many disagree, but I am fine with FSI.

[31Tudor]

The only time I have never gotten home on my own power, or a fix on the road was a failure of the electronic ignition. It was a roll back that day. One failure and I will never go back, points for me.

[Richard Wilson]

If you buy one electronic ignition system go ahead and buy a second to have as a spare and carry it with you. There is NO roadside repair or adjustment on these units and no way that I know of to bypass them. My opinion is from my personal experience when a fellow club member had one burn out 200 miles from home. The unit only had about 500 miles when it failed. It ran great right up to the point that it shut down without warning. We were back in the mountains about 50 miles from the nearest town. Luckily one of the guys on the tour had packed an extra distributor with points that we could install.

[jerry shook]

I have drove my a on long trips several hundred miles a trip and so for never had a break down, thank the lord. After listing to all the people that have it is scary. I have been told it is easier to change out the fs then the points and adj them. I have installed and adjusted a lot of points, but never changed the fs in my car after installing it. So i can"t say which is easier. I will carry a spare and hope i never need it.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by RobertB

Related question...I've added an MSD module (capacitive discharge) on each of the British cars I have owned and had very satisfying experiences.

On the MGB, I invested in a Pertronix distrubutor that never worked and was not backed by the supplier. I installed a "new" standard distributor and that helped, but nothing like the change when I added the MSD.

Has anone done this to their Model A? The MSD kits come for 4, 6, and 8 cylinders...wouldn't the 4 cylinder work on the A engine? A new coil installed with it is a given.

RBH
New to my 31 A, but old to cars of many types.

Robert,
Yes I have an MSD on my Model A and a Petronix as the trigger for it. I wired it in such a way that if the MSD failed I can simply switch a couple connectors around and the Petronix will drive the coil directly. If the Petronix fails I can simply install some points and away I go. In the future I plan on building an A distributor with MSD's reluctor & pick-up and replace the old MSD6A with a programmable MSD6AL. This will allow me to program (and tune) a timing curve. Whiled I'd agree this is overkill for a Model A I used the MSD simply because I had 2 of them sitting on the shelf collecting dust, with no car to use them on. I will say this: It starts super fast and doesn't miss a lick.

Tom

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 14
"Now with that said, the Pertronix unit is only a triggering system, ....therefore it cannot produce a hotter spark the coil does that."

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 4
"Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure,.........is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO."

Brent, I have to take issue with both of your above staements. First, when the Pertronix module is used in place of points, it will produce a hotter spark because the dwell time is much longer allowing the coil to build up more energy to produce a hotter spark when the points open. This is the purpose of dual points, they keep the points closed as long as possible. Second, the newer Pertronix modules have been modified so they don't fail if the ignition switch is left on. I know is for a fact because I tested it myself.

The Pertronix electronic points module is extremely reliable when installed correctly (as per their instructions) and they eliminate the rubbing block wear seen on standard points. Your timing doesn't change over time and the hotter spark makes cold weather starting easier.

Again, this is where folks are not paying attention to the details. Bill Stipe's newly designed distributor cam will produce dwell times that will rival the electronic triggered system. The 2nd side of this is coil saturation will only go so far. You can only get so much voltage out of a particular coil. Again, we NEVER discussed changing coils to a "hotter coil". Only to change the triggering system.

I can tell you from experience that a Pertronix system will NOT start easily if the battery is weak.



I also think it is grossly unfair to make statements having folks believe that a Pertronix system can deliver 5 mpg more than a stock points system. That is like a 20%-25% increase in economy which I doubt could be seen even if someone had a worn-out distributor cam and a burned set of points.

I will also say that many, MANY folks have driven thousands of miles without a single misfire also using points. There is also many who can testify as to their failures. Again, the biggest reason why there was an advantage nearly a decade ago with the Pertronix was a top-quality distributor cam was unavailable and good-quality points were in short supply. This gave an advantage to the electronic triggering system however that has all changed now. If we ever do another Workshop here, this may be one of the very tests we will make on a chassis dyno. I suspect there will be some who are not happy with the results.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MALAK

Robert,
Yes I have an MSD on my Model A and a Petronix as the trigger for it. I wired it in such a way that if the MSD failed I can simply switch a couple connectors around and the Petronix will drive the coil directly. If the Petronix fails I can simply install some points and away I go. In the future I plan on building an A distributor with MSD's reluctor & pick-up and replace the old MSD6A with a programmable MSD6AL. This will allow me to program (and tune) a timing curve. Whiled I'd agree this is overkill for a Model A I used the MSD simply because I had 2 of them sitting on the shelf collecting dust, with no car to use them on. I will say this: It starts super fast and doesn't miss a lick.

