The Ford Barn

harrisoncarroll · 06-27-2019, 08:33 PM

Hey guys, I posted a couple months ago that I bought a WWII Military Surplus engine and posted some pics. I though I would give an update.

The engine has been completely disassembled, cleaned, cleaned and cleaned. The block is an 81A Canadian block and heads. 3-1/16 bore, cam has 5T stamped on end (which is a 21A according to web), crank appears to be 41 (crank stamped 11181 Or 11191 kind of hard to read). Heads are “C81-6050 and C81-RH), anyone know anything about these heads? Same as normal 81 heads or high compression? The reason I ask is head to valve clearance was 60th with stock cam (without head gasket).

Engine has been honed, new rings installed and new valve springs. Everything else was in like new condition and reused. I will try to post pics.

Thanks,
Josh

harrisoncarroll · 06-27-2019, 08:41 PM

Initial Pics

harrisoncarroll · 06-27-2019, 08:47 PM

Detailed heads pics

philipswanson · 06-27-2019, 08:53 PM

I have one of these too. What are they worth?

harrisoncarroll · 06-27-2019, 08:56 PM

More pics from earlier disassembly

harrisoncarroll · 06-27-2019, 09:07 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Dennis Carpenter was selling rebuilt motors like these (i.e. 21A motors) with a warranty for $3,800 ten years ago. They no longer have any motors to refurbish. I think they were $4,200 the last couple years. My wife tells me that old car parts are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it so...

philipswanson · 06-28-2019, 09:31 AM

How did you determine that the block was Canadian? My heads have the same numbers on them. Mine was originally purchased from Joblot Automotive at Long Island NY. I got it in a package deal when I bought my 40 wagon in Vermont.

rotorwrench · 06-28-2019, 06:10 PM

The "C" in the prefix designates Canadian. The 3rd oil pressure port started as a Canadian thing for the Universal Carriers they were building even before the war started. Canada kept building the 81A engines pretty much the same before and during the war as far as I know. They didn't have time to do some of the changes that were done here in the US.

The 81A heads were decent enough and have a good compression ratio as long as they haven't been shaved too much. Like any 3 1/16" bore block, they have limitations on how far they can go oversize. There is likely someone out there that needs one for a prewar car or pickup. Most folks hesitate to purchase one that has already been overhauled if they like to do that stuff themselves but there are likely enough folks that wouldn't care out there in resto land.

philipswanson · 06-28-2019, 07:10 PM

Where on the block do you see the "C" prefix? I see the ones on the heads but not block.

harrisoncarroll · 06-28-2019, 07:58 PM

There is a “C” and an arrow pointing to the front of the block on the intake manifold surface near the rear of the block.

harrisoncarroll · 06-28-2019, 08:05 PM

The research I did on Maple Leaf Up agrees with rotorwrench’s post that the engine was likely a CMP or Universal Carrier engine. You have to remember that Canada and the US were helping our British friends with military supplies before we entered the war. All the internals are 41 and the block is a 39-40 variety based on crankshaft journal size and center water passage shape (versus a 1938 1st year 81 block with smaller crank journals and different center water hole shape).

philipswanson · 06-28-2019, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrisoncarroll

There is a “C” and an arrow pointing to the front of the block on the intake manifold surface near the rear of the block.

Can this be seen without pulling the manifold?

harrisoncarroll · 06-28-2019, 10:22 PM

yes

Brian · 06-29-2019, 03:22 PM

In my opinion, that is not an '81A' engine. Canadian blocks have cast into the area either in front of cyl #1 or cyl #5, the series number. Pre war Canadian blocks have the boss at the back where the oil pressure gauge screws cast smaller than that pictured. The pictured boss is larger, squarer and resembles the C59A series.The camshaft timing gear has a 21A prefix, this makes it 42 or later production. The only Canadian no cast number on block, blocks I have seen, are those manufactured through the war. This is a wartime production engine, original application, who knows?

