The Ford Barn

Dick Carne · 01-07-2013, 02:00 PM

Recently there has been some discussion bandied about with some of the folks in our local MARC Region about taking on a joint MARC/MAFCA club status. Opinions on both sides of the issue have come to light, and I suppose depending on either advocates' preferences, arguably good reasons to support either or both positions have been made. So essentially my questions are these:

(1) What have other groups that have elected to pursue such a dual affinity found to be the "pro's" and conversely, the "con's" of such a dual relationship? and

(2) Of those that may have taken this course, would you consider doing it again?

Thanks in advance for sharing any thoughts and experiences that may come to light.

Dick

ctlikon0712 · 01-07-2013, 03:24 PM

Local A owners in my area have looked into forming a club and then with that a national affiliation. We had the same thought/questions, so I am interested as well.
Mostly what I got out of the discussions was that MARC was more east coast and MAFCA was more West. Oh and MARC seemed more biases towards finer point restorations and MAFCA less so as evidenced by their show judging system, especially the touring classes.

Steve Wastler · 01-07-2013, 03:54 PM

One local I belong to is members of both, I am not so active, so I don't know your answers, but here is a link, http://www.gwcmodela.org/ lots of contacts listed under officers.

Clem, can you answer any of this?

frank55a · 01-07-2013, 04:38 PM

From a local club stand point, there probably is not much difference. Both support the Model A hobby.

Both MARC and MAFCA have very similar activities from a national standpoint. They both use the same judging standards to judge fine point cars. MAFCA uses the fine point judging standards to judge Touring Class cars. While MARC also has Touring Class Judging at their National summer meets, they use their own Touring Class Judging Standards which are not nearly as critical as MAFCA's Touring Class or either clubs fine point systems. Also MARC's Touring Class judging is performed by the participants.

Local affiliation is more MAFCA west and MARC is more east.

Richard Wilson · 01-07-2013, 04:40 PM

My experience was with the local club. When the club was about 5 years old and had about 25 families we voted to join the MARC national club for their club insurance. About half of the members quit rather than pay the additional MARC dues. If we had joined MAFCA also we would have lost the other half.

Need to add that I am a member of both MARC, 24 years, and MAFCA, 25 years. Personally, I see this as one way of giving back to the hobby.

msmaron · 01-07-2013, 05:09 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Turley

Actually, both national clubs require 100% membership from a Chapter / Region. Are all of your local club members willing to join both national clubs? Current membership cost is $40 MAFCA plus $38 MARC plus $? local club dues. That is about $100 +/- per year.

Sorry Don that is not true, in fact 100% False, We are a dual club and love it.. We became a dual club when MARC began to take away all the insurance from selected events and clubs. Our swap which is in its 29th year was as of last year not insured by MARC< they had refused to issue a cert, MAFCA immediately did with out any question and one of the issues upon joining them was did the members have to join the National and the answer... NOT AT ALL...hence our bylaws also reflect that. We are starting to do more events with both clubs and will continue to do so, It is a great idea for everyone large and small and with the insurance issues with MARC for us it was a no brainier, more events, more people, more new members. Success all around in our opinion.

Jim/GA · 01-07-2013, 06:19 PM

The Greater Houston Model A Restorers Club is both a MAFCA and a MARC region. We require officers to be members of both national clubs, but only require members to belong to one or the other (but we encourage belonging to both). We like having the full range of meets, tours, etc. to choose from. Two really nice magazines to look through. Both clubs have great people (and there is a lot of overlap), so where is the downside?

Chris in WNC · 01-07-2013, 06:24 PM

I helped found the Jacksonville Model As, chartered by both MARC & MAFCA.

national MARC membership is mandatory for all club
members,
national MAFCA membership is only required for "officers" (actually board of directors)......

redmodelt · 01-07-2013, 09:10 PM

Why not just form a LLC and not belong to ether club. My understanding of the insurance provided by the national clubs is it only covers the club not the individual members if there is an accident. If you are involved in an accident when on a tour you the individual involved needs to have insurance because you are responsible for damages. If you hold or have an event, don't you have to provide separate insurance anyway, payed for by your club?

glenn in camino · 01-07-2013, 10:12 PM

I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

Tom Endy · 01-07-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

I am with Glenn on this one. I believe as the current generation of Model A enthusiasts pass on, membership in both national clubs will decline and union of the two clubs will likely happen.

About 25 years ago when I joined our club, and MAFCA, there was a measure on the MAFCA ballot to change the by-laws to remove the requirement that members of a local chapter be required to also be members of MAFCA.

