The Ford Barn

Joe AZ · 07-22-2012, 07:55 PM

I'm completing a brake job on my '40 coupe, getting ready to re-install the drums. I'm finding that neither nut wants to go back on the axle, more than about 1 1/2 turn. I purchased some new castle nuts with the same results. The threads don't look too bad, and I'm wondering what I need to do to clean them up? What is the difference between a die, a thread chaser, and a re-threader? I've heard all three terms. What should be my approach?
And finally, is this a 5/8" x 18 thread?
Thanks,
Joe

Andy · 07-22-2012, 08:18 PM

What you really need is a split die. It can be placed over undamaged threads and worked out to fix the damaged ones. I can do this but shipping would be terrible, Ask at machinery repair shops.
You really need it done right due to the torque put on those nuts.

19Fordy · 07-22-2012, 09:58 PM

This will work and can be bought at a good hardware supply store. Make sure you open the die up to make it cut larger so you can get it on your threads.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G6965

Here is a thread 5/8-11 thread chaser. Call and ask if you can buy the 5/8-18 version.
I would prefer to use this instead of a conventional die.
http://www.shopwiki.com/l/thread-chaser-steel

Here's another external thread chaser that works great as you can separate the die and place it on the good threads and then back it off and clean up the damaged threads.
http://www.amazon.com/Murray-Tools-T.../dp/B003H2K6PW
I think this is the best version since you can actually control your depth of cut.

I have seen folks carefully enlarge the threads inside a castle nut by using a conventional tap inside the nut. They did not turn the tap so deep that it would pass thru the castle nut so the castle nut would still retain it "tightness" on the threads. Use the trial and fit method so the castle nut still has a tight fit.

Just for the heck of it see if a regular 5/8-18 nut will fit, but don't use it in the final assembly.

Charlie Stephens · 07-22-2012, 10:37 PM

No mater the final outcome you should install safety hub or safety clips on the drums when it goes back together.

Charlie Stephens

ford38v8 · 07-22-2012, 10:56 PM

Joe, Apparently, you used a hub pulller that damaged the threads on your axle. Too late for a KRW puller now, but you should have one for the future, well worth the investment to save your much more valuable axles and hubs.

Never attempt to repair threads by recutting. Always "chase" threads, as you cannot afford to lose any meat. This goes for spark plug holes also. "Threadchaser" is what you want, it doesn't cut, it forms.

PeteVS · 07-23-2012, 05:24 AM

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I tried to make a rig using a die (yes, it is 5/8-18 thread) by cutting the die in half and putting the halves on the thread and then assembling a die holder onto the die. DIDN'T WORK! Old timers should have a tool specifially made for this where the die chaser is machined into two bars that are hinged together, kind of like an old nut cracker. Just open it up, place it on the good portion of the thread and turn it off the threads recutting or reforming the buggered up portion.

Basically, because the threads have been cut, any operation that CUTS the metal will leave severely compromised material behind. A thread chaser should only be PUSHING metal back to where it should be.

Terry,OH · 07-23-2012, 06:08 AM

If you removed the nut without too much force or did not use much force to remove the hub with the puller, I would try installing the original castle or slotted hex nut with the drum and hub installed. Just take a wire brush and clean the thread. The reason being the thread is 5/8-18 but there are different classes of the thread and the axle AND the nut are of a unusual class. The classes vary by the percentage of mating thread. Usual only about 60% of the male and female thread overlap, the thread on the rear axles is much higher %. plus the threads are hardened. Taking a normal fixed Class H3 die to the male thread on the axle will remove too much material and forever change the thread. The nut is supposed to be tightened to about 200 ft/lb and you need the threads unchanged to prevent the threads from stripping at this torque. If the nut will not go on without much force and it is apparent there is damage to the male axle thread then use the type of split die that can be placed over the deepest part of the thread and adjust so it is not cutting but tight then work the die out to the deformed end as Andy suggested above. Dies are used to cut new thread, a thread repair die is used to repair but unless you have the correct size repair die your still going to have problems. Using the K R Wilson type hub puller will prevent damage in the future.

