The Ford Barn

H. L. Chauvin · 02-06-2015, 12:49 PM

Not too confusing.

Sounds like what I thought I had heard, i.e., a front end alignment math equation for mechanics dealing with non-aligned kingpins associated with many slightly bent front axles; hence, setting a subsequent toe in dimension or degrees changed from what was originally recommended by the manufacturer for perfectly straight axles.

Thanks.

MrBruce · 02-06-2015, 01:29 PM

I agree, I bought what I think is a neat tool for Model A's. It looks just like the pictures for aligning the front ends. It's called "Wheel Alignment Gauge" and is sold or made by S&G Tool Aid Corp, Newark, NJ. It has the gauge readout and the chains. You put it in the front with chains touching the ground, move the car forward until the chains touch in back of the tire then read the tow-in. I haven't used it yet (hopefully this weekend) and will let you know how it works. Even the brand new Model A wheels that Snyder and Bratton are selling have up to 1/8 run out. That's on new wheels manufactured today.

CT AV8 · 02-06-2015, 01:49 PM

That's a neat tool but how does it compensate for runout? Don't the indicators mount at the rim?

MrBruce · 02-06-2015, 02:10 PM

No, it goes on the rubber tire and stays there while you move the car and it comes up in the back. Just like the Service Bulletin for front end alignment. I will take some pictures Saturday when I use it and put them on the forum. I think some people on the forum have used a shower curtain rod which has the spring action. It does say to "Press out on front of wheels to take up play" I guess that's the run-out compensation. We used to do it with a board, nail, and chaulk and it worked well.

mshmodela · 02-06-2015, 03:34 PM

For those who have not see the latest "Restorer" it has a nice article Front end alinement of a Model A.

mccsix · 02-06-2015, 04:10 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

MB do you have a p/n for the tool?

Mitch//pa · 02-06-2015, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccsix

MB do you have a p/n for the tool?

i have the same tool
the part numbers are on the paper and the difference between the two are the overall length's

bobusnick104 · 02-06-2015, 08:15 PM

The latest Restorer has a very good article by Howard Eckstein on the basics of wheel alignment. I haven't seen a better explanation.

MrBruce · 02-07-2015, 12:29 PM

MCCSIX, the smaller one that I have is #61600

MrBruce · 02-07-2015, 12:33 PM

Mitch, thanks for posting the pictures. I have it here in the office but didn't have the camera handy. Just starting to get used to posting pictures on the forum. Have you used it yet? I am going to do it today as soon as the temp gets a little warmer (looks like it's 53 now) should be close to 60 the next few days.

MrBruce · 02-07-2015, 12:38 PM

Yes, the Restorer has a great article, but for those of us who don't have a front end machine in our garage it's a lot of interesting info. But it's interesting to see the details of what went into the steering 80 years ago. We have a truck place not far from here who will check out Model A front ends for straightness and other dimensions, just haven't had a chance to check it out. I have six new tires to mount but need to paint the rims and probably put new tubes in after running them 30 years.

Mitch//pa · 02-07-2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBruce

Mitch, thanks for posting the pictures. I have it here in the office but didn't have the camera handy. Just starting to get used to posting pictures on the forum. Have you used it yet? I am going to do it today as soon as the temp gets a little warmer (looks like it's 53 now) should be close to 60 the next few days.

it gets it close but not nearly as accurate as my alignment rack... i set the toe to 1/16th in with the tool and the rack had it a hair toed out...

its not exact by any means acceptable?? yes....

H. L. Chauvin · 02-08-2015, 12:55 PM

If anyone is interested in making an alignment gage very similar to the Doby Gage shown above, made one about (3) years ago (1) as follows:

1. Main Horizontal Alignment PVC Strut: Cut a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe approximately 47" long.

2. Hidden Inner Spring: From a hardware store, get an approximately 3/4" diameter coil spring approximately 6" long. (Bring a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe to store to make sure spring fits & slides easily).