I asked one of the MAFCA board members at a meet why they were proposing such a change. Did they not want all chapter members to be MAFCA members as well?

The answer I received I thought was very common sence. The reason for the change was because it was a bylaw that was not only ignored, but it was unenforceable. Kind of like national prohibition. A local club is not going to kick a member out because they refuse to join MAFCA. MAFCA is not going to revoke a charter because there is a rumor that some of their members are not MAFCA members. The by law was changed. Of course local clubs should encourage their members to join the national affiliation, but that is far as it goes.

Not too long ago I believe MAFCA was proposing to put the by law back into affect. I don't know if they did or not, but if they did it will still be ignored and unenforceable.

Tom Endy

Steve Plucker · 01-07-2013, 11:14 PM

Did Fordbarn not conduct a survey on this very fact at one time?

I know the results do not reflect the entire membership of MARC and MAFCA but it sure would be interesting if both clubs would pose the question next time they send out voting ballots.

I to am with Glenn.

Pluck

Mike V. Florida · 01-07-2013, 11:23 PM

We went throught this, member of MARC national club or not, last April.
MARC has regions and you can't be a member of the region without being a member of MARC. Just like you can't be a member of the Kiwanis club of Fort Lauderdale without being a member of Kiwanis International.

A reason for the MARC national membership is to be covered by their liability insurance. If you are on a club trip, for example, and some kid slides down your fender and cuts themselves on the trim of your running boards you will be defended in a lawsuit under the MARC insurance as a member. If you are not a national member and you are just traveling with the group and the same thing happens, it's on you.

Here are some of the actual questions I asked MARC and the answers I received back from the vice president.

As a club wedrive out cars together to lunch, a museum, etc. Do I have any coverage from the national club?
Yes, because you're participating in a MARC activity, MARC's insurance would defend any MARC members against a legal suit of liability.

If we do something as a club and a non member comes along, does it void our coverage or is just the non member that is not covered?

No it does not void coverage, However, MARC's insurance has no obligation to defend a non-MARC person.

When it comes to MAFCA and their insurance I don't know. If you are not a member of the national club are you covered under the national insurance?

Back to the original question.To partake in the national tours, meets and conventions you need to be a member of the national club that is hosting, so Pros, members have additional venues to see and/show their cars, assist in the special programs the each have, and an additional magazine.

Cons, you have to pay two sets of dues to receive all the pros of both national clubs.

MVal · 01-08-2013, 12:40 AM

I would have to question the accuracy of MARC's Vp reply to Mike V's question above. While I am more familar with MAFCA's insurance than MARC's, I can't believe MARC's insurance covers the INDIVIDUAL members of the club while on a tour. My understanding has always been that the national insurance covers the CLUB, not the individual members and the members have to have their own personal car insurance. So if on tour and an individual has a wreck, his own personal insurance will come into play. Should the other party decide that including the club in his/her suit because if there was no tour the accident wouldn't have happened, he/she will also name the club in the suit and that will cause the national club's insurance to come into play to defend the CLUB only. This is also called "going for the deepest pockets". Regardless, every state requires all drivers to have their own personal insurance on their cars.

As a aside, try to get MARC's club insurance coverage in California--my understanding is that it is unavailable whether or not you have 100% MARC membership!! But that is for another thread!!

Mike V. Florida · 01-08-2013, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVal

I would have to question the accuracy of MARC's Vp reply to Mike V's question above. While I am more familar with MAFCA's insurance than MARC's, I can't believe MARC's insurance covers the INDIVIDUAL members of the club while on a tour. My understanding has always been that the national insurance covers the CLUB, not the individual members and the members have to have their own personal car insurance. So if on tour and an individual has a wreck, his own personal insurance will come into play. Should the other party decide that including the club in his/her suit because if there was no tour the accident wouldn't have happened, he/she will also name the club in the suit and that will cause the national club's insurance to come into play to defend the CLUB only. This is also called "going for the deepest pockets". Regardless, every state requires all drivers to have their own personal insurance on their cars.

As a aside, try to get MARC's club insurance coverage in California--my understanding is that it is unavailable whether or not you have 100% MARC membership!! But that is for another thread!!

That is correct! A moving accident that results in liability litigation will not be defended by MARC's insurance carrier for the member. It WILL protect the "mother" club and it's officers. That is why events such as parades and timed events are not covered.

Marco Tahtaras · 01-08-2013, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

This is not directed at you or anyone else but just the prospect. I've been hearing the same thing for about 38 years. When I was 18 years old with very little money in my pockets I joined BOTH MAFCA and MARC. Why? Simply because I wanted to receive TWO different magazines, the option of more/different national meets, etc. The bottom line was OPTIONS! I value those options and would be seriously unhappy to lose that.

