The Ford Barn

zuburg · 11-16-2016, 10:00 PM

I finally found the timing marks on the edge of the inside pulley (man, were they faint). I added white paint to make them easier to see. I'm now struggling with finding TDC to line up with the timing marks.

I finally found the compression stroke (it was much easier after I removed all the spark plugs instead of just #1). But when I turn the crank to move the piston to near TDC, the timing marks are no where close.

I believe the pulley is one piece with the damper and cannot move so cannot figure out how this can be. If I turn the crank to line up the timing marks. The piston is way down (I assume close to bottom).

I have fitted the distributor so the rotor points fairly close to #1 on the cap. I took some pictures to show what I gave.

1st picture shows pulley with timing marks

2nd picture shows pointer and pulley where I think TDC is. The chalk mark on the front of the pulley (about 7:00) shows where the TDC mark is on the pulley.

2nd picture shows placement of distributor, blue tape shows where #1 plug wire goes on cap.

3rd picture shows valves

What am I doing wrong?

dmsfrr · 11-16-2016, 10:57 PM

With the passenger side valve cover off you can confirm the #1 TDC firing position of the engine by turning the crankshaft clockwise (when looking at the front of the engine) until the cyl #1 Intake valve opens and closes (it's the second valve back from the front of the engine) then turn slightly more until you can feel the piston stop at TDC, with your finger in the spark-plug hole.
The "0" timing mark on the crank pulley and timing pointer 'should' line up.

Since your damper pulley used to be held together with a previous owners bolts instead of the factory rivets it's possible the pulley was put on the hub out of position from the crankshaft keyway sometime in the past and not checked before it was rebuilt.
If that's the case it needs to go back to the rebuilder and fixed correctly, on their dime.

I'm assuming the one in the first photo below has it's timing marks in the original location since as far as I know it's never been apart, and... I have another T-Bird crank pulley with the timing marks in the same spot. (2nd photo) BUT, I haven't tried installing either one.
I guess I have a 'test-fit' project for tomorrow.

Cyl #1 position may be marked on top of your dist cap. The cap & dist housing should look like and be set in the same rotational position as in this firing order diagram. (below)
Your distributor housing and rotor both look out of position for #1 TDC. Pull the housing out slightly and turn the rotor shaft about 2 teeth counter-clockwise.
#1 wire and the rotor should be one position clockwise from the lower dist cap spring, look closely at the cap diagram for the white rectangles that indicate the locations of the dist cap hold-down springs.
.

zuburg · 11-17-2016, 12:33 AM

When watching the intake valve, does it open when it goes down or goes up?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The inner pulley where the timing marks are is part of the hub and shaft where the key-way is, so the timing marks cannot be out of position as related to the key-way. The outer pulley is either riveted or bolted to the inner pulley. I had mine rebuilt by Damper Doctor.

The blue tape in my picture is about one position to the left of the bottom clamp (it dropped down and can't be seen in the picture). You can see the other clamp in the picture which will be opposite of the bottom one. The rotor is one position clockwise from the #1 cylinder position (as shown by blue tape). I have been fiddling with the position of the distributor and rotor, and left it one position off to ask this question.

One other related problem I have is the oil pump shaft does not stay centered in the opening. I have to use a screwdriver to try and position it. In fact there seems to be some tension on it as I can move it to one side and it springs back over. Could there be a problem with the pump and shaft? Should I remove the oil pump and refit the shaft?

It appears to me that if I line the pointer on the TDC timing mark, the piston is down, not up. If I turn the crank 360 degrees to bring the marks back to the pointer, I assume that would be on the exhaust stroke, but the piston is again in the down position. The only

dmsfrr · 11-17-2016, 02:08 AM

zuburg; When watching the intake valve, does it open when it goes down or goes up?
dmsfrr; The valve is open when it is pressed down and it's spring is compressed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The inner pulley where the timing marks are is part of the hub and shaft where the key-way is, so the timing marks cannot be out of position as related to the key-way. The outer pulley is either riveted or bolted to the inner pulley. I had mine rebuilt by Damper Doctor.
The four individual pieces that make up the sides of the double pulley, with the timing marks, are riveted to a flange on the front of the hub. They can be mounted in any of 6 positions.

