Totaly "Restored" 1st Sport Coupe sold in San Francisco

[Brian SATX]

Maybe refurbished, but not restored. The bill of sale is very interesting. Note the cowl lights are on it so I wonder if the ones on the car are the ones the dealer installed? When did cowl lights start on some models?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Ford-M...QAAOSw~YldPeph

[Vern]

Wow, that is one example of "high quality restoration".
While I'm no purist, one of the first things I look for when ads use such descriptions is whether the engine pans are installed.
And wouldn't an early '28 have a radiator shroud?
Forgot to mention that the '28 California plates should be blue with yellow numbers.

[Ruth]

I used to tell the children in Art Class, "Know when to stop!"

[TerryH]

For some reason did not paint the engine in Ford green.....to me, that really detracts. Lots of mods, but looks very nice....

[Dodge]

I'd call it a very nice, pretty, customized Model A, almost a hot rod. Not a restoration.
I also doubt it was the first Sport Coupe sold in the San Francisco Bay Area at that production date. I wouldn't be surprised if the first one sold would have been at Billy Houghson
Ford in San Francisco.

[redmodelt]

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Nice but for that kinda money, there are other cars that I would have bought, done already.

[Speedyal]

Yes it is a nice car, but some of the stuff done can not be fixed without a lot of work , for example gas tank cut up to install radio, this is very nice car and if It was the first car sold in that area and the owner knew this why would you modify it and not restore back to the original way it was sold with just adding some of the mods such as motor work and overdrive unit but paint everything to stock condition so if someone did want a nice AR coupe this would of been a great car to buy, but a lot of work would have to be done to put it back to a fine point or even a touring car especially with gas tank cut up.

[tiger.1000]

Regardless, it's a good looking motorcar !

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by tiger.1000

Regardless, it's a good looking motorcar !

Yes, and will very likely sell to someone who could care less about authenticity simply because how the seller described it all seems believable.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Looking at the original sales docket, I'll bet the salesman went home that night with a smile on his face. Nice to see an early sport coupe with the correct top.

[mike657894]

look at that radio they cut into the tank.

[beefheart]

that engine color just doesn't get it in my opinion, but to each their own!

[ryanheacox]

Are those correct early cowl lights? They look good but I've never seen them before and given the rest of the car it's hard to tell what is authentic.


It's odd they went though the effort of cutting the gas tank up to install the radio and made up the tank in the trunk but still kept the old 7 tooth steering box. It all seems well done, just confuses the hell out of me.

[77Birdman]

Boy, you guys are tough! Looks like a really nice car to me (guess that's why i should take a Model A guy with me when Im ready to buy). There are a few things that stand out for my untrained eyes, but all in all top shelf. I wouldn't be crazy about the gas tank relocation, and for the quality of work done I would have done something else with the stereo.

[beefheart]

In regards to the cowl lights , it looks like the hole the wire harness comes through is rough around the hole, like drill burrs, also I would think there would be a rubber grommet in place , still a nice job , also would two tail lamps be on the car originally?

[Railcarmover]

Thats a car someone went to great lengths on,the chassis is impeccable.Fit and finish is first class.Folks get wadded up on authenticity and the word 'restored'.If you strive for that,great,if not,this is a fine example of a modified model a..32k worth? debatable..the market is flat,and personalized cars are just that,they have a narrow market. All the hoo-hah about provenance is just that,hoo-hah,makes a buyer skeptical about what he's getting.

[rotorwrench]

When the Model As came out, the Sport Coupes were in very big demand and especially with folks that could afford better cars. Dealers were promising them to the famous and well to do. The "new" sort of wore off of them in late 1929. The Cabriolet might have had something to do with that but the depression was likely the rest of the story.

It was sort of like what happened when the Mustangs first came out in mid 1964. I own a Sport Coupe and they are a fun little car but not something I'd pay that much for especially when it's been restomoded that much.

[redmodelt]

Not sure about the cowl/parking lights? Was Ford offering the type we see now for 28/29 or did the dealer have to used non-Ford on the early cars?

The rear end: looks like wrong bolts (with star washers?) holding the tubes to center?

No one has said anything about the carburetor.