My big question is why folks actually desire that type of change. What exactly is the gain that would benefit me?

Sorry for helping to take this off-topic.

Bob-A · 01-08-2013, 04:30 AM

I also like the idea of one national "A" club. But like what has been said: "Egos.........".

Marco I didn't know you where part of the "Me" generation?.....

Bob-A

Fred · 01-08-2013, 10:50 AM

I agree with Marco 100%...I very much enjoy each clubs magazine, and while in Viet Nan in 1965, 67, & 69 was always looking to get them, even though most were beat up a bit and a month or so late !! They made for good reading, and still do.. P.S. Still have them !!..

CarlG · 01-08-2013, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

... I joined BOTH MAFCA and MARC. Why? Simply because I wanted to receive TWO different magazines ...

Me too!

John LaVoy · 01-08-2013, 11:03 AM

I am in agreement that some how we should establish a one club national. The duplication of effort is expensive and if we were to pool the resources we could reduce costs and efforts. MAFCA has around 12-14,000 members, MARC has around 8-10,000. Of course I along with many people belong to both clubs so the total member ship would be less than a combination of the two.

MAFCA is doing more things across the country now, the last banquet was in SC and the national tour is starting in VA and ending in TN. MARC did a meet in San Diego a couple of years ago so they are both trying to maintain some semblance of a "national" presence.

But if you merged the two clubs we get a Restorer or News every month, just slide the publication of one of the magazines by a month from the other. There would be the need for only one insurance policy, we could eliminate one office staff and save the expense.

Let me float an idea. Why not combine the two, headquarter it at The Gilmore and turn over the museum operation to the new club? That should stir up some comments!

Jerry Parr WI · 01-08-2013, 11:16 AM

I agree with Marco also. Since a major portion of the club's dues go to the magazine publication a combined club would need to eliminate one magazine or substantially increase dues. This eliminates the only advantage I have ever heard promoted, the reduction of dues. No financial gain and a potential magazine loss as I see it.

Dick Carne · 01-08-2013, 02:38 PM

A sincere "thanks" to everyone that has responded, and to anyone who may respond as well going forward. I have been around Model A's and MARC (at that time) since the early 1960's as a teenager, and during that time I have seen the ebb and flow of a resurgence by first one and then the other club (I've also served a MARC Regional Director and a MAFCA Chapter President).

When we were reviewing the proponents of one affiliation vs. the other in determining the future course for our local Region several years back, we were finally persuaded more by the insurance/liabilty coverage afforded at that time by the MARC organization. That appears to have changed since that time (and I also understand the limitation of coverage extending only to the Club itself - we have resolved to this point to keep dues lower than most, so there is not really a "deep pocket" from a club treasury standpoint to entice a prospective plaintiff to pursue the Club as a potential co-defendant, but in that event, and under the single affiliation we currently have, then to pick up with the "other" charter would allow the group to continue virtually unscathed by any litigation).

Insurance issues aside, I believe that the motivation behind the current "push" to consider a dual affiliation is due largely to an interest in being able to incorporate into the local Club's newsletter and web-page those publication resources available through both national clubs, with noted credits given of course. However, I remain mindful of the dual costs to affiliate with both national clubs in that event (if only for Directors themselves), but that said, its sometimes difficult enough to find folks willing to serve in a Board capacity without adding an additional cost to that challenge, especially for folks on fixed incomes and otherwise moderate incomes.

Again, thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.

Dick

frank55a · 01-08-2013, 03:33 PM

I have read what some people have written about the insurance issue regarding both clubs. This whole issue came about a number of years ago as result of a large claim against one of the National club's liability policy due to an event that happened at a swap meet sponsored by one of their affiliated local clubs. As a result one of the national clubs insurance rates sky rocketed. The other club took actions to minimize the exposure of their local clubs, members and the national from such an event.

A few specific individuals have an axe to grind with one of the national clubs. I suggest if you are interested in how the policy is administrated, go to both clubs web sites and read for yourself their policy regarding what is covered, who is covered, what is not covered, and what is considered "high risk". I think you will find the wording on both clubs' web sites is almost identical.

Within both clubs, members must have their own auto insurance policy. Specifically, auto accidents are not covered by either national club's general liability policy.

Mike V. Florida · 01-08-2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Carne

... and I also understand the limitation of coverage extending only to the Club itself -

Not true, see my post.

MikeK · 01-08-2013, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Why not just form a LLC and not belong to ether club. My understanding of the insurance provided by the national clubs is it only covers the club not the individual members if there is an accident. If you are involved in an accident when on a tour you the individual involved needs to have insurance because you are responsible for damages. If you hold or have an event, don't you have to provide separate insurance anyway, payed for by your club?