The blue tape in my picture is about one position to the left of the bottom clamp (it dropped down and can't be seen in the picture). You can see the other clamp in the picture which will be opposite of the bottom one. The rotor is one position clockwise from the #1 cylinder position (as shown by blue tape). I have been fiddling with the position of the distributor and rotor, and left it one position off to ask this question.

One other related problem I have is the oil pump shaft does not stay centered in the opening. I have to use a screwdriver to try and position it. In fact there seems to be some tension on it as I can move it to one side and it springs back over. Could there be a problem with the pump and shaft? Should I remove the oil pump and refit the shaft?
It could just be gravity, there is nothing to center it except the bottom of the dist shaft.

It appears to me that if I line the pointer on the TDC timing mark, the piston is down, not up. If I turn the crank 360 degrees to bring the marks back to the pointer, I assume that would be on the exhaust stroke, but the piston is again in the down position.
When the "0" mark on the pulley is lined up with the timing pointer the #1 piston should be at TDC of either the firing stroke or the exhaust stroke, not down at all.
I think the crank pulley was put together out of position. You could re-mark the pulley correctly when the #1 piston is actually at TDC, or return it to Damper Dr.

I'll try to test fit the crank pulleys I have and see what happens...
.

zuburg · 11-17-2016, 08:09 AM

Thank you, this is all very helpful. I can now see the flange and how the pulley is attached. I suspect you are right about the pulleys not being positioned properly. I did remove the bolts and the outside pulley once but can't remember why. I bet Damper Doctor did not notice I screwed it up. One would hope they would have found the timing marks and ensured it was put together correctly. It would also have been nice if they had put white paint on the marks. It costs so much to ship the damper, I think I can reposition the pulleys. If I set the engine to close to TDC, then reposition the pulleys to the closest position, then I should be able to find exact TDC using the marks.

dmsfrr · 11-17-2016, 12:51 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zuburg

I think I can reposition the pulleys. If I set the engine to close to TDC, then reposition the pulleys to the closest position, then I should be able to find exact TDC using the marks.

I'm not sure how you'd (easily) remove and replace the big rivets.
DD may be willing to fix the mistake at their expense? Call them and ask, it's worth a try.

Once #1 TDC is correctly located it would be much simpler to re-mark the pulley with a file notch and a dot of white paint on the rear edge and paint black over the wrong ones, if it comes to that.

I'll be trying out the two I have later today on my mostly finished 292 and will let you know what I find. Gotta go get dog food and groceries first.

dmsfrr · 11-17-2016, 08:32 PM

Ok, here goes nuthin'...

Spoiler Alert - (it lined up just like it was supposed to)

To make sure the engine was where I wanted it I turned it clockwise with just a bolt in the end of the crank til the #1 intake valve closed and about a 1/4 turn more til the air squirted past my little finger in the #1 spark plug hole and I could feel the piston stop moving upward.
The key on the crank was at about 7 o'clock. (1st photo)

I put the crank pulley on til it wouldn't go any more then put the timing pointer on the bottom two water pump bolts. Because the crank had moved I turned it clockwise a couple more turns to make sure it really was back at #1 TDC firing position (little finger w/ air pressure & feeling the piston thru the spark plug hole) and looked at the timing pointer & pulley. (2nd photo)

To double check myself I removed the pulley bolt to look at the position of the keyway, which was at about 7 o'clock, same as when I started. (3rd photo)

If you need any better/different photos or something else I'll give it my best shot.

I hope to get to the distributor tomorrow or Saturday. My Honey-do list is calling also.

.

paul2748 · 11-17-2016, 08:56 PM

You are checking all this on the right (passenger) side of the engine? Just checking as #1 is on the right side of the engine, front cylinder.

dmsfrr · 11-17-2016, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul2748

You are checking all this on the right (passenger) side of the engine? Just checking as #1 is on the right side of the engine, front cylinder.

