Running rough, won't start after it dies.

[GregLast]

Hey everyone.

I just got my grandfathers 31 Coupe back to the house and I can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong.

It's been sitting in his garage for the last 4 months, largely untouched. He was great about giving it some attention on a regular basis, and since his passing I have taken the car out 3 times to put a little gas in it, start it up, let it idle, and then drive it around the section line. All that went pretty smooth, once the battery was charged. I did have to charge the battery every time, but no more than 30 minutes and it would let me start the car.

Trailered it to my place and let the battery charge all day yesterday out of the car. I put the battery in the car, and drove around the neighborhood. After about 20 minutes of driving, it became harder to start the car and keep it running, and eventually wouldn't start at all. I let it sit on the charger overnight, and this morning it started ok, not awesome, and I was able to let it idle for a couple minutes, then it died, it will not start now.

When it is running, it's not running smooth like it was before we trailered it to the house. It's rough, I've had a few backfires, and sometimes it acts like it wants more gas, and starts to die, and then finds some and gives me another turn of the engine.

I have no clue where to start.

[Bob C]

How old it the battery, also charge it up and then load test it.
Is the generator charging?

Bob

[bobpo1]

Also with that car sitting so long, you may well have a fuel restriction problem. Maybe drain the tank and clean it out as good as you can and make sure your getting a good flow of fuel.

Good Luck and Thanks for taking over the Ol' Lady, give her some TLC and you'll be a happy Model A owner. I have learned so much on this site.

As said previously, make sure you have a good battery and an GREAT GROUND.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Model A's are + ground, so be sure the larger positive post goes to the ground strap.

Just to be sure the generator is polarized jump across the two cutout terminals for 1/2 second with the battery installed. The key won't have to be on for this.

[GregLast]

The battery is in there good, I just wonder if it's time for a new one.

The rough idle is more concerning.


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[Chuck Sea/Tac]

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It sounds like you may have two problems. If you have to charge the battery to start, is tat because it turns over slow? Check connections, an battery/ charging(as mentioned).
The bad running could be gas, or electrical. So make sure the battery , generator is working good, then we can move to the next potential solution.

[Tacoma Bob]

Agree with all the above. IF the battery is sound I would guess the charging system is next. That could be why it's running rough. The battery may be doing all the work. ( firing the plugs).

[1931 flamingo]

Ck fuel flow at the carb. Verify the point gap.
Are you familiar with the spark advance lever on the steering column??
Have you adjusted the GAV??
Paul in CT

[Mitch//pa]

where are u located? maybe someone can help.....

[GregLast]

Excellent! That's why I love this place. You guys have my head moving in a good direction.

I'll get the battery replaced either tonight or tomorrow. I'm not sure how long he's had that one but it's acting like its spent.

How could I check the generator? I have a multimeter. Is there an article I could read that would walk me through?


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[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by GregLast

Excellent! That's why I love this place. You guys have my head moving in a good direction.

I'll get the battery replaced either tonight or tomorrow. I'm not sure how long he's had that one but it's acting like its spent.

How could I check the generator? I have a multimeter. Is there an article I could read that would walk me through?


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First things first. Is the generator charging ? It doesn't sound like it is. With the engine running at a fast idle the ammeter should show a charge of at least 3-4 amps.
If not charging the first to do is polarize the generator as Tom stated.

[GregLast]

I cannot get this car to start.

It acts like it wants to but when I think it's trying, it stops!


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[GregLast]

I've checked that there is good clean fuel running to the carb. Carb is a Zenith. Battery registers as 6.2 V DC on the meter.

After trying to start it a few times, I noticed a little smoke coming from the distributor. It's not smoking now, even after trying to start it a couple more times.

I jumped the generator contacts with the battery connected.


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[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Model A's are + ground, so be sure the larger positive post goes to the ground strap.

Just to be sure the generator is polarized jump across the two cutout terminals for 1/2 second with the battery installed. The key won't have to be on for this.

And that you've got a good clean connection to the frame --was not, better now.

[GregLast]

Man. Ok.

I replaced the battery. New battery reads 6.2V. It turns the engine over but doesn't start. Just keeps cranking. I checked the plugs and they were black, so I took a little sandpaper in between lightly.

I'm out of ideas.

[Mitch//pa]

i repeat post # 9

[1crosscut]

When you are cranking are you getting spark?
Pull a plug and let it rest against the head with the plug attached and see if you have spark at the plug.
If not it could be several things. Perhaps the points need cleaned and adjusted.