No. That's the point. It's easy to contact MAFCA and get a certificate of insurance covering your specific club event. MARC has become reluctant to do so. If you have several high-profile events a year buying your own event insurance could bankrupt a club.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 01-08-2013, 10:17 PM

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Dog here,
Bill read me all the posts!! Sounds like it would be as confusing as bringing BORDER COLLIES to compete at an ALL RAT TERRIER SHOW! First, we would disagree on TREATS,----Mice VS Mutton, then everything would slow down & WAIT while they got brushed & trimmed, GOSH! hair everywhere! (Us Ratters are self grooming, self cleaning, just like your OVEN!) What a confusing mess that would be! Isn't there an old saying, like, "TOO MANY HANDS IN THE POT SPOILS THE SOUP!???? Never mind, I think something was lost in the translation from People talk to Dog Latin. (Read this to YOUR dog & get his take on it!) Buster T.

redmodelt · 01-09-2013, 01:32 AM

"If you have several high-profile events a year buying your own event insurance could bankrupt a club."
If your club in not a member of one of the national clubs, except for tours and maybe a swap meet what high-profile event(s) would you be holding?
__________________

MikeK · 01-09-2013, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redmodelt

If your club in not a member of one of the national clubs, except for tours and maybe a swap meet what high-profile event(s) would you be holding?

You answered your own question. For a small club, two should do it. Liability insurance for one public swap-$1,500. One picnic with guests on public property-$1,200. 40 club members? OK, everybody cough up $67.50 in addition to your dues!

redmodelt · 01-09-2013, 11:45 AM

If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question. I can see the swap meet liability but not sure about the picnic, guess because the only time we eat is if we are on a tour or spring and fall banquets as a group. I would have to ask the powers to be if we get insurance for are spring and fall banquets or when we stop at a public park to eat lunch. As a member of one of the sponsoring clubs of the Portland Swap Meet the insurance cost does not come up in the budget because the clubs that sponsor it formed a corp. that runs the meet.

MVal · 01-09-2013, 03:06 PM

Frank 55's comment above that "neither national club's insurance covers an auto accident" isn't true. MAFCA is currently involved in a lawsuit which resulted from an auto accident during the Grand tour of a meet in central CA. The driver of the A died and his family is suing the local club, region and MAFCA. The A was stopped to make a left turn and another vehicle coming the other way veered into his lane and hit the A headon. Remember the policy is a general liability and the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!

Jordan · 01-09-2013, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVal

Frank 55's comment above that "neither national club's insurance covers an auto accident" isn't true. MAFCA is currently involved in a lawsuit which resulted from an auto accident during the Grand tour of a meet in central CA. The driver of the A died and his family is suing the local club, region and MAFCA. The A was stopped to make a left turn and another vehicle coming the other way veered into his lane and hit the A headon. Remember the policy is a general liability and the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!

I would be interested to hear the outcome of this law suite. It's sad that the family is going after the clubs when really the family should be going after the driver of the other vehicle.

frank55a · 01-09-2013, 06:06 PM

I stand by what I wrote about neither clubs General liability insurance policy not covering automobile related events i.e., auto accidents.

Coverage per MAFCA's web site:
General liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage available to MAFCA.

Coverage per MARC's web site:
General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage available to MARC Directors, staff and MARC members of MARC Regions or Special Interest Groups located in the United States and Canada.

MVAL is also partiallycorrect in that "the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!" Specifically, anyone can sue just about anyone for just about any reason, but obtaining a favorable judgment may be another story. Obtaining a judgment that would require MAFCA's insurance company to pay, may be another story when they (MAFCA and as I understand their insurance company) say the liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage.

I think we would all like to know more about this accident and the outcome. If the outcome of this legal action results in a judicial ruling against MAFCA and the insurance company has to pay, then from what I heard resulting from their past big claim there will be some really big changes made with respect to MAFCA's insurance coverage. We could speculate what the impact would be to MAFCA, the MAFCA Chapters, and MAFCA membership, but that is premature.

I hate to sound negative but the reality is the next potential claim is just around the corner. This is why it is so important for both national clubs and all Chapters and Regions to take whatever steps they must to protect themselves and mitigate their exposure.

denis4x4 · 01-09-2013, 11:29 PM

For what it's worth, a number of automotive oriented clubs in the four corners area formed a club council and contract with a broker to provide insurance for shows, swap meets, etc. The costs were spread over a number of clubs and often times the municipality will allow a club to "piggy back" on the city's policy. Having run some major 4x4 events with national media coverage, I never found inurance to be a problem.

