Insight needed re: operating costs

[a_crazy]

Hello gents, I would like to thank all of you for your responses to my post. I feel a guy can't learn if he doesn't ask questions. Now fellas please understand that I do not own a model A, but I have been thinking that I like them. I understand the salt issue, and the lack of creature comforts, and the time in maintenance. Honestly I would like to think I am a simple fella, ( not dumb or crazy) I think a heater and radio could be retro fitted to an A . However I need to tell you my attraction is the simplicity of not needing a computer to fix an A, Being from Vermont ( originally)My understanding was that tall narrow tires were the best way to go in the snow, however Mr. Frank says not so. I like how the A sits up off the ground and is not so low like modern cars. The only cars today that accomplish this is four wheel drive models , this is a feature and added expense that I don't need. I do believe in dedicated REAL snow tires.. (I like mine studded)
I am perplexed... I am trying to think " outside the box" I am on a bit of a quest ..I would like to find a vehicle that is simple to fix/ work on ( no computer), sits up off the ground, would Appreciate instead of Depreciate, would have good fuel mileage, would go good in winter weather, something that would last a real long time. Also it would have to be my only vehicle as I can not afford more than one. do you guys have any ideas? If I was a wealthy sort ,I would like to design/make my own vehicles.. I could go on and on about my ideas ... please let me know if you want to hear them. different is not necessarily "crazy"

[C26Pinelake]

start another thread if you want to go down that road but it does not seem to be a Model A thread.Try the Hamb. Wayne

[ronn]

I am perplexed... I am trying to think " outside the box" I am on a bit of a quest ..I would like to find a vehicle that is simple to fix/ work on ( no computer), sits up off the ground, would Appreciate instead of Depreciate, would have good fuel mileage, would go good in winter weather, something that would last a real long time. Also it would have to be my only vehicle as I can not afford more than one. do you guys have any ideas? If I was a wealthy sort ,I would like to design/make my own vehicles.. I could go on and on about my ideas ... please let me know if you want to hear them. different is not necessarily "crazy"

my answer to all of that is a Jeep or Subaru............................!

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

DON'T DRIVE THE CAR IN SALT !!!!

Please, just don't do it.

I did. I ran my '28 Special Coupe through four seasons, including a NE PA winter, and the salt & brine from one season really took a toll on the car.

It ran fine in the cold (started easily at -2* F in February), didn't have traction worth a damn in snow w/o chains.

Please don't sacrifice your A to winter road treatment.

I will never do so to another old car.

Ditto

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by ronn

my answer to all of that is a Jeep or Subaru............................!

Ill take vehicles that rust out bad for 1000 Alex.

Jeeps - overpriced and frame/tub rots out bad

Subaru - for those of us that live in the rust belt when was the last time you saw a 8+ year old subaru on the road? I see maybe 1-2 a month and its rusted to heck.

Shame because both of those cars have rock solid engines/drivelines too!

Also gas mileage is garbage in both - 4 banger jeep wrangler maybe 19mpg on a good day, subaru my friends '12 legacy was getting 26...He no longer owns the subraru due to paint failing, drivers side lumbar broke, and sunroof was more like tropical depression creator INSIDE the car...

Jeeps are cake to work on - not sure on subarus but i know they are reliable

Anything pre 1996 is relatively easy to work on and doesnt require a computer...Anything pre id say 1985 a socket set and open wrenches ought to disassemble the entire car...

I can completely understand the want for something different, unfortunately that means something 20+ years old where it would be a shame to let it rust away.

[marc hildebrant]

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I drove a 1933 Chev year round for 2 years. After adding a heater and radio the car drove just fine.

This was in Massachusetts.

Marc

[ronn]

Subaru - for those of us that live in the rust belt when was the last time you saw a 8+ year old subaru on the road? I see maybe 1-2 a month and its rusted to heck.


go to syracuse NY- half of the cars on the road are subarus and no, they are not rusted out..............

Must be the water in Illinois..............!

ps gas mileage on a new forrester is 33 mpg- that is bad?

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

I drove a 1933 Chev year round for 2 years. After adding a heater and radio the car drove just fine.

This was in Massachusetts.

Marc

There is a lot more to turning a Model A into a daily driver than a heater and a radio unless your daily driving is to just pick up the mail. Wayne

[Kevin in NJ]

Dodge power wagon?