3.. Left & Right Wood Dowel Pin Holders:

A. Fixed End: Cut a wood 3/4" O.D. dowel approximately 34" long, insert wood dowel in fixed end of PVC pipe allowing 1-1/4" of the dowel to protrude on the out-side of the PVC pipe; then secure this approximately 34" long dowel in a fixed position with a 1/8" through bolt provided at approximately 2-1/2" from the fixed end of the PVC pipe.

B. Sliding End:

a. Sliding Wood Dowel: Cut a wood "sanded or shaved" 3/4" O.D. sliding dowel, (to slide easily inside the 3/4" PVC pipe), approximately 12" long, & with a Dremel tool, cut an approximately 4" long x 1/8" (+) wide slot in the longitudinal center of the dowel.

b. Insert the coil spring into the open end of the PVC pipe allowing it to rest on the inner, fixed 34"long dowel.

c. Drill a 1/8" centered hole through the PVC pipe, approximately 6" from the sliding end of the PVC pipe.

d. Provide a 1/8" through bolt through the PVC pipe & through the slot in the wood dowel so the slot acts as stops to prevent the dowel from sliding out of the PVC pipe, & from compressing the spring too far.

C. Steel End Pins: Drill an approximately 1-3/4" deep hole in the centered ends of both dowels. Cut (2) 12 penny, (12d) nails approximately 2-1/4" long & insert in the drilled holes in both ends of both wood dowels & allow approximately 1/2" of the steel pins to protrude outwards from outer ends of both wood dowels. With a file, provide slightly rounded smooth pin ends where end pins, (nails), will contact front tires.

(NOTE: All dimensions above will depend on the "trial & error" exact lengths of the spring, dowels, & locations of through bolts -- if doubtful, not a bad idea to get (2) dowels, one for trial, one for final. Nicer to provide bullet shapes on ends of both dowels so one can better see the position of the pins on the front tires.)

D. Provide & secure small chains on each end, dangling 6" from center of PVC strut to bottom end touching floor.

E. Wrap masking tape on sliding wood dowel, place tool on engine side & between front tires. With 6" suspended chains touching floor, mark tape at outer end of PVC pipe strut with a fine point black pencil. Roll car backwards approximately 36" until ends of suspended 6" chains contact floor again, & again mark taped wood dowel at end of PVC pipe with a fine point red pencil.

F. Remove tool to see toe-in dimension between red & black pencil mark.

MrBruce · 02-09-2015, 11:57 AM

Mitch
I tried it today (the tool), then before I could make any adjustments it started to rain. I couldn't believe how far off it was. Now I know why I wore out my last set of front tires so fast. It was off 1/2 in toe in, which would be 7/16ths off. Just a little to much toe in. I think a few years ago I used the chaulk and nail method with a board. Always worked in the past, but this time I think I did it alone and must have messed up. Tires are to expensive to wear them out like this. I have six new tires and will have to paint the rims before putting them on. After 30 years I think I will also put new tubes in.

Mitch//pa · 02-09-2015, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBruce

Mitch
I tried it today (the tool), then before I could make any adjustments it started to rain. I couldn't believe how far off it was. Now I know why I wore out my last set of front tires so fast. It was off 1/2 in toe in, which would be 7/16ths off. Just a little to much toe in. I think a few years ago I used the chaulk and nail method with a board. Always worked in the past, but this time I think I did it alone and must have messed up. Tires are to expensive to wear them out like this. I have six new tires and will have to paint the rims before putting them on. After 30 years I think I will also put new tubes in.

well as far as tubes some will say if they dont leak use them

. the tubes on the market leak, so if you go that route buy them from Brattons... he has them specially made to spec and is the only one selling them to my knowledge..

MrBruce · 02-09-2015, 12:43 PM

I have to cut the stem and put the metal valve stems in so was going to be around Smith & Jones, SC. I normally buy from Walt, but thought that since I needed to pickup parts for our spring tune up I would save some freight. Do you think there is a difference in quality on the regular tubes? Walt mentions in his catalog 100% new rubber not recycled rubber.