Mike V. Florida · 01-10-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank55a

I stand by what I wrote about neither clubs General liability insurance policy not covering automobile related events i.e., auto accidents.

Coverage per MAFCA's web site:
General liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage available to MAFCA.

Coverage per MARC's web site:
General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage available to MARC Directors, staff and MARC members of MARC Regions or Special Interest Groups located in the United States and Canada.

MVAL is also partiallycorrect in that "the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!" Specifically, anyone can sue just about anyone for just about any reason, but obtaining a favorable judgment may be another story. Obtaining a judgment that would require MAFCA's insurance company to pay, may be another story when they (MAFCA and as I understand their insurance company) say the liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage.

I think we would all like to know more about this accident and the outcome. If the outcome of this legal action results in a judicial ruling against MAFCA and the insurance company has to pay, then from what I heard resulting from their past big claim there will be some really big changes made with respect to MAFCA's insurance coverage. We could speculate what the impact would be to MAFCA, the MAFCA Chapters, and MAFCA membership, but that is premature.

I hate to sound negative but the reality is the next potential claim is just around the corner. This is why it is so important for both national clubs and all Chapters and Regions to take whatever steps they must to protect themselves and mitigate their exposure.

My apologies to you if I was not clear. You are right about claims when the A is in motion. I was speaking about the parking of the cars at displays, lunches, points of interest, and the like. Again I'm sorry if my answers were not clear.

frank55a · 01-10-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

My apologies to you if I was not clear. You are right about claims when the A is in motion. I was speaking about the parking of the cars at displays, lunches, points of interest, and the like. Again I'm sorry if my answers were not clear.

Mike, you are correct and I agree! I was not referring to what you wrote.

I was referring to what MVal wrote when he said that I was wrong, and that the policy does cover auto accident claims. Both national clubs web site are clear that the General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage. This has been explained many times as it does not cover moving auto accidents, such as what MVal described.

As tragic as it was, as I understand that is not within the scope of the General Liability coverage of either club. Without knowing any details, the family may be trying to sue the Chapter and MAFCA, and perhaps the insurance company is only involve to the extent of providing legal counsel for the suite. I think we all would like to know more about this suite/claim and the outcome.

Chris in WNC · 01-10-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan

the family should be going after the driver of the other vehicle.

following the money.......
the family and/or their attorneys are covering all bases in case any of the included entities has any insurance or assets. it is very likely the person that caused the accident has neither.
whether you agree or not, that's the world we live in now.

Mike V. Florida · 01-10-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

following the money.......
the family and/or their attorneys are covering all bases in case any of the included entities has any insurasnce or assets. it is very likely the person that caused the accident has neither.
whether you agree or not, that's the world we live in now.

Other countries must wonder what kind of country we live in when they read about this stuff. I had a neighbor that was a passenger in a car that was hit and driver of the car that hit him and sent him to the hospital where he will never be the same due to head injuries, named him in a law suit. While thrown out he still had to hire (and pay) a lawyer do defend himself.

CarlG · 01-10-2013, 12:48 PM

Been going on for a long time!

When I was 18 years old, an "old man" (old to me at the time anyway) ran a red light coming out of a shopping center and I T-Boned him (passenger side of the car). It was just after dark, he was "legally blind", driving without a license , no insurance (even though he was an insurance broker), received a citation, etc, etc.

He sued MY insurance co -- and they settled out of court, paid for his car and medical bills and lord knows what else. This subsequently went on MY record, despite all my objections to the contrary. And, I had to fix my car at my own expense! (I only had liability -- cheap car, college student, etc.)

steve s · 01-10-2013, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

I agree, Glenn.

It's pretty obvious that given shared judging standards and joint meets, and the very need for a thread such as this one in the first place, common ground has already been found--love of Model A's.

Wouldn't it be grand if there were a grass-roots demand for an election on whether or not to merge?

Steve

Fred · 01-10-2013, 01:10 PM

It will NOT work !! Do you realize the amount people would quit, even before the ink was dry ??..

CarlG · 01-10-2013, 01:15 PM

Wasn't there a pole on here some time back that showed that the majority belonged to both clubs?

Fred · 01-10-2013, 02:01 PM

YUP, And who liked which one & why , Etc-Etc..

Mike V. Florida · 01-10-2013, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

YUP, And who liked which one & why , Etc-Etc..

Here are the links for the polls that Fred mentions,

Should MAFCA & MARC Merge?

What Club are you a member of from Fordbarn?

What Club are you a member of from Bob Johnsons site.

