Inserts vs. Babbitt?

[daveymc29]

So, now that I have to make a choice on the rebuild of my engine, which way to go? Inserts and full oiling or just stick with the babbitt and hope that outlasts me? Any reasoned thinking out there on this subject?
Thanks in advance, Daveymc29

[George Miller]

Depends if you find some one who knows how to do Babbitt the right way. If done right it will out last most of us. But there does not seem to be to many left that do it right.

For me I use inserts, because I can do all the work myself. Started using inserts in the 80 ts.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Davey,

In reply no. 2, George is 100% correct.

Maybe think of it as being similar to a person going to a hospital for brain or heart surgery.

For the most favorable "long lasting" results, the guy handling the knife is of utmost importance.

[Brian T]

I hope this is not considered Hi Jacking the thread so please excuse me if it is, I have read recent posts and opinions regarding this, I am having to make the choice soon, so what would the price difference between the 2 repairs at a shop that uses both methods.
Thanks in advance.

[Kevin in NJ]

The facts:

Either done right will last a long time--
Just that 'done right' clause.

Babbitt will fail gracefully and generally let you go for quite a while before it quites.
Babbitt will eat dirt as this is what the A engine was designed to do and keep running for tens of thousands of miles.

If the insert goes bad it may be quick and you will have to get a tow.
A bad insert is also likely to damage the crank and the block. Both can be repaired at a cost.
Inserts do not like dirt and will be more likely to have issues because of it.

It still boils down to a paying the bucks for a person that has a reputation for a job that runs right and keeps running.

Personally, I believe you are better off with babbitt.

[daveymc29]

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I went to a shop in the Central Valley of CA. Just in round figures it seemed an inserted and full oiling system would be about 1000 to 1500 more than their counter weighted, balanced babbitted rebuild with the "B" cam grind. I told them to do the latter, but am having some second thoughts, however I got 25K or so out of the original that may or may not have been rebuilt. There was a strong indication to me that I may have been sold a piece that was not re-babbitted, just refitting of the bearings, (re-shimmed.)

[Mitch//pa]

why not insert without pressure...
thats the way i go plus i rather not be held hostage by the babbitt gods
think modern

[Duffy1]

Suggest you do a search on babbitts . I have read these threads and post on babbitts and it is very clear that pouring and machining babbitt takes a tremendous amount of time,knowledge,craftsmanship,skill,etc.,etc,. . There are only a few of these craftsmen left today. Babbitt is a one shot deal . You either do it right the first time or start from scratch and do it a second time. For these reasons most big time engine builders are going to inserts . More variables putting in babbitt vs inserts.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

One thing to consider has much to do with the type crankshaft being used, and who will be the mechanic.

First, most Babbitt will need adjusting as it wears, and if the crankshaft has counterweights you will not be able to remove the rear main cap with the engine still in the car thus requiring the engine to be removed. If this task needs to be outsourced, factor in that cost against the insert up-grade costs.

Second, I think it also depends on who is doing the Babbitt adjusting. If this task will be hired out to a mechanic, the costs associated with this operation is offset by the up-charge to install the inserts.

[daveymc29]

Thanks, seems I'm probably going to stick with babbitt. Funny how age has made so much difference. About twenty years ago I had never seen under the hood of a Model A. Had a bad engine in my machine so I went to a friends house and he was to help me pul and install this engine. He got called to work, I was miles out in the country in a strange shop, strange tools and first time under the hood. I had the new engine in before he got home, just in time to hear me start it up. This time it was stripped of head and pan, radiator removed and it took me half a day to remove it from that point, in my own garage with better tools and non-fixed lift. More cuts and bruises also.
Cheers, Daveymc29

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Thanks, seems I'm probably going to stick with babbitt. Funny how age has made so much difference. About twenty years ago I had never seen under the hood of a Model A. Had a bad engine in my machine so I went to a friends house and he was to help me pul and install this engine. He got called to work, I was miles out in the country in a strange shop, strange tools and first time under the hood. I had the new engine in before he got home, just in time to hear me start it up. This time it was stripped of head and pan, radiator removed and it took me half a day to remove it from that point, in my own garage with better tools and non-fixed lift. More cuts and bruises also.
Cheers, Daveymc29