Brian · 06-29-2019, 03:32 PM

"Canada kept building the 81A engines pretty much the same before and during the war as far as I know. They didn't have time to do some of the changes that were done here in the US".

I disagree with this statement....The Canadians implemented many changes that the USA engines never had, eg shell bearings, the oil filter... Also, as I stated in my above post, all the civilian blocks had cast in identifying numbers, ie 81A, 91A,99A,01A,09A, etc, right through to the end...Exception being the military blocks.
The one sticky point is the 81A blocks...the first of them ran the earlier short snout, small journal crank, and yet the blocks still have the same number as the later, large journal 81A blox.

philipswanson · 06-29-2019, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrisoncarroll

There is a “C” and an arrow pointing to the front of the block on the intake manifold surface near the rear of the block.

Which side?

harrisoncarroll · 06-29-2019, 08:26 PM

Block has “81” cast into passenger front side. Pic is before disassembly...

harrisoncarroll · 06-29-2019, 08:30 PM

Engine is at shop but I am pretty sure the “C” stamped at the intake rear surface was on the passenger side.

harrisoncarroll · 06-29-2019, 08:45 PM

Does the Â“4Â” cast into the back of the block near the oil plugs mean anything? 4th series meaning cast in 1942? The block has the water plugs in button of the block, the valve are stainless but early mushroom type, two piece valve guides, hardened valve seats, smooth intake surface and 1941 crank stamped Â“111181 OR 11191Â”. I know this is a bit of an odd engine but everything is standard / brand new internally. Block is crack free and appears unused. It was sold to me as a NOS 221 engine and I believe it after disassembly. Regardless I think it is going to make a nice little, reliable 221 Flathead engine.

harrisoncarroll · 06-29-2019, 08:47 PM

Let’s try that again without the weird A hats above (no idea what happened).

Does the “4” cast into the back of the block near the oil plugs mean anything? 4th series meaning cast in 1942? The block has the water plugs in button of the block, the valve are stainless but early mushroom type, two piece valve guides, hardened valve seats, smooth intake surface and 1941 crank stamped “111181 OR 11191”. I know this is a bit of an odd engine but everything is standard / brand new internally. Block is crack free and appears unused. It was sold to me as a NOS 221 engine and I believe it after disassembly. Regardless I think it is going to make a nice little, reliable 221 Flathead engine.

06-27-2019, 08:53 PM	#4
philipswanson Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bonita, CA Posts: 1,374	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine I have one of these too. What are they worth?

06-27-2019, 09:07 PM	#6
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Dennis Carpenter was selling rebuilt motors like these (i.e. 21A motors) with a warranty for $3,800 ten years ago. They no longer have any motors to refurbish. I think they were $4,200 the last couple years. My wife tells me that old car parts are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it so...

06-28-2019, 09:31 AM	#7
philipswanson Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bonita, CA Posts: 1,374	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine How did you determine that the block was Canadian? My heads have the same numbers on them. Mine was originally purchased from Joblot Automotive at Long Island NY. I got it in a package deal when I bought my 40 wagon in Vermont. Last edited by philipswanson; 06-28-2019 at 10:26 AM.

06-28-2019, 06:10 PM	#8
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine The "C" in the prefix designates Canadian. The 3rd oil pressure port started as a Canadian thing for the Universal Carriers they were building even before the war started. Canada kept building the 81A engines pretty much the same before and during the war as far as I know. They didn't have time to do some of the changes that were done here in the US. The 81A heads were decent enough and have a good compression ratio as long as they haven't been shaved too much. Like any 3 1/16" bore block, they have limitations on how far they can go oversize. There is likely someone out there that needs one for a prewar car or pickup. Most folks hesitate to purchase one that has already been overhauled if they like to do that stuff themselves but there are likely enough folks that wouldn't care out there in resto land.

06-28-2019, 07:10 PM	#9
philipswanson Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bonita, CA Posts: 1,374	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Where on the block do you see the "C" prefix? I see the ones on the heads but not block.