Mitch//pa · 02-09-2015, 12:50 PM

yes there is a difference
he sells them with metal stems installed also

MrBruce · 02-09-2015, 01:08 PM

Yes, I was going to do that until I saw the price. Close to $50.00 a tube and I already have the metal valve stems and did them years ago (never had a leak) which is surprising. I think both of them are selling the regular tubes for the same price so I will go ahead and get them from Walt. He supported us well for our MARC business meeting with ad money so try to support these guys.

H. L. Chauvin · 02-09-2015, 01:31 PM

FWIW:

Before discarding old inner tubes, it may or may not be good to know that I have some tubes in the 1955 Chrysler tires on my homemade boat trailer that still hold air.

Forgot what brand tubes, but my guess is they were made here in the U.S.

They were bought & installed in 1960, i.e., 54 years old, & still holding air.

02-06-2015, 12:49 PM	#21
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Not too confusing. Sounds like what I thought I had heard, i.e., a front end alignment math equation for mechanics dealing with non-aligned kingpins associated with many slightly bent front axles; hence, setting a subsequent toe in dimension or degrees changed from what was originally recommended by the manufacturer for perfectly straight axles. Thanks.

02-06-2015, 01:29 PM	#22
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In I agree, I bought what I think is a neat tool for Model A's. It looks just like the pictures for aligning the front ends. It's called "Wheel Alignment Gauge" and is sold or made by S&G Tool Aid Corp, Newark, NJ. It has the gauge readout and the chains. You put it in the front with chains touching the ground, move the car forward until the chains touch in back of the tire then read the tow-in. I haven't used it yet (hopefully this weekend) and will let you know how it works. Even the brand new Model A wheels that Snyder and Bratton are selling have up to 1/8 run out. That's on new wheels manufactured today.

02-06-2015, 01:49 PM	#23
CT AV8 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Cos Cob, CT Posts: 295	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In That's a neat tool but how does it compensate for runout? Don't the indicators mount at the rim?

02-06-2015, 02:10 PM	#24
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In No, it goes on the rubber tire and stays there while you move the car and it comes up in the back. Just like the Service Bulletin for front end alignment. I will take some pictures Saturday when I use it and put them on the forum. I think some people on the forum have used a shower curtain rod which has the spring action. It does say to "Press out on front of wheels to take up play" I guess that's the run-out compensation. We used to do it with a board, nail, and chaulk and it worked well.

02-06-2015, 03:34 PM	#25
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In For those who have not see the latest "Restorer" it has a nice article Front end alinement of a Model A. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

02-06-2015, 04:10 PM	#26
mccsix Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Pensacola Fl Posts: 305	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) MB do you have a p/n for the tool? __________________ Gene USN

02-06-2015, 08:15 PM	#28
bobusnick104 Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: SW PA Posts: 87	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In The latest Restorer has a very good article by Howard Eckstein on the basics of wheel alignment. I haven't seen a better explanation.

02-07-2015, 12:29 PM	#29
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In MCCSIX, the smaller one that I have is #61600

02-07-2015, 12:33 PM	#30
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Mitch, thanks for posting the pictures. I have it here in the office but didn't have the camera handy. Just starting to get used to posting pictures on the forum. Have you used it yet? I am going to do it today as soon as the temp gets a little warmer (looks like it's 53 now) should be close to 60 the next few days.

02-07-2015, 12:38 PM	#31
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Yes, the Restorer has a great article, but for those of us who don't have a front end machine in our garage it's a lot of interesting info. But it's interesting to see the details of what went into the steering 80 years ago. We have a truck place not far from here who will check out Model A front ends for straightness and other dimensions, just haven't had a chance to check it out. I have six new tires to mount but need to paint the rims and probably put new tubes in after running them 30 years.

