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Old 04-05-2021, 05:32 PM   #301
Synchro909
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
Chris, You started this thread, I assumed it was for a Burtz block.
Ditto.
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:59 PM   #302
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Something to keep in mind on the oil pumps, while the motor is set up to run a full pressurized system, the oil pump drive mechanism is marginal.
The stock Mod "A" had a transfer pump, not a pressure pump.
If you attempt to run too much oil pressure, it will prematurely wear the stock drive unit.
I have found a moderate pressure works well with stock drive assembly. If you think you are going racing it is wise to use a pump driven off the cam or a belt from crank.

John
Hey John,
Do you have any source info to share as to who makes a CAM driven pump ?
I know that you make race engines (B-Ville, etc) , so what pressure is TOO much for this Ford drive mechanism, ie- 55lbs ?
Is there a substitute drive that is more durable... in place of the STOCK ford equipment ?

Last edited by hardtimes; 04-05-2021 at 07:02 PM. Reason: .........
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:35 PM   #303
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When Ford started running pressurised bearings in the B engine, what pressure did they run? Not much. I believe the early V8s only ran about 11 psi. I have a diamond B engine in one of my cars and the oil pressure warning light trips on at 9 psi. I don't know what it runs while operating but I don't think it is much more. When the engine is hot and idling, the light flickers.
I believe that there is too much emphasis on high oil pressure. Look at the trial engine Terry had built and they left out a plug from the main oil gallery, resulting in very little pressure. It survived all attempts to destroy it, yet here we are asking whether 50 psi is OK. I think I'll be aiming at about 25 psi. That should give the bearings plenty and preserve the drive gears. If they were to fail, you would have zero pressure immediately but the bottom end will likely survive because the engine would stop with no drive to the distributor. An automatic protection but a tow home.
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:38 PM   #304
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Rick,
no source I have seen for the cam driven pump assy, I have made a few but gets pretty expensive.
Pumps are easy, Aviad, Barnes, Dailey, too many to list.

I haven't put much thought into the drive mechanism, hmm, maybe.

Stock drive, I don't know what is too much. I run about 30 hot/cold.

FWIW, the Model "B" motor did not run pressure, the oil galley has a pretty big hole to dump the excess oil out.

J
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:41 PM   #305
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
When Ford started running pressurised bearings in the B engine, what pressure did they run? Not much. I believe the early V8s only ran about 11 psi. I have a diamond B engine in one of my cars and the oil pressure warning light trips on at 9 psi. I don't know what it runs while operating but I don't think it is much more. When the engine is hot and idling, the light flickers.
I believe that there is too much emphasis on high oil pressure. Look at the trial engine Terry had built and they left out a plug from the main oil gallery, resulting in very little pressure. It survived all attempts to destroy it, yet here we are asking whether 50 psi is OK. I think I'll be aiming at about 25 psi. That should give the bearings plenty and preserve the drive gears. If they were to fail, you would have zero pressure immediately but the bottom end will likely survive because the engine would stop with no drive to the distributor. An automatic protection but a tow home.
it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:37 PM   #306
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
I agree.
The dist is driven off the cam.
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:45 PM   #307
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The old "basic rule" was that 10 psi of oil pressure was needed for every 1000 RPM.

Under the old rule, you should have 25 psi for 2500 RPM.

The basic rule is no longer applicable with modern metallurgy and lubricants.

One thing that may have helped the low oil pressure problem is that the "New Engine" connecting rod journals are cross-drilled and this provides 2 places where oil can enter the bearing ensuring an adequate supply of oil.

During the 1st day of engineering evaluation testing of the "New Engine", we used cheap semi-synthetic motor oil, ran it for 6 hours at 3100 RPM (75 MPH), had 4 psi oil pressure because of an open 5/16 inch diameter hole venting the main oil galley, had an average water temperature of 190 degrees F, and had an average oil temperature of 263 degrees F. On the 2nd day of testing at a more realistic speed of 2100 RPM, we again had 4 psi oil pressure, had an average water temperature of 168 degrees F, once had an accidental head temperature at the spot where we were measuring water temperature of 260 degrees F when we inadvertently ran it out of water, and an average oil temperature of 180 degrees F. On the 3rd day of testing, the engine was in a car and climbed Overlook Mountain that is west of Boulder CO. A chart of the test data can be found in the September 2020 update.
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Old 04-06-2021, 07:53 PM   #308
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Likely already been asked but will the new block pass fine point judging? Wayne
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:12 AM   #309
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
We were talking about wear on the skew gears at the cam shaft. If they fail, the engine will stop but like you say if the failure was at the tang, it would not and the bottom end would be toast.
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:16 AM   #310
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

No it will not pass fine point judging.