Yes, passenger side front, closest to the generator, if it was on the engine (where it should be) instead of still on a shelf.
Like the diagram in the third photo, comment #2 above.

zuburg · 11-17-2016, 10:57 PM

As I mentioned before, my pulleys were bolted together instead of riveted. I was surprised Damper Doctor didn't put it back together with rivets. I was able to remove the bolts and re-position them to line the timing marks where they should be.

My only problem now is getting the rotor to line up on the #1 position on the distributor. I'm one position to the left (counter-clockwise) off. Is that advanced? Will I eventually want it advanced that much anyway? I tried to re-position it, but it kept wanting to mate with the crank shaft gear in that position.

dmsfrr · 11-18-2016, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zuburg

As I mentioned before, my pulleys were bolted together instead of riveted. I was surprised Damper Doctor didn't put it back together with rivets. I was able to remove the bolts and re-position them to line the timing marks where they should be.

I'm surprised too.
At least it was an easy fix, Great News!

If no one else chimes in before then, I'll let you know how I get the distributor in, as soon as I can get back to it.

I feel a bit guilty for having a hand in detouring you down this road. But getting out to the garage for this is about the most time I've spent on my car in the last few months. So I guess we both win.

Thanks,
Dennis

paul2748 · 11-18-2016, 10:38 PM

I find that getting the distributor in the correct position can be a real pain.

Many times the dizzy will not go in at the correct place because it is hanging up on the oil pump drive rod. What you have to do is turn the rod slightly and try the distributor. If it still doesn't work, move the rod a little more. Repeat process until the dizzy goes down in the position you want it. It's a trial and error process.

I'm also surprised on it being bolted rather than riveted. While they did a Tbird damper for me and it basically turned out ok, I had asked them to make the TDC and advance marks more legible. They did not. I had to do it myself - no biggie but they ignored my request.

Now I will have to check my damper to see if riveted or bolted

Quote:

Originally Posted by zuburg

As I mentioned before, my pulleys were bolted together instead of riveted. I was surprised Damper Doctor didn't put it back together with rivets. I was able to remove the bolts and re-position them to line the timing marks where they should be.

My only problem now is getting the rotor to line up on the #1 position on the distributor. I'm one position to the left (counter-clockwise) off. Is that advanced? Will I eventually want it advanced that much anyway? I tried to re-position it, but it kept wanting to mate with the crank shaft gear in that position.

dmsfrr · 11-19-2016, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul2748

I find that getting the distributor in the correct position can be a real pain.

Many times the dizzy will not go in at the correct place because it is hanging up on the oil pump drive rod. What you have to do is turn the rod slightly and try the distributor. If it still doesn't work, move the rod a little more. Repeat process until the dizzy goes down in the position you want it. It's a trial and error process......

Yes, the oil pump shaft has 6 sides, the dist cam gear has fourteen teeth, unless the two just happen to line up the distributor won't drop into position easily.
Turning either the pump shaft or the crank/cam very slightly should help it fit into place. It still might take a few tries to get it just where you want it but it will eventually get there.

A thin film of anti-seize compound (or oil, grease?) on the lower part of the dist housing where it fits inside the block could be a good thing. It will help prevent corrosion that can cause the distributor to become stuck in the block.

Make sure the dist housing is all the way down into it's hole in the block, metal to metal, with no gasket in-between. The rotation and pitch of the cam & dist drive gear teeth pulls the dist shaft down into the block and if the housing sits slightly high it can cause excessive wear of the distributor bushings and eventual damage to the distributor housing. (been there, done that, had to pay the bill)
.

.

Y-Blockhead · 11-22-2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul2748

I find that getting the distributor in the correct position can be a real pain.

Many times the dizzy will not go in at the correct place because it is hanging up on the oil pump drive rod. What you have to do is turn the rod slightly and try the distributor. If it still doesn't work, move the rod a little more. Repeat process until the dizzy goes down in the position you want it. It's a trial and error process.