31chevy · 07-23-2012, 07:05 AM

Here is a picture of what PeteVs is refering to, it is a Galvin #224 don't know if it still availabe or not I have had it for many years.

37don · 07-23-2012, 07:32 AM

You can try to put the nut on until it hangs up and the tap the nut on the end and around the flats and keep backing of and re-tightening until it goes on with little resistance. This doesn't always work but I have done this for years with pretty good results including my 37 axles. You don't remove any metal, you just straiten the threads.
Regards, Don

Joe AZ · 07-23-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

No mater the final outcome you should install safety hub or safety clips on the drums when it goes back together.

Charlie Stephens

Thanks Charlie,
Yes I do have a set of safety clip that I plan on installing.
Joe

Joe AZ · 07-23-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Joe, Apparently, you used a hub pulller that damaged the threads on your axle. Too late for a KRW puller now, but you should have one for the future, well worth the investment to save your much more valuable axles and hubs.

Never attempt to repair threads by recutting. Always "chase" threads, as you cannot afford to lose any meat. This goes for spark plug holes also. "Threadchaser" is what you want, it doesn't cut, it forms.

Alan,
Yeah, you're right, I used the old Proto 3 arm puller I have. Ironically, a friend of mine has the KRW puller, but he lives about 4 hours from me. Guess I should have made the effort to get it, or purchase my own.
Joe

Joe AZ · 07-23-2012, 09:11 AM

Thanks to all who responded to my question. I'll be working in Phoenix this week and will check out some tool suppliers for some options.
Joe

Joe AZ · 08-05-2012, 12:10 PM

Just as a follow-up to my questions a couple of weeks ago regarding repair of rear axle threads, I thought I'd share my experience.
When a conventional thread chaser didn't want to start on the ends of the axle, I ended up ordering a "split die" chaser, as some suggested. This chaser came from Murray Tools, it's two pieces, held together by a spring.
Placing the die over the axle, and using a 1 7/16" socket, I worked the chaser off of the axle. Worked great.
Now I'm wondering if anyone knows of a source of NOS nuts? The new ones ordered from a major supplier don't seem to come close to the quality of the originals.
When I pulled the hubs I had an original nut on one side and a hardware store replacement on the other.
By the way, the next time I pull the hubs I'll buy or borrow a KRW style puller.
Thanks to everyone,
Joe

hardtimes · 08-05-2012, 01:55 PM

Hey Joe,
Thanks much for very helpful follow up info!
I'm kinda in the same 'boat' as you on this subject and would like your input to my posted pic of axle nuts below. One on left is an original henry axle nut..I think. While nut on right is one, of two, that I just received in an mail order. The difference in appearance is clearly seen in the pic. What I need to know, is...is the replacement nut 'hardened' like I'm informed ford made originals? Can replacement take 220 ft lbs torque as suggested torque , by guys here? And, as the orig (?)nut in pic appears good, should that nut take preference over replacement..even tho is USED? Finally, (you've shown that the axle thread can be 'repaired/restored' somewhat)...the second 'orig' nut that I have , has a somewhat messed up thread...can it be similarly restored satisfactorily to reuse? Replacement parts give me the worries,eh!

19Fordy · 08-05-2012, 02:44 PM

You can actually "squeeze" the castellated top of castle nut in a vise to slighly crush the castellated part of the nut so that it will grip tighter. Also, I know the Ford specs recommend 200 foot lbs of torque, but I have always found that 175 is sufficient. Over 50 years of tighening those nuts to 200+ foot pounds really must strain the threads to the point that they do begin to strip. As for the nuts, perhaps Roy Naciewiz (spelling?) has them. And yes, those nut threads can be restored.

hardtimes · 08-05-2012, 04:11 PM

Thanks for 'tip' re nut top adjustment! Will check with nashahwitchz to see what he has in stock. Hmm, am wondering what PROPER tool is to 'restore' nut threads....like the great pic/advice on how to correctly restore axle threads.

Mart · 08-05-2012, 04:28 PM

I wouldn't try and fix threads in a nut that show damage. Big difference in cost between an axle shaft and a nut.