Here is a thread

redmodelt · 01-10-2013, 09:32 PM

There may come a point where membership in both gets so low that they will have to merge to survive.

01-07-2013, 02:00 PM	#1
Dick Carne Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fayetteville, Georgia Posts: 467	Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Recently there has been some discussion bandied about with some of the folks in our local MARC Region about taking on a joint MARC/MAFCA club status. Opinions on both sides of the issue have come to light, and I suppose depending on either advocates' preferences, arguably good reasons to support either or both positions have been made. So essentially my questions are these: (1) What have other groups that have elected to pursue such a dual affinity found to be the "pro's" and conversely, the "con's" of such a dual relationship? and (2) Of those that may have taken this course, would you consider doing it again? Thanks in advance for sharing any thoughts and experiences that may come to light. Dick

01-07-2013, 03:24 PM	#2
ctlikon0712 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Cocoa, Florida Posts: 1,609	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Local A owners in my area have looked into forming a club and then with that a national affiliation. We had the same thought/questions, so I am interested as well. Mostly what I got out of the discussions was that MARC was more east coast and MAFCA was more West. Oh and MARC seemed more biases towards finer point restorations and MAFCA less so as evidenced by their show judging system, especially the touring classes. __________________ Wanted: Simmons Super Power Head Craig Likon 1931 150B

01-07-2013, 03:54 PM	#3
Steve Wastler Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,987	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs One local I belong to is members of both, I am not so active, so I don't know your answers, but here is a link, http://www.gwcmodela.org/ lots of contacts listed under officers. Clem, can you answer any of this?

01-07-2013, 04:38 PM	#4
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs From a local club stand point, there probably is not much difference. Both support the Model A hobby. Both MARC and MAFCA have very similar activities from a national standpoint. They both use the same judging standards to judge fine point cars. MAFCA uses the fine point judging standards to judge Touring Class cars. While MARC also has Touring Class Judging at their National summer meets, they use their own Touring Class Judging Standards which are not nearly as critical as MAFCA's Touring Class or either clubs fine point systems. Also MARC's Touring Class judging is performed by the participants. Local affiliation is more MAFCA west and MARC is more east.

01-07-2013, 04:40 PM	#5
Richard Wilson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 908	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs My experience was with the local club. When the club was about 5 years old and had about 25 families we voted to join the MARC national club for their club insurance. About half of the members quit rather than pay the additional MARC dues. If we had joined MAFCA also we would have lost the other half. Need to add that I am a member of both MARC, 24 years, and MAFCA, 25 years. Personally, I see this as one way of giving back to the hobby. Last edited by Richard Wilson; 01-08-2013 at 08:12 AM.

01-07-2013, 06:19 PM	#7
Jim/GA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Young Harris, GA Posts: 1,821	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs The Greater Houston Model A Restorers Club is both a MAFCA and a MARC region. We require officers to be members of both national clubs, but only require members to belong to one or the other (but we encourage belonging to both). We like having the full range of meets, tours, etc. to choose from. Two really nice magazines to look through. Both clubs have great people (and there is a lot of overlap), so where is the downside? __________________ Jim Cannon Former MAFCA Technical Director "Have a Model A day!"

01-07-2013, 06:24 PM	#8
Chris in WNC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spruce Pine, NC Posts: 1,458	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I helped found the Jacksonville Model As, chartered by both MARC & MAFCA. national MARC membership is mandatory for all club members, national MAFCA membership is only required for "officers" (actually board of directors)...... __________________ our next Model A is out there in the unknown......

01-07-2013, 09:10 PM	#9
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Why not just form a LLC and not belong to ether club. My understanding of the insurance provided by the national clubs is it only covers the club not the individual members if there is an accident. If you are involved in an accident when on a tour you the individual involved needs to have insurance because you are responsible for damages. If you hold or have an event, don't you have to provide separate insurance anyway, payed for by your club?

01-07-2013, 10:12 PM	#10
glenn in camino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camino, CA. Posts: 3,086	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

01-07-2013, 11:14 PM	#12
Steve Plucker BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Walla Walla, Washington USA Posts: 6,066	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Did Fordbarn not conduct a survey on this very fact at one time? I know the results do not reflect the entire membership of MARC and MAFCA but it sure would be interesting if both clubs would pose the question next time they send out voting ballots. I to am with Glenn. Pluck