Looks like chrome plating instead of nickle.
I would not be wild crazy about the fuel tank location, almost like lets just hang it off the rear as an after thought.


Yes the finish on the car looks top shelf, just not Ford points judging.

[WHN]

I’m sure someone is very proud of this car.

It’s like a custom house. The owners taste but not always easy to sell. Enjoy.

[Gary Karr]

I seriously find it hard to believe that this was the FIRST Sport Coupe to be sold in San Francisco, especially when the San Francisco plant start up date was January 4, 1928, if in fact this car came from that plant!

[daren007]

Yes I am hung up on the term Restoration especially when advertised as a “total” restoration. For that kind of money the car should be correct.

[DannL]

I guess I'm sorta purist. I always look for original paint chips, dings, scratches, and rust. Especially rust. When that's missing I feel that a big part of it's character has been erased. I may be outdated in my thinking.

[WTSHNN]

Pluck's site has a good bit of info on the San Fran plant.
http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/assypl..._francisco.pdf

Considering the first known Sport Coupe built in SF was on Jan 5th, and they built over 3,000 of them in '28, I seriously doubt this was the first one sold in the area.

Really like this part of the ad "NOS "Dog bone" shock connectors."

I've always wanted to do a '28 Sport Coupe but this one wouldn't be one for me.

To each their own.

-Tim

[F.M.]

Just WAY to many people TEXTING to have the gas tank where it is for me ..

[dumb person]

I have to agree with the gas tank being ugh.

[rotorwrench]

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The old San Francisco branch plant at Harrison and 21st was slow in manufacturing due to it being a 5-story building where stuff had to go by elevator up & down to the various assembly shops. It was outdated in the model T era let alone the model A. The Richmond plant came on line late in the model A era so I'm sure the early Model A cars were slow to come out the door. They likely produced most models anyway, just not as fast. I think there production was around 200 a day.

On the gas tank, folks thought the Pinto was dangerous. At least it had some sheet metal & structure around it.

[Automotive Stud]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Are those correct early cowl lights? They look good but I've never seen them before and given the rest of the car it's hard to tell what is authentic.


It's odd they went though the effort of cutting the gas tank up to install the radio and made up the tank in the trunk but still kept the old 7 tooth steering box. It all seems well done, just confuses the hell out of me.

I agree. Also it still appears to have mechanical brakes. That's the problem with resto/rods. You have this one person's interpretation of what needed to be improved and what didn't, and unless it lines up with a buyers view it will be sitting for a while, especially at that price.

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by WHN

I’m sure someone is very proud of this car.

It’s like a custom house. The owners taste but not always easy to sell. Enjoy.

Kind of like my house. It was built with 2600 square feet an 1 bedroom with 2 baths. I have since remodeled some daylight basement area into another bed & bath.

[Ranchero50]

Seems overly restored but yet incorrect for what it is. I guess the guy paying the bills wanted it his way.

[john in illinois]

I do not like the gas tank. The trunk mounts if stock are not heavy enough.
However 32 Fords have the tank in the rear. The car is strange. If he wanted a rear tank with all the work he put in he should have put on a 32 tank. Kits are available to mount it.

John

[DannL]

Originally Posted by F.M.

Just WAY to many people TEXTING to have the gas tank where it is for me ..

I thought it was a beer barrel with a hose running to a tap somewhere on the dash. If it's not . . . that really changes everything.

[tiger.1000]

When you check out the prices of hotrods this car to me looks like an absolute BARGAIN and yes a shining example of the restorers skills. Top marks to whomever is responsible for the result !

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daren007

Yes I am hung up on the term Restoration especially when advertised as a “total” restoration. For that kind of money the car should be correct.

Originally Posted by tiger.1000

When you check out the prices of hotrods this car to me looks like an absolute BARGAIN and yes a shining example of the restorers skills. Top marks to whomever is responsible for the result !

Yes, most hobbyists have no idea the amount of time (-in man-hours) that it takes to do a project like a Model-A, ...even when it is not even a thorough restoration. The simple reason is because they have never done a full restoration, so they are just speculating on the amount of hours that seems believable.