Tom

It might be worth noting that Ford used a "Multiple Spark Discharge" set-up WAY (i.e: like 60+ years before!! ) prior to Autotronics ever "inventing" it. Think about it!!

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Keep it going guys !! Good post !!! I am staying out oft for a while as it would take me too much time to respond.

I learned in the auto servie industry problems we " real----imagined ---or alleged
thats what this post has covered for sure.

Brent let me know if you get that workshop planned i would like to attend,,,,,

[Pete]

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There is something that has bothered me for years.
Points are NOT pointed. They have a slightly spherical surface.
Some of the cheap early ones were flat.
Therefore I think they should be called "spheres".
Makes just as much sense as the renaming of most of the scientific terms several years ago.
I am now going to go for a ride on my bihertz.

[AL in NY]

Brent in 10-uh-C: I was unaware of the Bill Stipe distributor cam and after searching Bill's site I can not find it. As for the hotter spark, I made no mention of using a hotter coil, just replacing the stock points with the Pertronix module. The increased dwell time over stock points and cam would produce a hotter spark.

[John LaVoy]

Brent is correct on some failures, we installed one of the Zippers when we were in Texas. At about 3,000 miles it failed. FS replaced the module again at 3,000 miles it failed. At this time we changed modules from Pertronix and have not had another failure since 2008. This is in the sedan and gets several thousand miles a year of use. The failures came when we were actually running the car about 3,000 miles a month so it was quite evident there was some problem with the module they were getting from Pertronix, we spoke to Pertronix at the SEMA show right after the problems and they suggested the other module that we have been using. But, I do carry a spare module just in case. The change out is very quick probable faster than points once you know what you are doing.

[29er]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

Brent in 10-uh-C: I was unaware of the Bill Stipe distributor cam and after searching Bill's site I can not find it.

See Post #16:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...1615&showall=1

Dwelling in Oregun,
Mike

[CarlG]

From Bill's Web Page:

http://www.stipemachine.com/index_files/page0017.htm

Part # SMC0033 . . . . . . Price: $12.75
New cam profile. 10 degrees more dwell allowing longer coil saturation for a stronger spark
Hardened for a long, trouble-free operation life

Prices are subject to change without notice. Please call for current pricing.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here's the scope pattern using original points and slant pole coil in my 1928. This first picture shows the coil primary pattern. The coil primary and conderser form a tuned circuit, where the electricity flows back and forth between the two until the plug gap no longer has enough voltage to fire the gap. The remaining energy still bounces back and forth until it dwindles to a very low straight line, then the points close as shown by the drop on the right side.

The second picture shows the coil secondary with all 4 plug patterns superimposed. Notice the spark isn't just one instantanious spark, but continues for as long as the coil primary can supply enough energy to power the secondary to fire the gap. At that point you will see a rise in the line above what it took to maintain the spark, but it takes more voltage to restart the spark than it took to maintain it.

Anyway the stock system works fine and trouble free for me, and is so easy to fix if something was to go wrong.

Anyone have a scope picture of the electronic trigger system?

[glenn in camino]

I've always liked and used the stock distributor. Works good and fun to work on.

[tbirdtbird]

Tom, such a scope comparison would be nice.
And yes, Pertronix has more than one grade of module

[Ron W]

While Brent is getting re-educated in electronics, I will say that I will have a ED system in my modelA soon because I have had a Pertronics in my antique Plymouth for 16 years and 70,000 miles and no problems! Ron W

[AL in NY]

CarlG: How did you find that page on Bill's site? I have always used this link http://www.specialtymotorcams.com/index.html. Can't seem to find the home page for the link you suggested.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

CarlG: How did you find that page on Bill's site? I have always used this link http://www.specialtymotorcams.com/index.html. Can't seem to find the home page for the link you suggested.

He actually has 2 web sites. The home page for the page I listed above is:
http://www.stipemachine.com/
It's a little tricky navigating. On the menu list on the left side of the page, just point at the very bottom of the box before clicking on it. If you click directly on the name, nothing happens.

BTW, I bought one of these for myself and another for a friend. Both of us are very satisfied with the increased performance.

