Setting Piston Rings in Cylinders

[JAKEFORD]

When I was very active in rebuilding engines I always set the rings in the bores according to a diagram in the old "Honest Charlie" Catalog from the early 60's.

This method placed the gap on the low load side and worked pretty good for me.

Now after my "shop Organization" I can't find the information. Would anyone have a copy?

[Ronnie]

The rings rotate in the bore after installation and are going to rotate from there. The starting position will change from installation.

R

[34PKUP]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

The rings rotate in the bore after installation and are going to rotate from there. The starting position will change from installation.

R

If what you say is a fact, then why do all the ring manufacturers that I have seen provide a ring installation diagram with their rings?

[JAKEFORD]

I have taken a few engines apart that I rebuilt. This was after several thousands of miles and when I checked the gap positions they were spot on to their original settings. Maybe rotation is a function of bore taper? The engines that I rebuilt had very little taper.

I used the method in this catalog almost from engine no 1 and never had any problems. Break in was fast and oil consumption was low. One of the last engines was a 292 Ford and drove it 6000 miles after rebuild on a long road trip. All the engine had was new rings and a valve job and performed well.

[flatheadmurre]

If they wouldnt rotate why are 2-strokers pinned in the ringgroves...

[Binx]

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I can't remember where I stole this to give credit:

A flathead V8 engine crankshaft rotates clockwise when viewed from the
front of the engine. Then the thrust side on all 4 piston heads on the drivers
side of the engine will be the side of the piston head furthest from the block’s
intake manifold surface. The thrust side on all 4 piston heads on the passengers
side of the engine will be the side of the piston head closest to the block’s
intake manifold surface.
Having determined the piston thrust, the ring gaps are positioned as
follows. Starting with the bottom ring........
(1) Oil ring expanders: This goes on first and the ends of the expanders are
not critical in location. Position as you will.
(2) Oil ring:
On 3 ring pistons, the gap is to be located at the center of the
opposite side of the piston thrust.
On 4 ring pistons, position the gap of the two oil rings 45 degrees
fore and aft of the center of the opposite side of the piston thrust.
(3) Oil ring segments (2 per oil ring):
On 3 ring pistons, the gaps are to be located ½" from the oil ring
gap. One fore and one aft.
On 4 ring pistons, the gaps are to be located ½" from the their oil
expander ring gap. Each oil ring will have it’s two segment rings located fore
and aft of it’s gap. Also see the following section SEGMENTED OIL RINGS.
(4) Bottom compression ring: Gap to be located directly over the wrist pin
towards the front of the engine.
(5) Top compression ring: Gap to be located directly over the wrist pin
towards the rear of the engine.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

If they wouldnt rotate why are 2-strokers pinned in the ringgroves...

Because in a 2 stroke its a safety issue in order to insure that the rings don't rotate and align the gap with one of the sidewall ports which would be disastrous.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Jake, we start by placing the oil expander ring with the gap above the wrist pin, then we place the 1st rail 45* to that gap, place the 2nd rail 180* out to the first gap.

Place the 2nd ring 90* to either oil rail gap and the 1st ring 180* to that 2nd one.

If you are using a 4 ring platform with (2) 1 piece oil rings simply place them 180* apart, 45* from the wrist pin.

With respect to this issue there really isn't any "etched-in-stone" rules, you generally do what has worked in the past!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Important note however, before you put any ring in the bore take a small "pocket-stone" and debur the outer corners of all the rings. While assembling the unit there should be almost no visible ring marks on the fresh bores.

[JAKEFORD]

It bother me why I can't find my diagram. Never re-organize your shop. Leave it alone. It may seem messy but at least you can find things.

But I am going to make the supreme effort and find it and compare it to what has been suggested. I don't think we are too far apart. I will post it when I get it.

I remember the gap was on the low thrust side but was skewed slightly to account for the 4 rings. But it worked well. Old Charlie knew flatheads!

[scooder]

Jake,
Way to set rings the Honest Charly way.
Top ring gaps on passenger side (rights side) of bore, both bottom rings on drivers side (left side)
The claims,
More horsepower, better oil control, reduces skirt drag, quicker break in, reduces wear. Try it and thank Ole Honest hisself.
From 1965 Honest charley catalog.
That's all quoted from the catalog.
Gota say,
A rebuilt engine should have no bore taper, a re ringed engine isn,t a rebuild, it's a bit of a freshen up.
Martin.

[JAKEFORD]

You are 100% right!

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by 34PKUP

If what you say is a fact, then why do all the ring manufacturers that I have seen provide a ring installation diagram with their rings?

That is a fact they rotate. They say to position the rings as to not have the gaps lined up on installation.

http://www.aera.org/technical-articl...ing-technology ring rotation speed.

R

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

If they wouldnt rotate why are 2-strokers pinned in the ringgroves...

You are absolutely correct.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2006...nder-finishes/ read paragraph on crosshatch.


https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/...g-installation

Here is the ring installation guide they have been in the ring business for 100+ years

R

[JWL]

Yes the rings rotate in all manners of positions during use. I have studied this subject rather extensively during dyno testing. I do make the initial installation with the end gaps well separated. But they move so much it probably doesn't matter.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I once read some esoterica on souping up Hudson and Terraplane "ironing-board eights"
(You thought flathead Ford people were crazy??). These things used pinned rings, and the alleged explanation is that due to ancient and defective design of the cooling system inherited from even older Essex designs, the cylinders ran very oval...and pinning the rings was to get them to stay in place until they wore to oval! Folklore, who knows about Hudson.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

I once read some esoterica on souping up Hudson and Terraplane "ironing-board eights"
(You thought flathead Ford people were crazy??). These things used pinned rings, and the alleged explanation is that due to ancient and defective design of the cooling system inherited from even older Essex designs, the cylinders ran very oval...and pinning the rings was to get them to stay in place until they wore to oval! Folklore, who knows about Hudson.

Good info Bruce.

In fact if you take an engine apart and have a issue where the gaps are all lined up it is because the bore is so out of round that the rings rotate until the gaps come to the largest part of the radius and ring tension won't allow any more rotation and eventually they all line up together. This has been seen on many occasions.

R

[BillM]

Here you go:

[Capt Kirk]

Ronnie,
I rebuild several Jeep 4.0 engines each year. The cores I get are all worn out and high mile. It's not uncommon for me to find ring gaps on the old pistons aligned within 1/4" of each other. I'd be surprised if the factory installed them in this location but I've seen stranger things from the factory.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Ronnie,
I rebuild several Jeep 4.0 engines each year. The cores I get are all worn out and high mile. It's not uncommon for me to find ring gaps on the old pistons aligned within 1/4" of each other. I'd be surprised if the factory installed them in this location but I've seen stranger things from the factory.

Correct the bores are worn out of round.
They would not be that way from the new state. They won't rotate any more when at that stage.

R

[40 Deluxe]

Now seems a good time to repeat the ancient myth that an engine won't start/run if the ring gaps are all lined up! It would be interesting to know what bar that story was concocted in!