56' 312 No Spark..finally figured it out! and some transmission help

[My Old Blue]

This post is to share how I pulled my hair out for month troubleshooting a no spark situation. I scoured this forum and couldn't find a clear solution and learned alot as I read to lead me to thinking clearly.

I been cosmetically restoring my 312 to solve major leaks and replacing components that were not correct or missing. Did not feel a major overhaul was needed at this point. Before I started, the motor ran just fine after 30 years of storage. I replaced timing gears/chain and pulled the distributor to make timing the best it could be. Long story short, painted and put all back together and no spark.

Turns out when I pulled the distributor and cleaned up, upon assembly and unbeknownst to me, the small paper thin insulator between the distributor body and bolt that secures lead to the points was grounding out due to the leading edge was missing. There was just enough missing to ground. I put some electrical tape to replace the worn insulator, buttoned it all up and my 312 came alive!

I searched and could only find the insulator in a kit on a farm tractor website. Here are some pics of it and my solution as well as before and after pic on engine.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by My Old Blue

This post is to share how I pulled my hair out for month troubleshooting a no spark situation. I scoured this forum and couldn't find a clear solution and learned alot as I read to lead me to thinking clearly.

I been cosmetically restoring my 312 to solve major leaks and replacing components that were not correct or missing. Did not feel a major overhaul was needed at this point. Before I started, the motor ran just fine after 30 years of storage. I replaced timing gears/chain and pulled the distributor to make timing the best it could be. Long story short, painted and put all back together and no spark.

Turns out when I pulled the distributor and cleaned up, upon assembly and unbeknownst to me, the small paper thin insulator between the distributor body and bolt that secures lead to the points was grounding out due to the leading edge was missing. There was just enough missing to ground. I put some electrical tape to replace the worn insulator, buttoned it all up and my 312 came alive!

I searched and could only find the insulator in a kit on a farm tractor website. Here are some pics of it and my solution as well as before and after pic on engine.

Good job! Just goes to show that persistence pays off!

[dmsfrr]

Great detective work!
But watch out for corners of metal parts poking thru the electric tape fairly soon.
The tape isn't very substantial and will soften from engine heat. If you want the real part you should order it.
Or you could cut a small rectangle from a harder piece of plastic packaging material. example: water or milk bottle, one of those nearly impossible to open blister packs, etc.
.

[My Old Blue]

Yes! Temp fix for now. That kit is not a lot of $$ and will go that route before I get on the road. Thought I'd share that kit as I couldn't find it anywhere on traditional car part sites other than that tractor supply.

I have bigger issues now with with my shade tree attempt to seal up trans and now trans won't go into any gear..grr...that is for a other post after some research.

[callbald]

A piece of Fish paper will do the job. It is a durable, flexible, electrical insulator that’s made of vulcanized fiber. It's available a electronic supply stores and even on ebay. if the wire is the problem, I believe there is fish wrap

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by My Old Blue

... Thought I'd share that kit as I couldn't find it anywhere on traditional car part sites other than that tractor supply. ...

There are a few '55/'57 T-Bird resto supply houses that have small replacement parts for distributors, including that fiber-board insulator. Some parts aren't shown in their online catalog so it's best to call. The tractor supply place may be less expensive.

Example page... https://www.classictbird.com/Ignitio...roducts/45/2/0
.

[My Old Blue]

Fish paper...that is a new term to me. I'll look it up. Thanks for the tip!

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by My Old Blue

Yes! Temp fix for now. That kit is not a lot of $$ and will go that route before I get on the road. Thought I'd share that kit as I couldn't find it anywhere on traditional car part sites other than that tractor supply.

I have bigger issues now with with my shade tree attempt to seal up trans and now trans won't go into any gear..grr...that is for a other post after some research.

On your trans, did you reseal the shift shaft and throttle valve shaft seals? If so, the internal linkage may be out of place and not moving the shift valve. There is a pressure test port on the lower left front side of the case. It is an 1/8" pipe plug. Hook up a gauge to read pressure. If I remember, it should be around 40-50 lbs. in forward gears and 200+ in reverse. If zero, maybe fluid is low. If it sat a long time, fluid drains out of the torque converter back into the pan so if you drained the fluid before the engine was started it will take extra fluid to refill.

If you have pressure, watch the gauge as you shift the lever. The needle should twitch at each shift. If not, the internal linkage may be disconnected.

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

On your trans, did you reseal the shift shaft and throttle valve shaft seals? If so, the internal linkage may be out of place and not moving the shift valve. There is a pressure test port on the lower left front side of the case. It is an 1/8" pipe plug. Hook up a gauge to read pressure. If I remember, it should be around 40-50 lbs. in forward gears and 200+ in reverse. If zero, maybe fluid is low. If it sat a long time, fluid drains out of the torque converter back into the pan so if you drained the fluid before the engine was started it will take extra fluid to refill.

If you have pressure, watch the gauge as you shift the lever. The needle should twitch at each shift. If not, the internal linkage may be disconnected.

Yes I did repalce those two seals along with the two band actuators and some metal ring seals. Did not go into the clutch pack. I do believe I missed an engagement somewhere. Wagon will roll in park and when I try to move column shifter to Drive it stops and will not go further. There is no Reverse. About a qt low at idle right now. I know I missed something inside bc I still should be able to cycle through and or the parking pawl should be engaged.