[hardtimes]

Still on the waiting list for the new/improved 'point' trigger auto advance rebuild unit, from Bubba....as backup for my 10 year old Pertronix ...long lasting unit !

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Here's the scope pattern using original points and slant pole coil in my 1928. This first picture shows the coil primary pattern. The coil primary and conderser form a tuned circuit, where the electricity flows back and forth between the two until the plug gap no longer has enough voltage to fire the gap. The remaining energy still bounces back and forth until it dwindles to a very low straight line, then the points close as shown by the drop on the right side.

The second picture shows the coil secondary with all 4 plug patterns superimposed. Notice the spark isn't just one instantanious spark, but continues for as long as the coil primary can supply enough energy to power the secondary to fire the gap. At that point you will see a rise in the line above what it took to maintain the spark, but it takes more voltage to restart the spark than it took to maintain it.

Anyway the stock system works fine and trouble free for me, and is so easy to fix if something was to go wrong.

Anyone have a scope picture of the electronic trigger system?

Tom,

I do have a collection using the scope and amperage waveforms just need to dig up on my shop laptop...once upon a time we used the scope to analyze everything and every waveform with actual current waveforms of coils etc...

[Charlville]

I think they were called points orginally not because they are/were pointed, more because they are "points" of contact. It's interesting that they are being called "points" on a mostly US based forum as I've always thought that they were mainly referred to as "contact breakers" in the US, which as with most US terms is a more accurate description of what they actually are/do


Regards

Kevin

Reading UK

[barkleydave]

It is correct that the Pertronix Ignitor II is overload protected. I have one in an antique boat and accidently left the ky on for one week! NO damage to the ignition module!

[armchair67]

Interesting post, and good timing (pardon the pun!) since I am considering which way to go myself. I currently have the original style points in my A, which until recently have worked fine-nothing wrong except that it's time to replace them. I did notice that, by design, or perhaps by quality, the points do not seem like they always line up with each other one hundred percent. I have considered "modern" points and also the FS and Pertronix set ups. Not sure which way to go yet. I have had a pertronix in my old Beetle for over ten years and 100,000 miles with zero issues, so that is tempting. While I appreciate things being correct, my concern is more on reliability and driveability. I recently changed to an alternator after the cut out helped to leave me with a dead battery, and yes, its not correct, or as "Henry intended", but the increased reliability and the brighter lights were worth that to me. Besides, if everyone was so concerned with what Henry intended, lets see more people out there using their A's every single day, year round!

[Tom Foster]

I installed a Remund unit (before FSI) because I was tired of adjusting the points on my coupe every time I wanted to take a weekend drive. It's performed flawlessly for me, but it does have some of its own idiosyncrasies that take some experience to get used to. (1) You can't use the original popout switch, (2) it is sensitive to voltage drops so a weak battery might not fire you off. I've not had a Remund or Pertronix module go bad, but when I had a Mallory Unilite in my Red Ram I got tired of burned modules and was ready to try the original dual point distributor, when somebody told me Pertronix makes a module for the Mallory dist. Installed one, it runs great, never looked back.
Fearless

[willobs]

My experience has been the same as 31 Tudor, only tow due to electronic ing!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by Tom Foster

I installed a Remund unit (before FSI) because I was tired of adjusting the points on my coupe every time I wanted to take a weekend drive. It's performed flawlessly for me, but it does have some of its own idiosyncrasies that take some experience to get used to. (1) You can't use the original popout switch, (2) it is sensitive to voltage drops so a weak battery might not fire you off. I've not had a Remund or Pertronix module go bad, but when I had a Mallory Unilite in my Red Ram I got tired of burned modules and was ready to try the original dual point distributor, when somebody told me Pertronix makes a module for the Mallory dist. Installed one, it runs great, never looked back.
Fearless

You can use an original pop out switch. You have to take it apart, and insulate the ground with a piece of plastic and then put it back together I have 25,000 miles on my pop out switch that way.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.