Based on our experiences, an accurate, full restoration on a Sport Coupe like that will easily take 1,300 - 1,500 hours for a professional that has the tools and experience, -and starts with a car that was decent. Naturally you back-out hours required if you replace with reproduction parts instead of restore, -or not follow the RG&JS book.


And while some here will complain about how this vehicle was 'restored' unauthentically, I'm sure if we took a hard look at each other's vehicles, we'd see many deviations from 'factory-done' too, -so in all likelihood, the owner that was paying for this car's restoration chose it to be done the way he wanted it. The shop that did this project executed many things well, and very likely made this owner's dream happen. Yes, it is not 'restored' buy the truest sense, but in this modern era, this appears to be one of the nicer Model-As available on the market these days, and if the car performs equal to its' looks, the person that buys this car will likely have a car they can cruise with while getting many thumbs-up.

[Wick]

Beautiful car. Put the tank back to original, repaint the engine,add pans and fan shroud. Cowl lights??
I think that would take the car to the next level.
At a good auction I think the car will bring somewhere in the 30 thousand + range.

[daren007]

If someone attempts to restore a car and makes an honest attempt I have respect for his efforts. I do not expect a concourse restoration but a period correct car. When someone says he restored a car but decided to make changes for whatever reason then do not call it a restoration especially a total restoration because it is not. You are miss representing your car.

[rotorwrench]

I don't know if I will ever get used to folks using the term "restored" so loosely but it seems to be prevalent these days. Too may folks don't know the definition of the word.

[dean from bozeman]

When selling a modified vehicle you need to find someone who agrees with your changes or interpretation of what makes the vehicle "better". Some may find this person's interpretation very appealing. All that is needed is for one person to put the money down.

The dictionary that I use defines the word restore as 'to bring back to or put back into a former or original state'. Using this definition, this car is not restored. I agree with Tim, 'To each their own'. However, I also believe in truth in advertising. This ad has many untruths.

With all that said, I sure do like the Radiator Hood Goddess!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daren007

If someone attempts to restore a car and makes an honest attempt I have respect for his efforts. I do not expect a concourse restoration but a period correct car. When someone says he restored a car but decided to make changes for whatever reason then do not call it a restoration especially a total restoration because it is not. You are miss representing your car.

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I don't know if I will ever get used to folks using the term "restored" so loosely but it seems to be prevalent these days. Too may folks don't know the definition of the word.

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

When selling a modified vehicle you need to find someone who agrees with your changes or interpretation of what makes the vehicle "better". Some may find this person's interpretation very appealing. All that is needed is for one person to put the money down.

The dictionary that I use defines the word restore as 'to bring back to or put back into a former or original state'. Using this definition, this car is not restored. I agree with Tim, 'To each their own'. However, I also believe in truth in advertising. This ad has many untruths.

With all that said, I sure do like the Radiator Hood Goddess!

What I think is slightly humorous in this discussion is trying to determine exactly 'what' pushed this car over the (imaginary) line that many here feel it is not 'Restored'. Is it the alternator? Is it the Mitchell Overdrive Transmission?? Is it the Weber carburetor or the modern Distributor cap & wires? Is it the Crème colored wheels or the Whitewall tires? Maybe it is the Float-a-Motor mounts?? That list could go with the accessories and such, ...HOWEVER if we were all truly honest with ourselves, many of our own Model-As that we call 'Restored' have those same items on them, -so what makes this car different enough that it has crossed that line yet our own cars haven't??


Playing Devil's Advocate, this car looks to have an authentic paint scheme (-closer to the correct color in the Paint & Refinish Guide than many A's I see at National meets), and it has an accurate representation of top material. It even has metal stemmed tubes, lever shocks, and mechanical brakes! In some ways, it looks more authentic than many of our own Model-As that we tell folks is 'restored'.


As Fred mentioned above, the engine color and the gas tank are the two biggest issues that are obviously wrong, ...but if it is any consolation, most of the 'restored cars' have the incorrect shade of engine green on their engines too, -so surely it cannot be the engine color that has made this car be considered "not restored"!


So is the definition of what this car is just like defining Pornography? As that Supreme Court Justice loosely stated "I shall not try to define it, but I know it when I see it!". Maybe we cannot put a definitive line across what is restored or not restored, -but we apparently we all know what is or isn't Restored when we see it!!