Sometimes, over the years, the oil pump driveshaft is installed incorrectly. While it will work either way, the pointy end should face up to help guide the shaft into the distributor. (Picture #1) Just an FYI...

If you want to find 'True' TDC use a piston stop (picture#2 below).

DISCONNECT the battery. You certainly don't want to forget and hit the starter with this in your spark plug hole. Slowly rotate engine until #1 piston touches stop. Mark pulley. Rotate engine in opposite direction ~180° until #1 piston touches stop again. Mark pulley. 1/2 way between these two marks is True TDC for #1).

zuburg · 11-27-2016, 08:46 PM

Well, I have been doing the trial and error approach for awhile. Turning the oil pump shaft a little, and trying again. Anytime I get the distributor all the way down, it moves to be one position off on the distributor. I'm only doing this to ensure I can get it fitted. Once I install the engine into the car, I will have to prime the engine with oil using the oil pump shaft and re-install the distributor.

I installed a new oil pump and shaft and may have installed it upside down. I assume it is not worth dropping the oil pump and re-installing the shaft right side up? Engine is still on an engine stand.

Worst case, if I can't get the distributor where I want it, is it OK to just mark the connector that is one position to the left of the one marked for #1 cyl, and attach the #1 spark plug wire to that, and the rest of the wires in the right order from there?

Y-Blockhead · 11-27-2016, 09:26 PM

You should be able to tell without pulling it. If it looks pointed then it is in correctly. If it looks rounded off then it is upside down. If you put the clip at the top of the shaft where it should be you can pull it out the top.

Sounds to me like your not turning the distributor back far enough to engage the next tooth on the cam. Try turning it a little farther than it looks like you need to. As the gears mesh, the shaft will turn.

Remember there are 14 teeth on the gear. That means you will have to turn it ~25° to mesh the next tooth.

Also may I suggest you prime the engine before you install the engine. Make sure you get oil up the the rockers. Then install the distributor.

miker98038 · 11-27-2016, 09:31 PM

Now is the time to get everything right, especially the oil pump shaft. Much easier out of the car, and if you have to pull the dizzy again, it'll be worth it.

Yes, you can install the wires in order. Just make sure the dizzy will rotate to the correct timing position without the vacuum can hitting something first. That's a common problem, but maybe at 2 teeth off, I can't remember.

Second, I normally prime the motor on the engine stand, which makes it easy to rotate the motor while priming. That allows filling all the passages, rod bearings, and verifying oil to the rockers. If your lifting arrangement allows, put it in with the dizzy in too.

Edit: Y-Blockhead got in while I was typing. I'm not disagreeing with him.

zuburg · 11-28-2016, 12:17 AM

Regarding the clip at the top of the shaft: I thought the instructions said to put the clip on the shaft, then feed it up through the top of the oil pump? The purpose of the clip was to prevent the shaft from coming out of the oil pump when removing the distributor. Is this wrong?

zuburg · 11-28-2016, 12:25 AM

I was planning to install the engine before priming the oil because when we pulled the engine the oil filter was very close to the drive shaft and we removed the filter to give us plenty if room. I'm glad to hear you can prime the oil prior to installing the engine. I was planning on using a drill to turn the oil pump to get the oil to the rockers. Am I supposed to also turn the crank to help distribute the oil? If so, how much should I turn the crank?

flatrod · 11-28-2016, 01:22 AM

I would prime on the stand as well. With a grooved cam center journal you should not have to turn the crank while priming. As for installing the dist, I get it where I want it, if the pump does not line up I just hold a little downward pressure on the dist and turn the crank by hand till it drops in. (Assuming you have the pointed end up.) Then go back and check to make sure it is still timed where you want it. Also don't time it at Top Dead center, it doesn't run there. Time it where you want it timed, say 6 degrees btdc. With the crank set there, the dist rotor where you want it pointed, then turn the dist housing till the points just open, lock it down there. You will then be time very close to fire it up to break it in.