[bambooboy]

greg,its time to start over. do a search on here for starting &running procedure.try that, then clean gas,spark at fairly clean plugs as stated above.as a newby myself it takes some time to get used to an 80 year old car.did grandpa have any books on model A's, if not i have found everything right here just doing a search. tom

[GregLast]

I'm familiar with the starting procedure, and I know it has fresh gas (I put it in there). I've checked to make sure fuel is flowing free to the carb. I got it to turn run just a little, but it acted like it was gasping for air, and I saw a little white smoke come from under car (from the carb), then it shut down again.

When the key is off and I press the starter button, it shouldn't try and turn over, right? It does.

[GregLast]

I do have some books, and I've been reading those and searching here for things I can try.

[Fred S]

Originally Posted by GregLast

I'm familiar with the starting procedure, and I know it has fresh gas (I put it in there). I've checked to make sure fuel is flowing free to the carb. I got it to turn run just a little, but it acted like it was gasping for air, and I saw a little white smoke come from under car (from the carb), then it shut down again.

When the key is off and I press the starter button, it shouldn't try and turn over, right? It does.

The starter will run no matter what the key position is.

[1crosscut]

Originally Posted by GregLast

I'm familiar with the starting procedure, and I know it has fresh gas (I put it in there). I've checked to make sure fuel is flowing free to the carb. I got it to turn run just a little, but it acted like it was gasping for air, and I saw a little white smoke come from under car (from the carb), then it shut down again.

When the key is off and I press the starter button, it shouldn't try and turn over, right? It does.

\

Was there any gas left in the tank when you put fresh gas in? Adding fresh to a little stale fuel will cause problems.

All the nuts and bolts tight on your carburetor and intake manifold?

Your starter will operate regardless of key position.

Still need to know if you have spark.

[GregLast]

I'll pull a plug and see what I get there. If I used the test light correctly, I'm seeing current on the movable points arm.

There was gas in the tank before I added new. It's not much, so I will drain it all and put some new in and try it out.

[old ford fan]

Back to basics... make sure you try starting with choke open first and than close it while cranking. Remove plugs and check compression. Double check your timing and make absolutely sure you have a good strong spark across the points. Check plugs....if they remain dry after cranking while choked, you are probably not getting fuel into cylinders. A trick I have used to start my old ford tractor is to hold my hand over carb intake while cranking with key off to make sure I am drawing plenty of fuel into cylinders than I remove
plugs to make sure they are wet. As stated earlier, lay a plug on the block and crank engine watching for good strong blue spark. Try to check spark out of the sunlight so you can see it decently. finally, I thought I read something about white smoke? This could be a sign of coolant in the combustion chamber. You will usually smell coolant but water is not noticeable. You can learn a lot when you test compression.

[GregLast]

Ok. Replaced the gas and pulled a plug. I saw a good blue spark. So I know it's getting that far. Tried starting it choked after the new gas and it tried to start and limped along, but now it's back to not starting.

[1955cj5]

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I think you will need to remove and clean your carburetor...it sounds to me like something got in there and is either plugging the float valve or a jet....

[GregLast]

Excellent. I'll put the car back in the garage tonight and I'll put the battery on the charger and do some reading on the Zenith carb tonight. Hopefully tomorrow I can get this car back on the road.

[GregLast]

I haven't seen any more smoke since this one time. I got into the distributor and cleaned contacts today and haven't been having any problems with smoke. Now it just won't start. The carb looks like it's dripping gas. It would make sense that I might need to clean it.

I'm in Oklahoma City. It was 110F today. I'm keeping that GAV pretty close to shut. I wish it was 50F here.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Someone mentioned a compression test. Can you do this? Local clubs can usually lend you a compression gauge. It's good to join a local club. White smoke from carb? Sounds funny. But if you have white smoke coming from your tail pipe, it would be water in the combustion chamber (not good), indicating a leak in the head gasket from a water cooling chamber into a combustion chamber, and would also make the engine run rough. Chuck

[GregLast]

Got out and cleaned the spark plugs and disassembled/reassembled the carb. There was plenty of fuel in the bowl and it didn't have a whole lot of junk in it. The jets all seemed to be clear. The carb is leaking a lot out of the side. I checked the float and it didn't see to be stuck.

Car still only catches every now and then.