Mart.

19Fordy · 08-05-2012, 07:44 PM

Mart is correct. Do your very best to find an original OEM castle nut. Yes, you could probbably use a thread chaser to reform the threads inside the nut, but it just doesn't seem like the best thing to do. Just for the heck of it read this info. about using hardened aircraft nuts.
http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/AircraftNuts.html

Joe AZ · 08-05-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Joe,
Thanks much for very helpful follow up info!
I'm kinda in the same 'boat' as you on this subject and would like your input to my posted pic of axle nuts below. One on left is an original henry axle nut..I think. While nut on right is one, of two, that I just received in an mail order. The difference in appearance is clearly seen in the pic. What I need to know, is...is the replacement nut 'hardened' like I'm informed ford made originals? Can replacement take 220 ft lbs torque as suggested torque , by guys here? And, as the orig (?)nut in pic appears good, should that nut take preference over replacement..even tho is USED? Finally, (you've shown that the axle thread can be 'repaired/restored' somewhat)...the second 'orig' nut that I have , has a somewhat messed up thread...can it be similarly restored satisfactorily to reuse? Replacement parts give me the worries,eh!

Hardtimes,
I could have taken the same picture that you provided! We have exactly the same castle nuts, original vs. replacement. After cleaning up the threads, the original, used nut, felt like it fit much better, and was a more secure option. Unfortunately, I only have one. Will be looking for another original before I tighten things up.
Joe

Joe AZ · 08-05-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

I wouldn't try and fix threads in a nut that show damage. Big difference in cost between an axle shaft and a nut.

Mart.

I agree totally, Mart. That's why I waited to get what I thought was the correct tool to chase the threads. I didn't want to risk ruining the axles, and needing to remove the whole rear end.
Joe

19Fordy · 08-05-2012, 08:37 PM

JoeAZ: I found the rear axle nuts. Roy Naiswicz has them. Page 8 Part #H-001 Call vendor to confirm.
http://www.fordscript.com/ford_bolts...TS%20part1.pdf

Joe AZ · 08-05-2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

JoeAZ: I found the rear axle nuts. Roy Naiswicz has them. Page 8 Part #H-001 Call vendor to confirm.
http://www.fordscript.com/ford_bolts...TS%20part1.pdf

Thanks Jim.....appreciate the help. I'm sure Roy's product will be superior to what I purchased.
Got to get this '40 back on the road!
Joe

Alaska Jim · 08-06-2012, 12:10 AM

If threads are not to messed up, you may be able to use a thread file. takes a while and has to be done carefully.

hardtimes · 08-06-2012, 12:05 PM

Good info, thanks! We both be looking. Hopefully Roy N. has right stuff and enough for both of us,eh!

Bruce Lancaster · 08-06-2012, 12:35 PM

"Little Giant" makes split dies with a special handle, fairly easy to find and not too terribly expensive. The die stock allows the two parts to start loose and then be slowly cranked in, with a clear mark to indicate normal setting. Goal is to try to do minimal cutting and try to sort of roll the dislocated metal back home. The big multi-thread tool is fairly common, too...probably there is someone on this board near you with one of those.
When using any puller you should have a cap over the end of the threads...an easy way to make one is to buy a knocker type puller, only about $5 from Model A places, and cut away the excess length. Also ding the center to locate the point on puller.
Three legged pullers are also dangerous to hub and drum because of the big Ford bolt pattern...if the hub was properly tightened the pull needed can easily be enough to warp the hub, and I once saw a very stuck Model A assembly SPLIT the drum before the hub popped loose!

Pete · 08-06-2012, 12:55 PM

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In most cases, with any type puller, if you take a moderate strain on the puller and then heat the hub in the taper area to about 300 to 400 degrees (this is well below critical) the hub will pop off.