02-08-2015, 12:55 PM	#33
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In If anyone is interested in making an alignment gage very similar to the Doby Gage shown above, made one about (3) years ago (1) as follows: 1. Main Horizontal Alignment PVC Strut: Cut a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe approximately 47" long. 2. Hidden Inner Spring: From a hardware store, get an approximately 3/4" diameter coil spring approximately 6" long. (Bring a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe to store to make sure spring fits & slides easily). 3.. Left & Right Wood Dowel Pin Holders: A. Fixed End: Cut a wood 3/4" O.D. dowel approximately 34" long, insert wood dowel in fixed end of PVC pipe allowing 1-1/4" of the dowel to protrude on the out-side of the PVC pipe; then secure this approximately 34" long dowel in a fixed position with a 1/8" through bolt provided at approximately 2-1/2" from the fixed end of the PVC pipe. B. Sliding End: a. Sliding Wood Dowel: Cut a wood "sanded or shaved" 3/4" O.D. sliding dowel, (to slide easily inside the 3/4" PVC pipe), approximately 12" long, & with a Dremel tool, cut an approximately 4" long x 1/8" (+) wide slot in the longitudinal center of the dowel. b. Insert the coil spring into the open end of the PVC pipe allowing it to rest on the inner, fixed 34"long dowel. c. Drill a 1/8" centered hole through the PVC pipe, approximately 6" from the sliding end of the PVC pipe. d. Provide a 1/8" through bolt through the PVC pipe & through the slot in the wood dowel so the slot acts as stops to prevent the dowel from sliding out of the PVC pipe, & from compressing the spring too far. C. Steel End Pins: Drill an approximately 1-3/4" deep hole in the centered ends of both dowels. Cut (2) 12 penny, (12d) nails approximately 2-1/4" long & insert in the drilled holes in both ends of both wood dowels & allow approximately 1/2" of the steel pins to protrude outwards from outer ends of both wood dowels. With a file, provide slightly rounded smooth pin ends where end pins, (nails), will contact front tires. (NOTE: All dimensions above will depend on the "trial & error" exact lengths of the spring, dowels, & locations of through bolts -- if doubtful, not a bad idea to get (2) dowels, one for trial, one for final. Nicer to provide bullet shapes on ends of both dowels so one can better see the position of the pins on the front tires.) D. Provide & secure small chains on each end, dangling 6" from center of PVC strut to bottom end touching floor. E. Wrap masking tape on sliding wood dowel, place tool on engine side & between front tires. With 6" suspended chains touching floor, mark tape at outer end of PVC pipe strut with a fine point black pencil. Roll car backwards approximately 36" until ends of suspended 6" chains contact floor again, & again mark taped wood dowel at end of PVC pipe with a fine point red pencil. F. Remove tool to see toe-in dimension between red & black pencil mark. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 02-08-2015 at 01:44 PM. Reason: typo

02-09-2015, 11:57 AM	#34
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Mitch I tried it today (the tool), then before I could make any adjustments it started to rain. I couldn't believe how far off it was. Now I know why I wore out my last set of front tires so fast. It was off 1/2 in toe in, which would be 7/16ths off. Just a little to much toe in. I think a few years ago I used the chaulk and nail method with a board. Always worked in the past, but this time I think I did it alone and must have messed up. Tires are to expensive to wear them out like this. I have six new tires and will have to paint the rims before putting them on. After 30 years I think I will also put new tubes in.

02-09-2015, 12:43 PM	#36
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In I have to cut the stem and put the metal valve stems in so was going to be around Smith & Jones, SC. I normally buy from Walt, but thought that since I needed to pickup parts for our spring tune up I would save some freight. Do you think there is a difference in quality on the regular tubes? Walt mentions in his catalog 100% new rubber not recycled rubber.

02-09-2015, 12:50 PM	#37
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In yes there is a difference he sells them with metal stems installed also

02-09-2015, 01:08 PM	#38
MrBruce Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 310	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In Yes, I was going to do that until I saw the price. Close to $50.00 a tube and I already have the metal valve stems and did them years ago (never had a leak) which is surprising. I think both of them are selling the regular tubes for the same price so I will go ahead and get them from Walt. He supported us well for our MARC business meeting with ad money so try to support these guys.

02-09-2015, 01:31 PM	#39
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Front End Alignment Changes -- Toe-In FWIW: Before discarding old inner tubes, it may or may not be good to know that I have some tubes in the 1955 Chrysler tires on my homemade boat trailer that still hold air. Forgot what brand tubes, but my guess is they were made here in the U.S. They were bought & installed in 1960, i.e., 54 years old, & still holding air.