[Daves55Sedan]

On the '55, 272 V8 distributor, the factory installed a round phenolic bushing thru the hole which isolated the threaded stud from the distributor body. As I recall, they did have a cheap piece of paper on the backside where the bolt goes thru.
However, you don't need to use any of that hardware if you get the modern distributor wire which has a built-in chamfered rubber plug that goes thru the hole in the side of the distributor. Many people have opted for this conversion and it is offered for all '54 thru '64 Y-block distributors.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

... you don't need to use any of that hardware if you get the modern distributor wire which has a built-in chamfered rubber plug that goes thru the hole in the side of the distributor. ...

My Old Blue
If you go this route don't pull hard on the long end of the wire when installing, if the fit is a bit too snug it's possible to break the wire inside the insulation and get an intermittent or no connection.
(don't ask how I know)

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

On the '55, 272 V8 distributor, the factory installed a round phenolic bushing thru the hole which isolated the threaded stud from the distributor body. As I recall, they did have a cheap piece of paper on the backside where the bolt goes thru.
However, you don't need to use any of that hardware if you get the modern distributor wire which has a built-in chamfered rubber plug that goes thru the hole in the side of the distributor. Many people have opted for this conversion and it is offered for all '54 thru '64 Y-block distributors.

This is great info! I was not aware a wire existed. I will research it.

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

My Old Blue
If you go this route don't pull hard on the long end of the wire when installing, if the fit is a bit too snug it's possible to break the wire inside the insulation and get an intermittent or no connection.
(don't ask how I know)

Great insight! Thank you.

[Daves55Sedan]

The aftermarket 1-piece wire I spoke of is being used by the distributor rebuilders. Some of the Repro parts suppliers are offering it also.
dmsfrr is correct about being careful when installing the wire. This type of wire is a type known as "machine tool wire" which is characterized by having smaller strands of copper, but more of them, so that there is maximum flexibility. The smaller strands would be much easier to break if you pulled on the wire too hard.
The best way to install them is to have the breaker plate removed so that you can push the enlarged "plug" portion of the wire into the hole from behind. But it can be done without removing breaker plate with a little enginuity and some small screwdrivers and small copper baling wire.

[rotorwrench]

You may have a leak inside the transmission. They loved to use tubes that are basically just a push fit. Those piston ring seals are also part of the fluid flow between the shaft and the distributor sleeve there. The rear band has to work in low and reverse and the front band has to work in intermediate gear along with applicable clutches and that stuff takes a good adjustment and pressure to work properly. This is why I think it sounds like a fluid pressure problem. If the throttle valve arm and gear selector arm are in position then that's the tack I would take in troubleshooting it.

[paul2748]

Thanks for letting us know about this kit. I actually ordered one as I have a distributor I am working on and the piece in there broke on me.

Originally Posted by My Old Blue

Yes! Temp fix for now. That kit is not a lot of $$ and will go that route before I get on the road. Thought I'd share that kit as I couldn't find it anywhere on traditional car part sites other than that tractor supply.

I have bigger issues now with with my shade tree attempt to seal up trans and now trans won't go into any gear..grr...that is for a other post after some research.

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

You may have a leak inside the transmission. They loved to use tubes that are basically just a push fit. Those piston ring seals are also part of the fluid flow between the shaft and the distributor sleeve there. The rear band has to work in low and reverse and the front band has to work in intermediate gear along with applicable clutches and that stuff takes a good adjustment and pressure to work properly. This is why I think it sounds like a fluid pressure problem. If the throttle valve arm and gear selector arm are in position then that's the tack I would take in troubleshooting it.

Thank you all for input. I did re-seal the torque converter, piston seals and new rings on input shaft with taking note to insure the rings were not lined up. Pulled valve body out but did not tear down. New filter. Tubes did come out and new o-rings. Detent spring/ball appear/feels to still be in place. When I actuate the shift lever down, it moves three positions and stops. I can't recall if supposed to rotate further as shown on the shift column I cannot go past Neutral to Drive.

Sounds like I do have a pressure issue and will get a gauge on and top off with another quart before I pull the pan off. Note that this trans has worked flawlessly before storage and even after coming out of 20+ year storage.

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Thanks for letting us know about this kit. I actually ordered one as I have a distributor I am working on and the piece in there broke on me.

That is great! Happy I could contribute.

[My Old Blue]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

On your trans, did you reseal the shift shaft and throttle valve shaft seals? If so, the internal linkage may be out of place and not moving the shift valve. There is a pressure test port on the lower left front side of the case. It is an 1/8" pipe plug. Hook up a gauge to read pressure. If I remember, it should be around 40-50 lbs. in forward gears and 200+ in reverse. If zero, maybe fluid is low. If it sat a long time, fluid drains out of the torque converter back into the pan so if you drained the fluid before the engine was started it will take extra fluid to refill.

If you have pressure, watch the gauge as you shift the lever. The needle should twitch at each shift. If not, the internal linkage may be disconnected.

40 Deluxe - I pulled pan and saw right away what I did wrong when I replaced the shifter shaft seal and put back together. I did assemble wrong.... After I fixed my error I followed the Ford Transmission shop manual to adjusted the shifter linkage. All is perfect. I have yet to road test and check pressures. I will say in all the years I had to shimmy the shifter to find neutral to start, this adjustment fixed that issue! Starts right up in neutral now! Thank you for all your help here.