Early suburbans.

There are many options for old car that are more suitable for daily driving in north country.

As for salt and sheet metal, if the body is properly restored with epoxy paint that should not really be an issue. As for getting stuck in an A, well that is what shovels and rope are for. Dig the car out and tie some rope around the wheels and you will get going.

You will have more safety issues from the lack of AC and a good defrost system. What bothers me most is how older cars are in damp weather. From driving 60's Mustangs the glass fogs up and does not clear easy. Of course the braking on modern cars vs older. On the A and other early cars there is not good way to clear the windshields and such. You also need to put better taillights for others to see you better. Lets be serious, these new LED lights really do help you see.

[3.6rs]

Originally Posted by a_crazy

... However I need to tell you my attraction is the simplicity of not needing a computer to fix an A...

Drive a car from the seventies or the early eighties as daily. There is no computer, they can follow in traffic, they got heater, mayby ac,...
My daily driver is 1986 Audi 80 (30 years old) - 1600cc - carburetor (NO monopoint injection), and the body is completely galvanized so no rust ever. 270000 km's and still going strong. Costs : once in a while brake pads, oil and filter, cheap 14" tyres, 90 euros insurance for 1 year, 35 euro road tax for 1 year. No need to lock the car, they won't steel it.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by ronn

Subaru - for those of us that live in the rust belt when was the last time you saw a 8+ year old subaru on the road? I see maybe 1-2 a month and its rusted to heck.


go to syracuse NY- half of the cars on the road are subarus and no, they are not rusted out..............

Must be the water in Illinois..............!

ps gas mileage on a new forrester is 33 mpg- that is bad?

could be - i hardly ever see old subarus here - and if i do they are rusted out.

Im not talking about new cars - if he wants a interesting car he probably doesnt want a new car - they all drive ride and handle pretty much the same - absolutely no character at all. 33 isnt bad at all for something with AWD.

Ive thought about getting an AMC eagle wagon. great ground clearance - true 4x4 - available in manual. carbed, but they like to rust too it seems...

yes 60-80's cars generally have an awful defrost system. I've had frost on the INSIDE of my windshield before on my chevette...then blast the defrost and usually defrosts the passenger side well before the drivers...

[jrelliott]

Jeep. They hold their value quite well here in AZ especially in the mountain areas The majority of vehicles in the town where I live is Jeep. Everything from WWII to the latest, and they just keep going. Lot of people here do off roading and you do not see anything but Jeeps that are outfitted for the task. Just have to remember the older CJ style is squirrely at high speed due to short wheel base and top heavy. They do not get the best gas millage old Jeeps with 6 cylinders was just about 20 normal commuting. Di get about 25 on the highway. New '14 Jeep with 4 cylinder gets 25 normal commuting and over 30 when running on the highway. When it snows, the highways north and east of Payson, AZ are closed to four wheel drive and chains only with a sheriff there at the road block to insure no one passes unless you have the proper set up. Only one time could not make it up the steep hill into our subdivision in our '95 Jeep as had about 15" of snow. Drove around the back way and made it home and in the garage. Was an older '95 Jeep Grand Cherokee then. Have one of the newer Cherokee's now and made it up the steep hill in the "Snow" setting without even spinning a tire the last big snow storm.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Every vehicle I've seen from NH, VT, ME, MA that are more than 5-10 years old tend to be cancer buckets.

There's not much you can do to get away from computerized engine management systems unless you go back before 1985

Stuff made after 1990 or so, is reasonably reliable. But, as the vehicle ages, you will still be up against possible failure of proprietary electronic parts that may not be available from aftermarket sources.

After 2000-2005, we get into systems that are very complex, and often take a dealership computer to diagnose.

If the vehicle in question has the On-Board Diagnostic System ( OBD / OBD II ), you can purchase a hand-held code reader to see what fault codes are being reported and stored in the vehicle's computer, and with the aid of a Haynes manual or other resources, diagnose the problem, and see about repair.

The more power creature-comforts a vehicle has, the greater potential for failure, and complexity of repair: Power Windows, Climate Control, Entertainment systems, etc.

For fair-weather driving (non-salt), pick your antique / older car, put it in good run order and enjoy; for winter / salt driving, pick something 5-15 years old, put it in good mechanical shape, and plan on replacing it every 3-5 years, as the cancer overtakes it.