[tiger.1000]

Give the man a break ! He describes it as "a high quality restoration". No mention of what the car was like prior to restoration.....maybe just a grubby,tired,worn out version of what we see now.


Credit where credit's due for a top job ! I bet very few Barners who own a convertible have a wrinkle free hood ?

[The Master Cylinder]

I think what gets me more than anything is the "Color Coordinated" license plate. California never had license plates that color and I'm not even sure they're legal that color.

Second is the radio in the gas tank and the speakers on the tray. They both look like after thoughts. With all the Blue Tooth devices these days they could have done a better job hiding them.

[rotorwrench]

It doesn't really matter how much they strayed from original on the build. Restored means to restore it to original or as close as is practicable. The fact is, that it wouldn't come all that close to max points at a judging. It has too many custom additions. I won't say that's a bad thing but it is a factual statement.

To each there own I guess. I just wonder why he's trying to sell it after spending so much on the build. Most Folks know that they will likely recoup only a fraction of the investment. They might as well use the thing a while longer. You never know what folks get out of the hobby. Everything is different for each individual. Some just like the hunt and the build. After that they lose interest. Others enjoy the fruits of their labors and drive the things all over the place to meets and such.

If I was going to spend that kind of cash, it wouldn't be on a model A but that's just me.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Oh my...........that car would not be for ME

[Russ B]

Not original, but beautifully over restored to the owner’s individual taste. It is bargain priced compared to what it must have cost to build. It’s appeal may be limited to exclude most of the Ford Barn members, but it is a very nice car.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I just wonder why he's trying to sell it after spending so much on the build. Most Folks know that they will likely recoup only a fraction of the investment.

The reason for sale is in the ad.

[daveymc29]

Didn't George Piperas father own the first Sports Coupe sold in the Bay Area? I'll ask that question.

[jimalabam]

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As a purist,first I agree with Brent, Second there so darn many things wrong with this car, it would take a notebook to record the issues, starting with those "funky" AM cowl lamps...

[TerryH]

I agree with the strict definition of restored, but I would also offer that lots and lots of Model A owner’s that belong to clubs, and have Model A’s that have been very nicely “refurbished” in many ways, but also have touring mods, describe them as restored. I think to many not so serious hobbyists, restoring is a somewhat nebulous term, loosely applied often. So, if a car is really restored, except for a Mitchell OD, is it now mostly restored, 95% restored, refurbished, or just a nice Model A?

[redmodelt]

I did a little checking on the cowl lights, Ford did not supply cowl lights till later in 28 and when they did start supplying, for a few months were fluted lens like the head lights. So these could be correct.

[Mike V. Florida]

Nothing overlooked, nothing unmodified. Imagine a person buying the car and entering it in fine point because of the " nothing overlooked restoration".

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

And while some here will complain about how this vehicle was 'restored' unauthentically, I'm sure if we took a hard look at each other's vehicles, we'd see many deviations from 'factory-done' too, -so in all likelihood, the owner that was paying for this car's restoration chose it to be done the way he wanted it. .

Of course there will be deviations but do we advertise nothing spared restoration with original engine and transmission?


We make comments about this car not because of what is there but because what the seller says is there. The car is what it is but it is not by definition restored.


I just sold my Town Sedan. I did not say it was number matching (the numbers do match thanks to some stamps) It has original Houdaille shocks but I did not state that because, although they are on the car, they do not work and so on and so on.


This ad makes the reader believe it is restored and because they mentioned first one sold in SF one is led to believe the definition is to bring back to or put back into a former or original state. So I think it is fodder for criticism as such.


Nice car? YES. Fair price? Debatable in my opinion, too high for a totally restored car but the price is ok for a car restored to as I found it.

[rotorwrench]

I don't know about those cowl lights being anything original or not but they would allow side mounts more readily since they mount up on the cowl belt line. The description mentions the side mounts and cowl lamps were dealer installed so they may be an aftermarket item. The more common 28/29 lamps mount low and don't work well with side mounts.

[daren007]

How much $$ invested is moot. I myself do not see a $32000.00 car.