07-22-2012, 07:55 PM	#1
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Axle Thread Questions I'm completing a brake job on my '40 coupe, getting ready to re-install the drums. I'm finding that neither nut wants to go back on the axle, more than about 1 1/2 turn. I purchased some new castle nuts with the same results. The threads don't look too bad, and I'm wondering what I need to do to clean them up? What is the difference between a die, a thread chaser, and a re-threader? I've heard all three terms. What should be my approach? And finally, is this a 5/8" x 18 thread? Thanks, Joe

07-22-2012, 09:58 PM	#3
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,942	Re: Axle Thread Questions This will work and can be bought at a good hardware supply store. Make sure you open the die up to make it cut larger so you can get it on your threads. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G6965 Here is a thread 5/8-11 thread chaser. Call and ask if you can buy the 5/8-18 version. I would prefer to use this instead of a conventional die. http://www.shopwiki.com/l/thread-chaser-steel Here's another external thread chaser that works great as you can separate the die and place it on the good threads and then back it off and clean up the damaged threads. http://www.amazon.com/Murray-Tools-T.../dp/B003H2K6PW I think this is the best version since you can actually control your depth of cut. I have seen folks carefully enlarge the threads inside a castle nut by using a conventional tap inside the nut. They did not turn the tap so deep that it would pass thru the castle nut so the castle nut would still retain it "tightness" on the threads. Use the trial and fit method so the castle nut still has a tight fit. Just for the heck of it see if a regular 5/8-18 nut will fit, but don't use it in the final assembly. Last edited by 19Fordy; 07-22-2012 at 10:24 PM.

07-22-2012, 10:37 PM	#4
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,032	Re: Axle Thread Questions No mater the final outcome you should install safety hub or safety clips on the drums when it goes back together. Charlie Stephens

07-22-2012, 10:56 PM	#5
ford38v8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 6,645	Re: Axle Thread Questions Joe, Apparently, you used a hub pulller that damaged the threads on your axle. Too late for a KRW puller now, but you should have one for the future, well worth the investment to save your much more valuable axles and hubs. Never attempt to repair threads by recutting. Always "chase" threads, as you cannot afford to lose any meat. This goes for spark plug holes also. "Threadchaser" is what you want, it doesn't cut, it forms. __________________ Alan

07-23-2012, 05:24 AM	#6
PeteVS Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: FP, NJ Posts: 2,770	Re: Axle Thread Questions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I tried to make a rig using a die (yes, it is 5/8-18 thread) by cutting the die in half and putting the halves on the thread and then assembling a die holder onto the die. DIDN'T WORK! Old timers should have a tool specifially made for this where the die chaser is machined into two bars that are hinged together, kind of like an old nut cracker. Just open it up, place it on the good portion of the thread and turn it off the threads recutting or reforming the buggered up portion. Basically, because the threads have been cut, any operation that CUTS the metal will leave severely compromised material behind. A thread chaser should only be PUSHING metal back to where it should be. __________________ Don't never get rid of nuthin!

07-22-2012, 08:18 PM	#2
Andy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kerrville, Tx Posts: 2,769	Re: Axle Thread Questions What you really need is a split die. It can be placed over undamaged threads and worked out to fix the damaged ones. I can do this but shipping would be terrible, Ask at machinery repair shops. You really need it done right due to the torque put on those nuts.

07-23-2012, 06:08 AM	#7
Terry,OH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,751	Re: Axle Thread Questions If you removed the nut without too much force or did not use much force to remove the hub with the puller, I would try installing the original castle or slotted hex nut with the drum and hub installed. Just take a wire brush and clean the thread. The reason being the thread is 5/8-18 but there are different classes of the thread and the axle AND the nut are of a unusual class. The classes vary by the percentage of mating thread. Usual only about 60% of the male and female thread overlap, the thread on the rear axles is much higher %. plus the threads are hardened. Taking a normal fixed Class H3 die to the male thread on the axle will remove too much material and forever change the thread. The nut is supposed to be tightened to about 200 ft/lb and you need the threads unchanged to prevent the threads from stripping at this torque. If the nut will not go on without much force and it is apparent there is damage to the male axle thread then use the type of split die that can be placed over the deepest part of the thread and adjust so it is not cutting but tight then work the die out to the deformed end as Andy suggested above. Dies are used to cut new thread, a thread repair die is used to repair but unless you have the correct size repair die your still going to have problems. Using the K R Wilson type hub puller will prevent damage in the future.