Jeeps and Subarus are good, and have their followings, but at least up through the 2000 model years, they still get cancer, and are generally expensive to fix when they get sick (Subaru more than Jeep).

Think about it, and see what makes sense for your situation.

SC Frank

[bunnyc]

Originally Posted by ronn

I am perplexed... I am trying to think " outside the box" I am on a bit of a quest ..I would like to find a vehicle that is simple to fix/ work on ( no computer), sits up off the ground, would Appreciate instead of Depreciate, would have good fuel mileage, would go good in winter weather, something that would last a real long time. Also it would have to be my only vehicle as I can not afford more than one. do you guys have any ideas? If I was a wealthy sort ,I would like to design/make my own vehicles.. I could go on and on about my ideas ... please let me know if you want to hear them. different is not necessarily "crazy"

my answer to all of that is a Jeep or Subaru............................!

Absolutely the best car I ever owned was a VW Beetle. Easy to work on, goes great in the snow and did appreciate in value. Drove the same '73 Super Beetle for 26 years, daily and all over the US. Racked up over 350K miles. Rebuilt the engine every 100K. Kept it completely stock. Driven sensibly, it got 25 mpg on regular gas. Sorry I ever got out of Beetle ownership.

[a_crazy]

I would like to offer all you guys and gals a sincere thank you. I have come to realize that I would not have the time ,money or location (place to work on it) to uphold the owning a mighty model A. I do like the uniqueness , and other features of the buggy. As disappointing as it is for me to admit, an A is not for me.
I think Vw bugs are cool (both literally and figuratively) how ever they don't have the seat height I am looking for. Subaru ( I have owned a couple in the past) are basically" throw away cars" and pricey to repair... in my opinion with all due respect
So in the time since my last post I too have been thinking about a Jeep.. I once had a TJ. They were produced 1997-2006 and my favorite era of the wrangler. I am most fond of the inline six cylinder 4.0L with the six speed manual transmission... yes that's six forward gears and one reverse... it was a torquey little combination. I am thinking the only way to get the seat height I desire is to go with a four wheel drive, even though I don't need the traction enhancer, or extra parts spinning and burning up my gas. thanks again to you all for sharing your insight.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

Every vehicle I've seen from NH, VT, ME, MA that are more than 5-10 years old tend to be cancer buckets.

There's not much you can do to get away from computerized engine management systems unless you go back before 1985

Stuff made after 1990 or so, is reasonably reliable. But, as the vehicle ages, you will still be up against possible failure of proprietary electronic parts that may not be available from aftermarket sources.

After 2000-2005, we get into systems that are very complex, and often take a dealership computer to diagnose.

If the vehicle in question has the On-Board Diagnostic System ( OBD / OBD II ), you can purchase a hand-held code reader to see what fault codes are being reported and stored in the vehicle's computer, and with the aid of a Haynes manual or other resources, diagnose the problem, and see about repair.

The more power creature-comforts a vehicle has, the greater potential for failure, and complexity of repair: Power Windows, Climate Control, Entertainment systems, etc.

For fair-weather driving (non-salt), pick your antique / older car, put it in good run order and enjoy; for winter / salt driving, pick something 5-15 years old, put it in good mechanical shape, and plan on replacing it every 3-5 years, as the cancer overtakes it.

Jeeps and Subarus are good, and have their followings, but at least up through the 2000 model years, they still get cancer, and are generally expensive to fix when they get sick (Subaru more than Jeep).

Cur

Think about it, and see what makes sense for your situation.

SC Frank

Curious why after 2000-2005? Thats a big point spread also..
OBD ll. Started in 1996...and actually made it easier to do diagnostics compared to the predecessors EEC IV GM 1 AND 2...
Knowledgable shops have the same equipment and resources as the agency's less the bull----..

Pre 1985 vehicles had ECM's also

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by a_crazy

I would like to offer all you guys and gals a sincere thank you. I have come to realize that I would not have the time ,money or location (place to work on it) to uphold the owning a mighty model A. I do like the uniqueness , and other features of the buggy. As disappointing as it is for me to admit, an A is not for me.
I think Vw bugs are cool (both literally and figuratively) how ever they don't have the seat height I am looking for. Subaru ( I have owned a couple in the past) are basically" throw away cars" and pricey to repair... in my opinion with all due respect
So in the time since my last post I too have been thinking about a Jeep.. I once had a TJ. They were produced 1997-2006 and my favorite era of the wrangler. I am most fond of the inline six cylinder 4.0L with the six speed manual transmission... yes that's six forward gears and one reverse... it was a torquey little combination. I am thinking the only way to get the seat height I desire is to go with a four wheel drive, even though I don't need the traction enhancer, or extra parts spinning and burning up my gas. thanks again to you all for sharing your insight.