[daveymc29]

This from Piperas, his dad did have the first one/

Yep..... you are correct. Doug called and shared with me that my old car was listed....but I refuse to look at it. From what he said..... it's not what it used to be.


Thanks for letting me know.


g

[Steve Plucker]

The following senario may occured with this car:

The earliest Sport Coupe that I have coming out of the San Francisco Assembly plant was *A6017* which went to Loyalton, CA.



This Sport Coupe, *A151666*...Its engine number was stamped in Dearborn on May 24, 1928 thus it was shipped to the SFA after stamping by boat to be put into a Model A Ford (unknown body at the time).



It took on an average, 22 days for the SFA to receive the engine and get it assembled into a Model A (I am referring to my Assembly plant data for the month of May, 1928).



That being the case, it may have come off the assembly line about June 14, 1928 then it was shipped to the dealer in Oakland to be sold on June 20, 1928.



Interesting.



Pluck

[Shemp]

One thing that struck me was that the front brake and cross-shaft levers are bolted on rather than pinned.


Aside from not being correct, what are your thoughts on the safety of this practice?


Thanks.

[Railcarmover]

My Jan 29 Sport coupe has clearly spent its life in CA from the lack of effect from the elements.Engine and frame #983xxx.tank stamp date 1/25/29.Its amazing to me that Ford could assemble a fuel tank and an engine so close in dates given how different the two processes are.they almost achieved 'just in time' assembly..with watches and notebooks.

[Gary Karr]

Interesting date Pluck. I guess we are assuming that this Sport Coupe was in fact assembled in the San Francisco plant. But, could it not have been assembled an another plant and shipped to the San Francisco dealer?

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

Interesting date Pluck. I guess we are assuming that this Sport Coupe was in fact assembled in the San Francisco plant. But, could it not have been assembled an another plant and shipped to the San Francisco dealer?

Yes Gary...That could of also happened...It would be of interest to see what the assembly plant code on the body's subframe is. That for sure would tell us.

Pluck

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

My Jan 29 Sport coupe has clearly spent its life in CA from the lack of effect from the elements.Engine and frame #983xxx.tank stamp date 1/25/29.Its amazing to me that Ford could assemble a fuel tank and an engine so close in dates given how different the two processes are.they almost achieved 'just in time' assembly..with watches and notebooks.

Railcarmover...

Do you know what your assembly plant code and numbers are?

Pluck

[CHuDWah]

At least the landau bars are correctly mounted - a common mistake is to put them on upside-down and/or on the wrong sides of the car.

[jimalabam]

As a purist, I agree with the others. There are so many things WRONG with this car, it would take a complete note pad to document them. But some unknowing will think he has bought a super fine-point Model, to be disappointed and find out later. MY OPINION...

[Karl]

Originally Posted by jimalabam

As a purist, I agree with the others. There are so many things WRONG with this car, it would take a complete note pad to document them. But some unknowing will think he has bought a super fine-point Model, to be disappointed and find out later. MY OPINION...

Agree - would not be for me . If I was going to spend that much money on a car I would at least want it to look original. It's the owners car but IMHO he's wrecked it -Karl

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Its a shame that they cut up the tank to install a radio, ruins it right there. How many other things were done to detract from originality?

[tiger.1000]

Rotorwrench is incorrect when he states that "restore means restore to original".


Does the restoration of a 1950's hotrod mean that it must be returned to as it came off the production line? NEVER !

[rotorwrench]

OK now your splitting hairs. Since there have been race cars, hot rods, and customs since back in the first of the automotive age, a one off can be considered restored to its' modified condition but that is a sub group. All modified cars are basically one of a kind. You can't represent it as being and original factory produced automobile. It was once but now its something else. Anything can be restored but to restore it to it's original unaltered condition fits the definition. A one off custom or race car can be restored to it's original condition as long as it was in it's original condition as designed. If you put anything different on it then it doesn't fit the definition.

Usually only the well know race cars, hot rods, and customs warrant a restoration in this manner. There are also copy cat cars or clones so what is that restored too? Restore does not mean to change things from original and to say otherwise is a mis-representation.

[tiger.1000]

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Rotorwrench...we must agree to differ

[Dodge]

Just remember, there’s a butt for every seat. Maybe it will show up....