Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

[Merc Cruzer]

What application, Ford or Mercury, would this pulley, with the casting number B 16, be for?

[tubman]

"B 16" looks more like a date code than a casting number to me. I'll take a SWAG and say narrow belt 8BA.

[cadillac512]

I'm holding a '53 Merc pulley right now that looks same as yours. 3/8" belts, closest sheave to rear of engine 6 1/8" dia. and smaller is 5 1/4". Center of large sheave is 2.0" from rear of hub,smaller is 3/4" forward of that.


No numbers at all on mine.


Terry

[19Fordy]

I have an 8BA pulley that looks similar to that shown except it has 3 reinforcing webs on the backside. One web is on each spoke. Both are narrow belt pulleys. Large pulley is 6 in. dia. Smaller pulley is 5 and 1/4. Each measurement was taken at front of each sheave. Crank hole is a tiny bit less than 1 5/16.

[Merc Cruzer]

On mine the closest sheave to rear of engine 6 1/8" dia. too. I am not finding Ford and Mercury pulleys with part number cast in to them.

If you draw a line directly up from the keyway to the top of the pulley, the timing "button" appears top be 1" to the right of the top of the line.

19F0rdy & cadillac512: Is that the same on yours?

[51 MERC-CT]

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Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

On mine the closest sheave to rear of engine 6 1/8" dia. too. I am not finding Ford and Mercury pulleys with part number cast in to them.

If you draw a line directly up from the keyway to the top of the pulley, the timing "button" appears top be 1" to the right of the top of the line.

19F0rdy & cadillac512: Is that the same on yours?

I had previously posted a version of this ('50-'51) pulley on your first inquiry.

I can't see where other than an 8RT or 6cyl pulley there would be any functional difference in '50-'53 Ford or Mercury.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

On mine the closest sheave to rear of engine 6 1/8" dia. too. I am not finding Ford and Mercury pulleys with part number cast in to them.

If you draw a line directly up from the keyway to the top of the pulley, the timing "button" appears top be 1" to the right of the top of the line.

19F0rdy & cadillac512: Is that the same on yours?

Yes, same as mine.



Terry

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

I had previously posted a version of this ('50-'51) pulley on your first inquiry.

I can't see where other than an 8RT or 6cyl pulley there would be any functional difference in '50-'53 Ford or Mercury.

Thank you, I appreciate your input, as I continue to look for an anomaly that might offer an explanation.

[Hoop]

Which pulley are we working with? You said you replaced a 2belt with a 3belt. Which one are you having the timing dot problem with?

You are showing us the 2belt.

If it's the 3belt on the car, remove, inspect and measure that one.

[51 MERC-CT]

I suspect that the distributor is not correctly aligned with the drive gear.
With the #1 piston top dead center and pointer on the dot.
The rotor should be in line with the #1 position on the dist.cap
If it is not then pull out the dist. far enough to rotate to the next gear location that will put the rotor closest to the correct position on the cap when touching the clamp pad, then lock in place.

Disregard any previously installed markings on the clamp pad.
From this point the timing should be able to be set.

[19Fordy]

Here's some photos showing my 8BA pulley agrees with your pulley re: 1 inch measurement. If there were any casting marks or part # I think they may have been drilled out during balancing process. I couldn't find any ID marks on the pulley. It is a casting.

[Hoop]

"I suspect that the distributor is not correctly aligned with the drive gear.
With the #1 piston top dead center and pointer on the dot."

51 Merc, he established TDC using the cable tie method. When the piston is at TDC the pointer does not point to the dot.

That's the problem.

It has nothing to do with the distributor or the ignition timing. That dot is never going to be TDC.

How many times per crankshaft revolution does a spark occur? ... for a V8? ... for a 6? How many degrees apart for the V8? How many for the 6?

Inspect the slot ... measure the dot. (On the one with the problem.) Then go from there.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

I suspect that the distributor is not correctly aligned with the drive gear.
With the #1 piston top dead center and pointer on the dot.
The rotor should be in line with the #1 position on the dist.cap
If it is not then pull out the dist. far enough to rotate to the next gear location that will put the rotor closest to the correct position on the cap when touching the clamp pad, then lock in place.

Disregard any previously installed markings on the clamp pad.
From this point the timing should be able to be set.

I was only able to confirm the TDC with the finger test. Finger in the plug hole and turn over the engine until it blows the finger out of the hole. Then line up the dot with the pointer. Cap on the distributor, pointer to #1 plug, pointer showing rotor position with cap off. I think this will confirm the one tooth off explanation. Looks like rotate one tooth counterclockwise?

[Hoop]

From your earlier post after suggestions that you use the cable tie method, you posted #31:

"Ok folks, I have to admit putting a foreign object into the cylinder, of a perfectly good engine would have not been my first choice. But here it is. Bottom line, the new TDC, is still 1 1/2" off the original pulley marker."


Now you admit:

"I was only able to confirm the TDC with the finger test. Finger in the plug hole and turn over the engine until it blows the finger out of the hole. Then line up the dot with the pointer."