In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed. However, a good point system maintained in good condition by the owner of a Model A Ford would serve his needs well or equal to one using an "electronic" ignition system. The only advantage I see is the latter type needing no adjustment or maintenance for many more miles. Parts availability and cost are also a plus to me using the original ignition system used by Ford.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I have a boring, original points system, but I wanted to use the opportunity to point to the Laine family Web site where he talks about the ZIPPER ignition that is hidden in a bone stock looking distributor.

http://www.lainefamily.com/ModelAFil...ionUpgrade.htm

[George Miller]

Off the subject a little. Back in 62 I had a 1959 Fuel Injected Corvette. It was the high HP with 11-1 compression.
In town driving it was hard to keep the plugs clean. If you spent to many miles at low speed it would start missing at high rpms. So I got this "electronic" ignition for it. It still used the points but had a electronic module and a high out put coil. That solved my problem.

Then one day my wife and I were about a hundred miles from home with out much money. The car quits. Called a garage they checked it out and said they could not fix it until Monday. This was Saturday. With no money for a Motel what do you do. So I took the condenser that was on the + side of the coil for the radio, and put it on the point side. Unhooked the module and drove it home. The points were burned bad because of the high out put coil, but it got us home.

After that I used J18Y plugs that fixed all my problems. No more add on electronics for me. Ya I know they are much better to day.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Similar to George, I installed a transistorized ignition in my 55 Chevy back in 1965. It was only on for 5 days when it quit working on my way to work one morning. I switched it back to stock points and no more problems.

[glenn in camino]

The engine never ran right, I changed back to the stock system and now it runs great.

[barkleydave]

I just installed a Pertronix in my 29. My experience with Pertronix was and still is field testing two billet distributors in a boat. 2nd season and the 30 footer runs fantastic. Boat engines must operate at 75 to 80 percent load. It really tests an electronic ignition system. I am looking forward to continued reliability of the unit in my A

[Charlville]

Mine runs really well on FS/Ignitor, do modern cars use points?

[Kurt in NJ]

Modern cars have a different kind of reliability than the A, they go a long time, but when they break they don't get fixed along side of the road, and usually they don't give any warning, they die and you sit waiting on the tow truck, the stock model A has a different kind of reliability, usually you have warning, it doesn't run quite right for a while, and then if you don't heed the warning it stops---a little fiddling with it and you are on the road again(most likely in much less time than it takes to wait for the tow truck), when you try to combine modern with old there is a good chance you get an old car you have to tow home when it breaks

the modern car I drive doesn't have points, will stay running with a dead battery even if the alternator quits, can be push started even though it's automatic, it's got a computer but doesn't need it to run, and it's not very picky about what it has for fuel--once I accidentally poured 1/2 gal of pure antifreeze in the tank, tried to drain it the next day, it was gone, must have burned it ---I consider my near stock A to be just as reliable

[glenn in camino]

The stock system works just fine. Leave it alone.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

As a dealer for FS ignitions, I can tell you that it is a quality product, ...now, however I have seen quite a few failures over the years and I have warrantied many more than I can count. In other words, when they worked, folks were happy but when they failed, folks were stressed and unhappy!!

For several years we actually installed them in almost every car that went out of the shop. The reason I stopped is in my view, the reward was not worth the chance. By this I am suggesting the power advantage used to be there when no one was manufacturing good quality distributor cams or points. The benefit when those were not available definitely put an advantage towards the electronics however now it is different. Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure, or the expense of the unit vs. the good quality points, cam, and condenser, ...or the time necessary to make repairs/changeout after a failure is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO.

Brent ,
Very good answer !!!

Bubba

[Jordan]

have them in 3 cars and have never had a problem. The only ones I've seen fail have been from user error or incorrect set up. I have 30,000 miles on the one in my car and it's never missed a beat. Personally it's something I never have to worry about failing. And if for some reason it does, I have an extra sitting in the trunk.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Charlville

Mine runs really well on FS/Ignitor, do modern cars use points?

This is following an old post but no, they don't run either. Even my 'older' cars run coil packs for each cylinder controlled by the ECU with no 'igniter'. I think that your 'latest and greatest' technology had about a ten year life span with most manufacturers.

Does this make everyone feel safer?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I put transistorized ignition on my 55 Chevy back in 1965, and it left me dead in the road 5 days later. In the late 70's I put pointless electronic ignition in my 71 Scout and it only lasted a couple weeks. Points work fine for me.

[29spcoupe]

I put a pertronix with the super hot coil on my '41 Packard. The car started much better than with the points system. Just be aware that a 6 volt pertronix has a voltage threshold of 4 1/2 volts. I was loosing voltage through the ignition switch, so I ran a wire directly from the battery to insure 6 volts. If you do this, put a switch between the battery and the coil. John

[31Tudor]

Originally Posted by Jordan

have them in 3 cars and have never had a problem. The only ones I've seen fail have been from user error or incorrect set up. I have 30,000 miles on the one in my car and it's never missed a beat. Personally it's something I never have to worry about failing. And if for some reason it does, I have an extra sitting in the trunk.