Let someone else enjoy all the fun of fine point judging.

These engines are made for driving.
See you on the road.

Richard
Anaheim CA
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Old 04-07-2021, 02:27 AM   #311
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Likely already been asked but will the new block pass fine point judging? Wayne
Hey Wayne,
It SHOULD PASS.
I’d like to hear why it should not pass ...anyone !
I understand the idea of judging.
But honestly how many judged cars have ‘hidden’ ... alterations/ improvements... and still pass. Nothing against restorers. Dedicated / hardcore restorer is to be respected for their dedication to faithful Ford original parts and specs.
Pragmatic experienced model A owners, who are sick tired of throwing tons of $ at 90 yr old blocks... should not be disregarded penalized for using a block that will allow them more safety and interest in our hobby.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:54 AM   #312
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Disclosure: my car is certainly a driver, but IMO if the new block is very hard to tell externally from a stocker, it should pass judging and only be a factor as a tie-breaker. That would require the owner's honesty, though.
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Old 04-07-2021, 09:11 AM   #313
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That is a problem with the internet, everyone has looked at the castings for the block, including the judges. If you know where to look, you can identify the differences.
Same for the racing community, the competition directors have all the pictures.

Sorry, just an observation, J
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Old 04-07-2021, 09:28 AM   #314
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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We were talking about wear on the skew gears at the cam shaft. If they fail, the engine will stop but like you say if the failure was at the tang, it would not and the bottom end would be toast.
Just to be clear, I did not mention the gears. But, it is an issue with wear.
Some come out of motors and the gear has razor sharp teeth.

Ever notice how you need to keep tabs on the timing? Other than point wear, point cam wear, the drive gear teeth will also wear and contribute to timing losses.

The oil pressure rule of thumb of 10psi per 1000 rpm is not necessarily right or wrong. It depends on the application and the design of the bearings. The Model "A" and "B" are designed for very low pressure. The testing of the engine with very low pressures just confirms that fact.

FWIW, I ran 90psi in the race car once by accident. Not paying too much attention to the regulator after cleaning and reassembly. No problems or leaks.
But I did turn the pressure back down once I noticed it.

All good, lets see some of the motors on the road, John
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Old 04-07-2021, 06:52 PM   #315
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
Chris, You started this thread, I assumed it was for a Burtz block.
Much like I assumed that his filter would work for a Ford block.
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Old 04-07-2021, 07:48 PM   #316
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Much like I assumed that his filter would work for a Ford block.
And did it. Don’t understand your response !
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:33 PM   #317
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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And did it. Don’t understand your response !
It is in response to the new oil filter kit three pages back.
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Old 04-14-2021, 09:13 PM   #318
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The CORRECT&RIGHT NATIONAL oil seal part numbers are: 415953N,
455035N,
455953N,
These are ALL high-temperature (polyacrylate) double lip spring loaded,
Arnold Chivers has specified C/R 39930 which's also double lipped spring loaded design &with a polyacrylate lip.Both C/R &NATIONAL are USA made,
With C/R being a part of SKF&NATIONAL a part of FM(Federal Mogul).
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Old 04-15-2021, 10:46 AM   #319
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The National 415035 seal specified in the "Builders Guide" has a nitrile lip and is a commonly stocked part.

If you look on page 58 in the National Seal Catalog (https://www.timken.com/wp-content/up...talog_7707.pdf), you will find many seals for a 4-inch diameter shaft and a 5-inch diameter housing bore that will work in the "New Engine".

The 415035 seal is in bold type which means that it is readily available.

The 415953N, 455035N, and 455953N seals have lips made from Acrylates that can withstand higher temperatures than nitrile. These seals are not in bold type and have an asterisk next to their number. At the bottom of the page, the asterisk is explained as "Non-Stock Item, Special Order".
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Old 04-15-2021, 12:10 PM   #320
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I had the pleasure of meeting with Terry and inspecting the new engine next to the original block he’s patterned it after. Looked at what I thought was a flaw in the new block, I then compared it to the original right next to it. They were identical! The internals were finely cast and machined. I dare anyone to see the difference externally. For those that doubt me, I have seen new cylinder heads with a rougher texture than original castings, and slightly undersized but this block is identical I can tell you!
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