11-17-2016, 12:33 AM	#3
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird When watching the intake valve, does it open when it goes down or goes up? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The inner pulley where the timing marks are is part of the hub and shaft where the key-way is, so the timing marks cannot be out of position as related to the key-way. The outer pulley is either riveted or bolted to the inner pulley. I had mine rebuilt by Damper Doctor. The blue tape in my picture is about one position to the left of the bottom clamp (it dropped down and can't be seen in the picture). You can see the other clamp in the picture which will be opposite of the bottom one. The rotor is one position clockwise from the #1 cylinder position (as shown by blue tape). I have been fiddling with the position of the distributor and rotor, and left it one position off to ask this question. One other related problem I have is the oil pump shaft does not stay centered in the opening. I have to use a screwdriver to try and position it. In fact there seems to be some tension on it as I can move it to one side and it springs back over. Could there be a problem with the pump and shaft? Should I remove the oil pump and refit the shaft? It appears to me that if I line the pointer on the TDC timing mark, the piston is down, not up. If I turn the crank 360 degrees to bring the marks back to the pointer, I assume that would be on the exhaust stroke, but the piston is again in the down position. The only

11-17-2016, 02:08 AM	#4
dmsfrr Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Abq, NM Posts: 3,607	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird zuburg; When watching the intake valve, does it open when it goes down or goes up? dmsfrr; The valve is open when it is pressed down and it's spring is compressed. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The inner pulley where the timing marks are is part of the hub and shaft where the key-way is, so the timing marks cannot be out of position as related to the key-way. The outer pulley is either riveted or bolted to the inner pulley. I had mine rebuilt by Damper Doctor. The four individual pieces that make up the sides of the double pulley, with the timing marks, are riveted to a flange on the front of the hub. They can be mounted in any of 6 positions. The blue tape in my picture is about one position to the left of the bottom clamp (it dropped down and can't be seen in the picture). You can see the other clamp in the picture which will be opposite of the bottom one. The rotor is one position clockwise from the #1 cylinder position (as shown by blue tape). I have been fiddling with the position of the distributor and rotor, and left it one position off to ask this question. One other related problem I have is the oil pump shaft does not stay centered in the opening. I have to use a screwdriver to try and position it. In fact there seems to be some tension on it as I can move it to one side and it springs back over. Could there be a problem with the pump and shaft? Should I remove the oil pump and refit the shaft? It could just be gravity, there is nothing to center it except the bottom of the dist shaft. It appears to me that if I line the pointer on the TDC timing mark, the piston is down, not up. If I turn the crank 360 degrees to bring the marks back to the pointer, I assume that would be on the exhaust stroke, but the piston is again in the down position. When the "0" mark on the pulley is lined up with the timing pointer the #1 piston should be at TDC of either the firing stroke or the exhaust stroke, not down at all. I think the crank pulley was put together out of position. You could re-mark the pulley correctly when the #1 piston is actually at TDC, or return it to Damper Dr. I'll try to test fit the crank pulleys I have and see what happens... .

11-17-2016, 08:09 AM	#5
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird Thank you, this is all very helpful. I can now see the flange and how the pulley is attached. I suspect you are right about the pulleys not being positioned properly. I did remove the bolts and the outside pulley once but can't remember why. I bet Damper Doctor did not notice I screwed it up. One would hope they would have found the timing marks and ensured it was put together correctly. It would also have been nice if they had put white paint on the marks. It costs so much to ship the damper, I think I can reposition the pulleys. If I set the engine to close to TDC, then reposition the pulleys to the closest position, then I should be able to find exact TDC using the marks.