01-07-2013, 11:23 PM	#13
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs We went throught this, member of MARC national club or not, last April. MARC has regions and you can't be a member of the region without being a member of MARC. Just like you can't be a member of the Kiwanis club of Fort Lauderdale without being a member of Kiwanis International. A reason for the MARC national membership is to be covered by their liability insurance. If you are on a club trip, for example, and some kid slides down your fender and cuts themselves on the trim of your running boards you will be defended in a lawsuit under the MARC insurance as a member. If you are not a national member and you are just traveling with the group and the same thing happens, it's on you. Here are some of the actual questions I asked MARC and the answers I received back from the vice president. As a club wedrive out cars together to lunch, a museum, etc. Do I have any coverage from the national club? Yes, because you're participating in a MARC activity, MARC's insurance would defend any MARC members against a legal suit of liability. If we do something as a club and a non member comes along, does it void our coverage or is just the non member that is not covered? No it does not void coverage, However, MARC's insurance has no obligation to defend a non-MARC person. When it comes to MAFCA and their insurance I don't know. If you are not a member of the national club are you covered under the national insurance? Back to the original question.To partake in the national tours, meets and conventions you need to be a member of the national club that is hosting, so Pros, members have additional venues to see and/show their cars, assist in the special programs the each have, and an additional magazine. Cons, you have to pay two sets of dues to receive all the pros of both national clubs. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

01-08-2013, 12:40 AM	#14
MVal Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 69	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I would have to question the accuracy of MARC's Vp reply to Mike V's question above. While I am more familar with MAFCA's insurance than MARC's, I can't believe MARC's insurance covers the INDIVIDUAL members of the club while on a tour. My understanding has always been that the national insurance covers the CLUB, not the individual members and the members have to have their own personal car insurance. So if on tour and an individual has a wreck, his own personal insurance will come into play. Should the other party decide that including the club in his/her suit because if there was no tour the accident wouldn't have happened, he/she will also name the club in the suit and that will cause the national club's insurance to come into play to defend the CLUB only. This is also called "going for the deepest pockets". Regardless, every state requires all drivers to have their own personal insurance on their cars. As a aside, try to get MARC's club insurance coverage in California--my understanding is that it is unavailable whether or not you have 100% MARC membership!! But that is for another thread!!

01-08-2013, 04:30 AM	#17
Bob-A Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central FL, USA Posts: 1,138	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I also like the idea of one national "A" club. But like what has been said: "Egos.........". Marco I didn't know you where part of the "Me" generation?..... Bob-A

01-08-2013, 10:50 AM	#18
Fred BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: California, Maryland Posts: 1,421	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I agree with Marco 100%...I very much enjoy each clubs magazine, and while in Viet Nan in 1965, 67, & 69 was always looking to get them, even though most were beat up a bit and a month or so late !! They made for good reading, and still do.. P.S. Still have them !!..

01-08-2013, 11:16 AM	#21
Jerry Parr WI Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 619	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I agree with Marco also. Since a major portion of the club's dues go to the magazine publication a combined club would need to eliminate one magazine or substantially increase dues. This eliminates the only advantage I have ever heard promoted, the reduction of dues. No financial gain and a potential magazine loss as I see it.

01-08-2013, 02:38 PM	#22
Dick Carne Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fayetteville, Georgia Posts: 467	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs A sincere "thanks" to everyone that has responded, and to anyone who may respond as well going forward. I have been around Model A's and MARC (at that time) since the early 1960's as a teenager, and during that time I have seen the ebb and flow of a resurgence by first one and then the other club (I've also served a MARC Regional Director and a MAFCA Chapter President). When we were reviewing the proponents of one affiliation vs. the other in determining the future course for our local Region several years back, we were finally persuaded more by the insurance/liabilty coverage afforded at that time by the MARC organization. That appears to have changed since that time (and I also understand the limitation of coverage extending only to the Club itself - we have resolved to this point to keep dues lower than most, so there is not really a "deep pocket" from a club treasury standpoint to entice a prospective plaintiff to pursue the Club as a potential co-defendant, but in that event, and under the single affiliation we currently have, then to pick up with the "other" charter would allow the group to continue virtually unscathed by any litigation). Insurance issues aside, I believe that the motivation behind the current "push" to consider a dual affiliation is due largely to an interest in being able to incorporate into the local Club's newsletter and web-page those publication resources available through both national clubs, with noted credits given of course. However, I remain mindful of the dual costs to affiliate with both national clubs in that event (if only for Directors themselves), but that said, its sometimes difficult enough to find folks willing to serve in a Board capacity without adding an additional cost to that challenge, especially for folks on fixed incomes and otherwise moderate incomes. Again, thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. Dick

01-08-2013, 03:33 PM	#23
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I have read what some people have written about the insurance issue regarding both clubs. This whole issue came about a number of years ago as result of a large claim against one of the National club's liability policy due to an event that happened at a swap meet sponsored by one of their affiliated local clubs. As a result one of the national clubs insurance rates sky rocketed. The other club took actions to minimize the exposure of their local clubs, members and the national from such an event. A few specific individuals have an axe to grind with one of the national clubs. I suggest if you are interested in how the policy is administrated, go to both clubs web sites and read for yourself their policy regarding what is covered, who is covered, what is not covered, and what is considered "high risk". I think you will find the wording on both clubs' web sites is almost identical. Within both clubs, members must have their own auto insurance policy. Specifically, auto accidents are not covered by either national club's general liability policy. Last edited by frank55a; 01-08-2013 at 05:09 PM.