Hey Davey,
Well, you certainly are doing the correct thing by asking/seeking advice here. And, it doesn't cost a cent,eh !
IMO, a lot of guys are in same situation as you and watch these threads for same reasons as you asked. The problem is that the darn answers, to you questions, are not that easy either. As in , some areas do not have the 'artists' that can do either/or poured Babbitt or Babbitt inserts. So what do you tell a guy who asks such question in that case ? If I lived in the area of a couple of our skilled fellow barners, I know that I'd have had them do full inserts !

But, take my current case as example of poured Babbitt rods/mains. I bought a B block from an old timer who since died. He had run the B with OHV head and pressure. At some point he had rebabbitted both rods/mains...and that's where I came in. I got a C crank from a fordbarn 'buddy' and am using the rods/mains, as they are... WITHOUT shims...0015 clearance. Crap shoot ? Maybe, but I've been convinced that it would be a big waste to discard what I already had. And, I could not locate a nearby 'artist' who could do the inserts ! Shipping engine...no thanks, not with my experiences and Murphy hanging about !

We'll see how it comes out. As said...it's old technology, and although I'm near old as the engine, my tech is not great. Hey, I've heard that poured Babbitt Bs have run over 150 mph on salt using same setup as I'm working !

[Bader]

John cook,chandler arizona,Babbitt and inserts does nice work, call Sam at az model a for his number.

[Growley bear]

I agree with George in Post #2.

Chet

[Glenn C.]

In my opinion a good babbiting job, and line boring are difficult to find, along with reasonable shipping costs. With that in mind, it is my opinion we are somewhat being forced into using inserts, along with pressure oiling.
A good type of carb filter, along with the use of a full flow oil filtration system, should also be used on inserted engines.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Try to figure out which automaker today still uses Babbitt, and if you find out nobody does, try to figure out if it's because it's too expensive to pour or because it's inferior.

If you putter around like the Waltons at about 20 to 25mph, competently poured Babbitt certainly will do the job for years to come. If you drive faster, rev higher, consider a higher compression head, full inserts are a no-brainer in my book. It's like still using non-detergent 30 grade oil. Yes, your engine will run "fine" with it, but it's not state-of-the-art anymore.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Sounds like a topic for a U.S. Supreme Court Decision; or maybe have it addressed at the next UN Assembly -- just as well to include a decision on whitewall tires.

[George Miller]

Even with inserts, you need to find a machinist that knows what he or she is doing. Some think it is a simple task. It might look simple but it takes experience to do it right. For example if you are using a boring machine that was made for Babbitt and the boring bar is running out in the center lets say .010. now you use the two centering cones on number one and number 3 main bearing. then you clamp down your 3 boring bar supports. You will now have a center main that is off the center line .005 . That will make for a nice bind when you try to turn the crank. The crank will have to bend as it is turning.
Plus you better hope the guy who bored it last bored it on the right center line, if not your cam gear will not have the right back lash. The crank needs to be on the original center line like it was from the factory. There is more but that is a start.

[PC/SR]

Insert bearings are not better than babbitt, they are just easier and cheaper to mass produce, and easily replaceable.
Now that I think about it, how did Henry do it? At the height of production in 1929 he was turning out over 100,000 engines a month (x 4 for rods). That is a lot of guys pouring babbitt and line boring. Popping in inserts would sure be easier.

[peters180a/170b]

if you read about old HENRY he was a cheap ass ! that's why he was pouring babbit and not inserts. I went with inserts [ twice] 2 motors/2 cars and never looked back

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

Try to figure out which automaker today still uses Babbitt, and if you find out nobody does, try to figure out if it's because it's too expensive to pour or because it's inferior.
.

What material is used to make an bearing insert?