06-27-2019, 08:33 PM	#1
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Update NOS WWII Engine Hey guys, I posted a couple months ago that I bought a WWII Military Surplus engine and posted some pics. I though I would give an update. The engine has been completely disassembled, cleaned, cleaned and cleaned. The block is an 81A Canadian block and heads. 3-1/16 bore, cam has 5T stamped on end (which is a 21A according to web), crank appears to be 41 (crank stamped 11181 Or 11191 kind of hard to read). Heads are “C81-6050 and C81-RH), anyone know anything about these heads? Same as normal 81 heads or high compression? The reason I ask is head to valve clearance was 60th with stock cam (without head gasket). Engine has been honed, new rings installed and new valve springs. Everything else was in like new condition and reused. I will try to post pics. Thanks, Josh

06-28-2019, 07:58 PM	#10
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine There is a “C” and an arrow pointing to the front of the block on the intake manifold surface near the rear of the block.

06-28-2019, 08:05 PM	#11
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine The research I did on Maple Leaf Up agrees with rotorwrench’s post that the engine was likely a CMP or Universal Carrier engine. You have to remember that Canada and the US were helping our British friends with military supplies before we entered the war. All the internals are 41 and the block is a 39-40 variety based on crankshaft journal size and center water passage shape (versus a 1938 1st year 81 block with smaller crank journals and different center water hole shape).

06-28-2019, 10:22 PM	#13
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine yes

06-29-2019, 03:22 PM	#14
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,834	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine In my opinion, that is not an '81A' engine. Canadian blocks have cast into the area either in front of cyl #1 or cyl #5, the series number. Pre war Canadian blocks have the boss at the back where the oil pressure gauge screws cast smaller than that pictured. The pictured boss is larger, squarer and resembles the C59A series.The camshaft timing gear has a 21A prefix, this makes it 42 or later production. The only Canadian no cast number on block, blocks I have seen, are those manufactured through the war. This is a wartime production engine, original application, who knows? __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

06-29-2019, 03:32 PM	#15
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,834	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine "Canada kept building the 81A engines pretty much the same before and during the war as far as I know. They didn't have time to do some of the changes that were done here in the US". I disagree with this statement....The Canadians implemented many changes that the USA engines never had, eg shell bearings, the oil filter... Also, as I stated in my above post, all the civilian blocks had cast in identifying numbers, ie 81A, 91A,99A,01A,09A, etc, right through to the end...Exception being the military blocks. The one sticky point is the 81A blocks...the first of them ran the earlier short snout, small journal crank, and yet the blocks still have the same number as the later, large journal 81A blox. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

06-29-2019, 08:30 PM	#18
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Engine is at shop but I am pretty sure the “C” stamped at the intake rear surface was on the passenger side.

06-29-2019, 08:45 PM	#19
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Does the Â“4Â” cast into the back of the block near the oil plugs mean anything? 4th series meaning cast in 1942? The block has the water plugs in button of the block, the valve are stainless but early mushroom type, two piece valve guides, hardened valve seats, smooth intake surface and 1941 crank stamped Â“111181 OR 11191Â”. I know this is a bit of an odd engine but everything is standard / brand new internally. Block is crack free and appears unused. It was sold to me as a NOS 221 engine and I believe it after disassembly. Regardless I think it is going to make a nice little, reliable 221 Flathead engine.

06-29-2019, 08:47 PM	#20
harrisoncarroll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Let’s try that again without the weird A hats above (no idea what happened). Does the “4” cast into the back of the block near the oil plugs mean anything? 4th series meaning cast in 1942? The block has the water plugs in button of the block, the valve are stainless but early mushroom type, two piece valve guides, hardened valve seats, smooth intake surface and 1941 crank stamped “111181 OR 11191”. I know this is a bit of an odd engine but everything is standard / brand new internally. Block is crack free and appears unused. It was sold to me as a NOS 221 engine and I believe it after disassembly. Regardless I think it is going to make a nice little, reliable 221 Flathead engine.