11-17-2016, 08:56 PM	#8
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,982	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird You are checking all this on the right (passenger) side of the engine? Just checking as #1 is on the right side of the engine, front cylinder. __________________ 48 Ford Conv 56 Tbird 54 Ford Victoria

11-17-2016, 10:57 PM	#10
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird As I mentioned before, my pulleys were bolted together instead of riveted. I was surprised Damper Doctor didn't put it back together with rivets. I was able to remove the bolts and re-position them to line the timing marks where they should be. My only problem now is getting the rotor to line up on the #1 position on the distributor. I'm one position to the left (counter-clockwise) off. Is that advanced? Will I eventually want it advanced that much anyway? I tried to re-position it, but it kept wanting to mate with the crank shaft gear in that position.

11-27-2016, 08:46 PM	#15
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird Well, I have been doing the trial and error approach for awhile. Turning the oil pump shaft a little, and trying again. Anytime I get the distributor all the way down, it moves to be one position off on the distributor. I'm only doing this to ensure I can get it fitted. Once I install the engine into the car, I will have to prime the engine with oil using the oil pump shaft and re-install the distributor. I installed a new oil pump and shaft and may have installed it upside down. I assume it is not worth dropping the oil pump and re-installing the shaft right side up? Engine is still on an engine stand. Worst case, if I can't get the distributor where I want it, is it OK to just mark the connector that is one position to the left of the one marked for #1 cyl, and attach the #1 spark plug wire to that, and the rest of the wires in the right order from there?

11-27-2016, 09:26 PM	#16
Y-Blockhead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 5,849	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird You should be able to tell without pulling it. If it looks pointed then it is in correctly. If it looks rounded off then it is upside down. If you put the clip at the top of the shaft where it should be you can pull it out the top. Sounds to me like your not turning the distributor back far enough to engage the next tooth on the cam. Try turning it a little farther than it looks like you need to. As the gears mesh, the shaft will turn. Remember there are 14 teeth on the gear. That means you will have to turn it ~25° to mesh the next tooth. Also may I suggest you prime the engine before you install the engine. Make sure you get oil up the the rockers. Then install the distributor.

11-27-2016, 09:31 PM	#17
miker98038 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,397	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird Now is the time to get everything right, especially the oil pump shaft. Much easier out of the car, and if you have to pull the dizzy again, it'll be worth it. Yes, you can install the wires in order. Just make sure the dizzy will rotate to the correct timing position without the vacuum can hitting something first. That's a common problem, but maybe at 2 teeth off, I can't remember. Second, I normally prime the motor on the engine stand, which makes it easy to rotate the motor while priming. That allows filling all the passages, rod bearings, and verifying oil to the rockers. If your lifting arrangement allows, put it in with the dizzy in too. Edit: Y-Blockhead got in while I was typing. I'm not disagreeing with him.

11-28-2016, 12:17 AM	#18
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird Regarding the clip at the top of the shaft: I thought the instructions said to put the clip on the shaft, then feed it up through the top of the oil pump? The purpose of the clip was to prevent the shaft from coming out of the oil pump when removing the distributor. Is this wrong?

11-28-2016, 12:25 AM	#19
zuburg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 332	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird I was planning to install the engine before priming the oil because when we pulled the engine the oil filter was very close to the drive shaft and we removed the filter to give us plenty if room. I'm glad to hear you can prime the oil prior to installing the engine. I was planning on using a drill to turn the oil pump to get the oil to the rockers. Am I supposed to also turn the crank to help distribute the oil? If so, how much should I turn the crank?

11-28-2016, 01:22 AM	#20
flatrod Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 291	Re: Having trouble aligning TDC with timing marks on 1956 Tbird I would prime on the stand as well. With a grooved cam center journal you should not have to turn the crank while priming. As for installing the dist, I get it where I want it, if the pump does not line up I just hold a little downward pressure on the dist and turn the crank by hand till it drops in. (Assuming you have the pointed end up.) Then go back and check to make sure it is still timed where you want it. Also don't time it at Top Dead center, it doesn't run there. Time it where you want it timed, say 6 degrees btdc. With the crank set there, the dist rotor where you want it pointed, then turn the dist housing till the points just open, lock it down there. You will then be time very close to fire it up to break it in.