Actually that is probably not the case in many applications. Mine was installed properly, and user error did not come into play. Mine worked for 1,000's of miles and then blew and left me on the side of the road. Interesting though, you say you never have to worry about it failing, but you carry an extra in the trunk.

[triumphleroy]

Yes but what OIL is best in the Oil Pan with either ignition?

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by 31Tudor

Actually that is probably not the case in many applications. Mine was installed properly, and user error did not come into play. Mine worked for 1,000's of miles and then blew and left me on the side of the road. Interesting though, you say you never have to worry about it failing, but you carry an extra in the trunk.

When I go on a roadtrip, I carry a spare of everything. I prepare my car so I don't have to work on it on the side of the road. But accidents happen. I also let my sister and other people drive my car frequently whenever I'm not around. So yes, I keep a spare incase user error were to come into play.

[barkleydave]

Well after reviewing all this I wish I had never asked!

Ole Rainmaker Ron did my 12V conversion (notice I did not say upgrade)

Since I have been testing Pertronix Billet Dist.'s in my boat for a field test I have found in a two year period on the water 12 months/24/7 both units have provided reliable performance. (Replaced an OEM Chrysler 80/s ECM system) Pertronix was working on improving corrosion resistance in the marine version of their distributors.

OK...Rainmaker Ron likes FS and while I have not had much time with it my past experience has been positive.

Like or dislike: I have been left on the shoulder using points/ and electronic so it happens!

My old MGA is using org. Lucas point system.. and has been flawless for 15 years! So much for "Prince of Darkness" bashing. LOL

As to cost... I spent 70 bucks the other night with my better half having ONE nice dinner for two! So 60 bucks for a spare ignition system.. sounds ok to me.

Bottom line: Whatever your A likes stick with it and your personal comfort zone.

40 HP not exactly a high performance dragster!

Lets enjoy our A's

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

As a dealer for FS ignitions, I can tell you that it is a quality product, ...now, however I have seen quite a few failures over the years and I have warrantied many more than I can count. In other words, when they worked, folks were happy but when they failed, folks were stressed and unhappy!!

For several years we actually installed them in almost every car that went out of the shop. The reason I stopped is in my view, the reward was not worth the chance. By this I am suggesting the power advantage used to be there when no one was manufacturing good quality distributor cams or points. The benefit when those were not available definitely put an advantage towards the electronics however now it is different. Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure, or the expense of the unit vs. the good quality points, cam, and condenser, ...or the time necessary to make repairs/changeout after a failure is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO.

Ditto !! I share your comments as well.......

[Dick M]

I am fine with the personal choice of either the F/S ignition or the original points and condenser. However, a few years ago, when on a tour with my club, a Model A with F/S failed about 75 miles from home. No one in our club on the tour, including the owner, was familiar with F/S nor had any spare parts for it. I always carry a spare rebuilt stock distributor in my A. It was either spend about $300 for a tow or get the car to run. I had to rewire the disabled A back to stock, put in my rebuilt distributor, and time the car. I prefer the stock distributor because most of our club members run a stock distributor and I understand it. My spare distributor is timed to my car. It takes about 3 minutes to change distributors on the side of the road in the event of a distributor malfunction. JMO

[glenn in camino]

I had bad luck with electronic ignition, and went back to the stock distributor. Car runs better than ever. It's a heavily modified B engine in a deluxe delivery. Runs great.

[Jacksonlll]

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Don't Kluge-up your A. If it is "different" when you have a problem on tour, there might not be anyone who can help you. Keep it original and get out of the way when you open the hood.

[DadOfTwo]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

Don't Kluge-up your A. If it is "different" when you have a problem on tour, there might not be anyone who can help you. Keep it original and get out of the way when you open the hood.

I'm weighing this topic as well, for my own car. And while I understand your sentiment, I would like to share a different perspective.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your 'get out of the way' comment, but instead I would recommend being / becoming the expert on your car.

Example: I went to breakfast last Saturday to check out a local club. A bunch of really great folks with really great cars. Unfortunately, one car didn't make it to the meet, and was left at a gas station. After breakfast a rescue party went out. About 8 friendly, well-meaning guys. Nothing against them, but only two were mechanically inclined and knowledgeable.