Good luck finding one where the rocker area, right behind the front wheels, floor and frame arent rotted. Ive driven the straight 6 and 6 speed - fun combination but top end is the same as the 5 speed (5 speed is actually geared better for highway) dont get a rubicon unless you want 15-16 mpg (4.11 diffs)

2000-2001 they had a head change that sucked and cracked the head between 3 and 4. 2005 and 2006 4.0's they didnt bore the distributor hole the correct angle in the block/straight in brazil so it binds up the distributor wearing out the upper bushing (that also has a design of no lube) and also wearing out the drive gear and camshaft. Causes SES light to come on and erratic idle. Google squeaking monkey or laughing monkey - very well known problem only on 05-06. There is a few bandiad fixes but nothing permanent. - not on every one but a huge majority. Happens at 6,000 miles or 80,000 miles and anywhere in between. Usually blows the engine up if it seizes while running. If its made it to 150K and never been changed you got a good one. There is a class action lawsuit about that but its been stalled for years now...

Good ones around here with over 100K are getting 9-12K...If you want the kinda rare long wheelbase LJ (04-06) your looking at 14-20K for a good one with 100K on it.

Also im sure being in snowy areas youll want the hard top - buy one with it already or your looking at another $1,000 on top of whatever you pay to get a used one - $1400 for new +$400 S&H.

Dont forget light weight and wide tires and short wheelbase make an awful winter vehicle.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Curious why after 2000-2005? Thats a big point spread also..
OBD ll. Started in 1996...and actually made it easier to do diagnostics compared to the predecessors EEC IV GM 1 AND 2...
Knowledgable shops have the same equipment and resources as the agency's less the bull----..

Pre 1985 vehicles had ECM's also

Because 2005 and earlier you can see whats going on with the $30 scanner - after that then you need the $300 scanner to run system tests and actuate solenoids and such to track down problems - no more jumpering around fuel pump relays or any of the other quick and dirty stuff - its all microprocessor controlled now. Average mid- high end car can have 20 computers on it all talking together now where before you had about 3 - airbag, ECM, and a body control one.

pre 1985 ECM's are basically a relay logic board haha. Has a big funky orange connector you can jam a paper clip into and it blinks the engien light a code at you much like OBD 1 but much cruder.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

Good luck finding one where the rocker area, right behind the front wheels, floor and frame arent rotted. Ive driven the straight 6 and 6 speed - fun combination but top end is the same as the 5 speed (5 speed is actually geared better for highway) dont get a rubicon unless you want 15-16 mpg (4.11 diffs)

2000-2001 they had a head change that sucked and cracked the head between 3 and 4. 2005 and 2006 4.0's they didnt bore the distributor hole the correct angle in the block/straight so it binds up the distributor wearing out the upper bushing (that also has a design of no lube) and also wearing out the drive gear and camshaft. Causes SES light to come on and erratic idle. Google squeaking monkey or laughing monkey - very well known problem only on 05-06. There is a few bandiad fixes but nothing permanent. - not on every one but a huge majority. Happens at 6,000 miles or 80,000 miles and anywhere in between. Usually blows the engine up if it seizes while running. If its made it to 150K and never been changed you got a good one.

Good ones around here with over 100K are getting 9-12K...If you want the kinda rare long wheelbase LJ (04-06) your looking at 14-20K for a good one with 100K on it.

Also im sure being in snowy areas youll want the hard top - buy one with it already or your looking at another $1,000 on top of whatever you pay to get a used one - $1400 for new.

Dont forget light weight and wide tires and short wheelbase make an awful winter vehicle.

Chrysler done ruined a good vehicle.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Chrysler done ruined a good vehicle.

yea now its a soccer mom mobile with the minivan engine... ruined the ONE thing jeeps had going for them - the small fit anywhere size! Now its as wide as a fullsize vehicle...

Dont worry still $20k for the bare bones 2 door or $30K for the bare bones 4 door.