I cranked the engine manually, slowly, and each rotation was hard like normal.

[miff]

The starter will turn over with the key on or off.

[GregLast]

I reached out to my local club last night to see if I could get some help with it.

[old ford fan]

Sounds like it's not getting fuel. Try starting while choked and hold choke partially closed to keep it running. Throttle the choke opened / closed as necessary to keep it running. If you can keep it running, your problem is in the fuel supply between tank and carb. If not, you should perform a compression test and post the results. Either way, let us know.

[GregLast]

Let's say the car doesn't pass muster on a compression test. What kind of job am I looking at? I can do it, just don't like surprises.

[GregLast]

P.S. You have all been extremely helpful in organizing my thoughts and giving me a direction to go in. I was really scared to take anything apart at first, and now I feel like I can do this and am learning a lot.

Thanks for everything so far. I'll keep everyone posted and post a video when it's running again!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Where are you located?

Battery in question........you should always start by slow charging the battery for 8 to 12 hours, then do a load test. No use to replace a good battery.........which you may have done.

When charging a battery be sure to feel each of the cells every so often, and if any feel hot then turn off the charger and trade in the battery.

If you have gas dripping from the carb intake, then you should have gas to at least fire, if not run.

Before things get replaced or taken apart needlessly, it best to have someone experienced give a helping hand (in person).

[GregLast]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Where are you located?

Battery in question........you should always start by slow charging the battery for 8 to 12 hours, then do a load test. No use to replace a good battery.........which you may have done.

If you have gas dripping from the carb intake, then you should have gas to at least fire, if not run.

Before things get replaced or taken apart needlessly, it best to have someone experienced give a helping hand (in person).

I'm in Oklahoma City. I reached out to the Sooner Model A Club last night. I live really close to the park that they meet at, so that's a bonus!

I am aware that I may have replaced a good battery. I'm ok with that. I don't know how long that battery was in the car and if it's not bad, I have an extra now. I got the new battery for a really good deal.

I am more than open to a helping hand in person.

[1crosscut]

Try this to see if it will fire for a short time. Pull all of your plugs out and crank the engine over for several revolutions. Then put a teaspoon of gas in each cylinder. Pop the plugs back in a crank it over and see if it wants to catch and run for a few seconds.

[GregLast]

https://vimeo.com/134575332

Alright. We have some sort of progress!!

[1crosscut]

Your video sounds to me like an engine running with the spark fully retarded at low throttle. Does the engine speed change when you advance the spark? What happens when it is running like shown in the video and you press the accelerator pedal?

[GregLast]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

Your video sounds to me like an engine running with the spark fully retarded at low throttle. Does the engine speed change when you advance the spark? What happens when it is running like shown in the video and you press the accelerator pedal?

The video is of the car running with the spark lever up and the throttle lever up as well. When I moved the spark lever to advance the timing, it started to struggle. When I give it a little gas, it's struggles. I'm running it pretty lean on the GAV.

I've run the battery down cranking it tonight. Going to let it charge and try again tomorrow.

[Brentwood Bob]

Try with the GAV 1 turn open and the throttle lever down 2 clicks. After it starts turn the GAV back to 1/2 turn.
Let us know what the local guy does. You are getting close.
Bob

[old ford fan]

Greg, how did you get it to run? Did you pour gas into the cylinders? Did you choke it? Also, I really think you need to use the timing pin to locate the camshaft timing gear dimple and make sure #1 cylinder is TDC on compression stroke when pin drops into dimple. Do a search on timing and you will find several different very detailed descriptions on how to properly set timing. The engine should not sputter and die when you advance the timing lever.

[GregLast]

Well, truth be told, I started cleaning any electrical connection I could find. I took the coil cable and placed it next to a head nut and opened the points. I got an inconsistent spark in the points, and I got a really weak spark at the head nut. So, I cleaned the points real good, and took the plugs out again and cleaned them again. I also cleaned up the copper leads and the tops of the plugs. After this she started up and ran for a few seconds. I can at least get it to do this more than once now!

I have the name of a local guy, and I'm sending an email to him today.

I definitely need to check the timing, it doesn't seem to be too hard after watching a couple videos.

[GregLast]

https://vimeo.com/134623336

I think I got it! I think I just had to figure out the GAV and CLEAN ALL THE ELECTRICAL THINGS.

[1crosscut]

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Wonderful!
Let us know how it drives.