And those two were both fiddling with different things, to the point that we don't know what actually got the car running again. The owner was able to drive home, but it still wasn't running right, and nothing was learned to guide future troubleshooting.

And maybe it's just my personality. I don't mind a little help now and then, but I want to be the one working on my car.

If I put in an electronic ignition, then I will do it myself and know how it works, and how to troubleshoot it.

If I stick with all original ignition parts, I'm going to be the one who knows how it works and how to troubleshoot it.

Either way, I plan to carry spares and appropriate tools.

After all, if a group of us go out on a run and 'that guy' can't make it, then what?

My feeling is that the A is kind of a fiddly car, and the driver should strive to be capable of fiddling.

[DadOfTwo]

With regard to the general question of 'electronic v. points', I'm really leaning toward the FSI Zipper. Mainly due to the centrifugal advance. I really like the idea of an automatic spark advance that is correct at all RPMs, rather than me paying attention, being able to hear the engine, and adjusting the lever manually. I think all this was said before, but wanted to emphasize the single overall reason I plan on going electronic.

[MrBruce]

I agree with Brent, I've had one in the box for many years. When I have trouble with my current modern points (which I haven't for 25 years) I know exactly what to do. When you have trouble with the Electronics, you may just have to replace the complete distributor and finish the ride. To hard to diagnose on the road and who carries an extra electronic unit with them on a tour?

[AL in NY]

I lot of folks carry a whole spare distributor (valve=$150-$200) just in case they may have a problem on the road. But the same folks say it's too expensive to carry a spare ignition module (valve=$70), that's not a very good excuse for not putting electronic ignition in their cars. I've never had to touch my distributor in 8,000 miles using one, timing has not changed at all it that time. A very reliable system.

[johnneilson]

OK, somewhat relevant to Model A's.

My current race car (Mod B motor) has a full electronic engine management system.
Yes, this means fuel injection and ignition.
I built it from current modern day car parts that are readily available.
My thought is this, if on the road away from home base I can get parts from many different auto parts stores. And have.

Now, I have had both fail in my lifetime, the latest is a pretty funny story though.
It happened to a Friend, '30 Vicky, all stock including distributor and points.
While driving through Montrose California one morning, the points slipped open and it backfired a couple times. Now, in Montrose, sleepy little town, this brought a series of calls to the local PD and the neighborhood was swamped with cruisers looking for trouble. I flagged one down and informed him of the ignition trouble. I'll bet they had a good laugh from that one.

As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

John

[Pete]

Here is something to ponder.
There are millions of cars out there running electronic ignitions and they run for several hundred thousand miles before going to the junk yard. Many never have the ignition looked at in that time.
Therefore, why do model A's with electronic ignitions have such a bad rap???
The hardware itself seems to be pretty foolproof.
Is it faulty installation? I think in MANY cases, yes.
Is it because the kits are aftermarket equipment and therefore lower quality than OEM stuff???
Who knows?
I do know that I have installed quite a few after market kits over the years and have never had one fail.
Back in the old days the tool kit carried in my hot rod which I drove all over the country, consisted of a screwdriver which doubled for a beer can puncher/opener (before pull tabs) and a pair of pliers used primarily to hold a used beer can over a camp fire to heat water for coffee.

[Charlville]

I've just had a second failure in three years. It's not so much the failure it's the fact that you can't really effect a repair when you are out on the road, unless of course you carry a spare module which is an expensive business. So, as a result I'm changing to points.

[barkleydave]

This is an area of opinions which will continue until the universe explodes.

Personal experience with Electronic Ign. has been good. I hear all the arguments pro and con and both have the same common contributing factors.

Improper installation:
* Poor ground (both points and Elec.)
* Worn Distrib/components (both points and Elec)
* Bad coil (both points and Elec)
* Wrong Coil (both points and Elec) Too high OHM, Too Low, External restistor etc.
* Left ignition on (both points and Elec)
* Over heating engine causing failures (both points and Elec)
* Shorts (both points and Elec)
* Worn points gap etc (points only)

I am sure there are many other examples. The cause of the failures generally are not related directly to points or mod. because of defects or quality. The failures common to both system are often external contributing to failures.

So keep use what you like.

[Art Newland]

***
oops

[Dick Steinkamp]

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