01-09-2013, 01:32 AM	#27
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs "If you have several high-profile events a year buying your own event insurance could bankrupt a club." If your club in not a member of one of the national clubs, except for tours and maybe a swap meet what high-profile event(s) would you be holding? __________________

01-09-2013, 11:45 AM	#29
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question. I can see the swap meet liability but not sure about the picnic, guess because the only time we eat is if we are on a tour or spring and fall banquets as a group. I would have to ask the powers to be if we get insurance for are spring and fall banquets or when we stop at a public park to eat lunch. As a member of one of the sponsoring clubs of the Portland Swap Meet the insurance cost does not come up in the budget because the clubs that sponsor it formed a corp. that runs the meet.

01-09-2013, 03:06 PM	#30
MVal Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 69	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Frank 55's comment above that "neither national club's insurance covers an auto accident" isn't true. MAFCA is currently involved in a lawsuit which resulted from an auto accident during the Grand tour of a meet in central CA. The driver of the A died and his family is suing the local club, region and MAFCA. The A was stopped to make a left turn and another vehicle coming the other way veered into his lane and hit the A headon. Remember the policy is a general liability and the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!

01-09-2013, 06:06 PM	#32
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs I stand by what I wrote about neither clubs General liability insurance policy not covering automobile related events i.e., auto accidents. Coverage per MAFCA's web site: General liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage available to MAFCA. Coverage per MARC's web site: General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage available to MARC Directors, staff and MARC members of MARC Regions or Special Interest Groups located in the United States and Canada. MVAL is also partiallycorrect in that "the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!" Specifically, anyone can sue just about anyone for just about any reason, but obtaining a favorable judgment may be another story. Obtaining a judgment that would require MAFCA's insurance company to pay, may be another story when they (MAFCA and as I understand their insurance company) say the liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage. I think we would all like to know more about this accident and the outcome. If the outcome of this legal action results in a judicial ruling against MAFCA and the insurance company has to pay, then from what I heard resulting from their past big claim there will be some really big changes made with respect to MAFCA's insurance coverage. We could speculate what the impact would be to MAFCA, the MAFCA Chapters, and MAFCA membership, but that is premature. I hate to sound negative but the reality is the next potential claim is just around the corner. This is why it is so important for both national clubs and all Chapters and Regions to take whatever steps they must to protect themselves and mitigate their exposure.

01-09-2013, 11:29 PM	#33
denis4x4 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Durango CO Posts: 1,309	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs For what it's worth, a number of automotive oriented clubs in the four corners area formed a club council and contract with a broker to provide insurance for shows, swap meets, etc. The costs were spread over a number of clubs and often times the municipality will allow a club to "piggy back" on the city's policy. Having run some major 4x4 events with national media coverage, I never found inurance to be a problem.

01-10-2013, 12:48 PM	#38
CarlG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 9,115	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Been going on for a long time! When I was 18 years old, an "old man" (old to me at the time anyway) ran a red light coming out of a shopping center and I T-Boned him (passenger side of the car). It was just after dark, he was "legally blind", driving without a license , no insurance (even though he was an insurance broker), received a citation, etc, etc. He sued MY insurance co -- and they settled out of court, paid for his car and medical bills and lord knows what else. This subsequently went on MY record, despite all my objections to the contrary. And, I had to fix my car at my own expense! (I only had liability -- cheap car, college student, etc.)

01-10-2013, 01:10 PM	#40
Fred BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: California, Maryland Posts: 1,421	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs It will NOT work !! Do you realize the amount people would quit, even before the ink was dry ??..

01-10-2013, 01:15 PM	#41
CarlG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 9,115	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs Wasn't there a pole on here some time back that showed that the majority belonged to both clubs?

01-10-2013, 02:01 PM	#42
Fred BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: California, Maryland Posts: 1,421	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs YUP, And who liked which one & why , Etc-Etc..

01-10-2013, 09:32 PM	#44
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs There may come a point where membership in both gets so low that they will have to merge to survive.