07-23-2012, 07:32 AM	#9
37don Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Kingstown, R.I. Posts: 262	Re: Axle Thread Questions You can try to put the nut on until it hangs up and the tap the nut on the end and around the flats and keep backing of and re-tightening until it goes on with little resistance. This doesn't always work but I have done this for years with pretty good results including my 37 axles. You don't remove any metal, you just straiten the threads. Regards, Don

07-23-2012, 09:11 AM	#12
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Re: Axle Thread Questions Thanks to all who responded to my question. I'll be working in Phoenix this week and will check out some tool suppliers for some options. Joe

08-05-2012, 02:44 PM	#15
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,942	Re: Axle Thread Questions You can actually "squeeze" the castellated top of castle nut in a vise to slighly crush the castellated part of the nut so that it will grip tighter. Also, I know the Ford specs recommend 200 foot lbs of torque, but I have always found that 175 is sufficient. Over 50 years of tighening those nuts to 200+ foot pounds really must strain the threads to the point that they do begin to strip. As for the nuts, perhaps Roy Naciewiz (spelling?) has them. And yes, those nut threads can be restored.

08-05-2012, 04:11 PM	#16
hardtimes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South California Posts: 6,188	Re: Axle Thread Questions Thanks for 'tip' re nut top adjustment! Will check with nashahwitchz to see what he has in stock. Hmm, am wondering what PROPER tool is to 'restore' nut threads....like the great pic/advice on how to correctly restore axle threads.

08-05-2012, 04:28 PM	#17
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,752	Re: Axle Thread Questions I wouldn't try and fix threads in a nut that show damage. Big difference in cost between an axle shaft and a nut. Mart.

08-05-2012, 07:44 PM	#18
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,942	Re: Axle Thread Questions Mart is correct. Do your very best to find an original OEM castle nut. Yes, you could probbably use a thread chaser to reform the threads inside the nut, but it just doesn't seem like the best thing to do. Just for the heck of it read this info. about using hardened aircraft nuts. http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/AircraftNuts.html Last edited by 19Fordy; 08-05-2012 at 07:49 PM.

08-05-2012, 08:37 PM	#21
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,942	Re: Axle Thread Questions JoeAZ: I found the rear axle nuts. Roy Naiswicz has them. Page 8 Part #H-001 Call vendor to confirm. http://www.fordscript.com/ford_bolts...TS%20part1.pdf Last edited by 19Fordy; 08-05-2012 at 08:44 PM.

08-06-2012, 12:10 AM	#23
Alaska Jim Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Palmer, Alaska Posts: 1,575	Re: Axle Thread Questions If threads are not to messed up, you may be able to use a thread file. takes a while and has to be done carefully.

08-06-2012, 12:05 PM	#24
hardtimes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South California Posts: 6,188	Re: Axle Thread Questions Good info, thanks! We both be looking. Hopefully Roy N. has right stuff and enough for both of us,eh!

08-06-2012, 12:35 PM	#25
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Axle Thread Questions "Little Giant" makes split dies with a special handle, fairly easy to find and not too terribly expensive. The die stock allows the two parts to start loose and then be slowly cranked in, with a clear mark to indicate normal setting. Goal is to try to do minimal cutting and try to sort of roll the dislocated metal back home. The big multi-thread tool is fairly common, too...probably there is someone on this board near you with one of those. When using any puller you should have a cap over the end of the threads...an easy way to make one is to buy a knocker type puller, only about $5 from Model A places, and cut away the excess length. Also ding the center to locate the point on puller. Three legged pullers are also dangerous to hub and drum because of the big Ford bolt pattern...if the hub was properly tightened the pull needed can easily be enough to warp the hub, and I once saw a very stuck Model A assembly SPLIT the drum before the hub popped loose!

08-06-2012, 12:55 PM	#26
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,408	Re: Axle Thread Questions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) In most cases, with any type puller, if you take a moderate strain on the puller and then heat the hub in the taper area to about 300 to 400 degrees (this is well below critical) the hub will pop off.