Nice work confusing us.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

I was only able to confirm the TDC with the finger test. Finger in the plug hole and turn over the engine until it blows the finger out of the hole. Then line up the dot with the pointer. Cap on the distributor, pointer to #1 plug, pointer showing rotor position with cap off. I think this will confirm the one tooth off explanation. Looks like rotate one tooth counterclockwise?

With the pointer and dimple lined up, this is appox. where the rotor should be located. And it does appear that the rotor should be relocated.

[Merc Cruzer]

This is what one tooth, counter clockwise, looks like:

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

This is what one tooth, counter clockwise, looks like:

Looks OK, now rotate the distributor (CCW) to bring the rotor to where it will be in alignment with the cap #1 position. lock it down and start it up.
Should be good to go for timing adjustment.

[19Fordy]

Just a thought. You might want to consider replacing the
distributor hold down bolt with a stud to save wear and tear on the threads.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Just a thought. You might want to consider replacing the
distributor hold down bolt with a stud to save wear and tear on the threads.

Thanks for the suggestion, but once I get this right, believe me, I have no intention of touching it again!

[19Fordy]

Don't worry. After this learning lesson you will be an expert on installing and setting your distributor. Now, you can remove it and reinstall it again without anxiety. Good job.

[Merc Cruzer]

Between this and the prior postings:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...+53%27+Mercury

My hope is that someone else will be able to use it in the future.

[JWL]

How would distributor orientation have anything to do with pulley-TDC location??

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by JWL

How would distributor orientation have anything to do with pulley-TDC location??

It was the "artificial" TDC location on the pulley, that was established by the distributor being one tooth off.

The TDC button (timing mark) on the far left, on the pulley, is the correct TDC (actually 2 degrees off). The mark on the far right of the pulley was the "artificial" TDC with the distributor one tooth off.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Looks OK, now rotate the distributor (CCW) to bring the rotor to where it will be in alignment with the cap #1 position. lock it down and start it up.
Should be good to go for timing adjustment.

One final issue: I moved the rotor one tooth counter clockwise, as pictured yesterday. Took the vacuum line off the vacuum advance pod, plunged it and then set the timing. Everything is good and the timing is right on, using the timing button and the pointer.

The issue is that in order to get the timing correct, the vacuum pod is literally pushed into the thermostat housing, and will not allow any further rotation/ advance adjustment. Have you seen this previously?

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

One final issue: I moved the rotor one tooth counter clockwise, as pictured yesterday. Took the vacuum line off the vacuum advance pod, plunged it and then set the timing. Everything is good and the timing is right on, using the timing button and the pointer.

The issue is that in order to get the timing correct, the vacuum pod is literally pushed into the thermostat housing, and will not allow any further rotation/ advance adjustment. Have you seen this previously?

Yes, had the same situation.

You can rotate the distributor and rotor 1 tooth clock wise, remembering to keep the rotor at the same #1 cap location.
This moves the distributor about 32 .72° or 1 inch at the cap O.D.

[19Fordy]

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Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you can rewire the plugs on the distributor cap to make any terminal #1. That would allow distributer rotation for diafragham clearance.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you can rewire the plugs on the distributor cap to make any terminal #1. That would allow distributer rotation for diafragham clearance.

Correct that you could make any cap location #1 but if just rotating the distributor corrects the problem why relocate wires?

[40cpe]

BUT moving the distributor one tooth doesn't change the TDC location on the pulley. The OP said he verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the factory timing button. The car ran well while timed to the verified location. It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button. How does it run now?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

BUT moving the distributor one tooth doesn't change the TDC location on the pulley. The OP said he verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the factory timing button. The car ran well while timed to the verified location. It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button. How does it run now?

You are correct: "It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button"

This should have read: "verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the of the new TDC mark on the pulley." Sorry for the confusion.

Starts easier and sounds good. It snowed last night, so the test run will be some time this weekend, once the roads are clear again. Also this confirms, my timing light, works as it should.The timing light was the first suspect.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Correct that you could make any cap location #1 but if just rotating the distributor corrects the problem why relocate wires?

Good point. Thanks.

[tubman]

Back in the day when I was buying $100 junkers for my daily transportation, just about all of them would benefit greatly with a simple tune-up. I would be willing to bet that over half of the cars I worked on had the plug wires in the wrong positions. It was just easier to change the wires than to re-stab an improperly installed distributor. I had a '68 Corvette that had a mis-wired distributor and a slipped harmonic balancer. The car ran great the way it was, but it took me over a year to figure out what was wrong and fix it. The only symptom was that it wouldn't run for shit when it appeared to be timed correctly.

[JWL]

Here is the point---If the engine performed BEST with timing flashing 1 1/2 inches from TDC it should continue running at its best at that 1 1/2 inch location no matter how many distributor teeth are relocated.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by JWL

Here is the point---If the engine performed BEST with timing flashing 1 1/2 inches from TDC it should continue running at its best at that 1 1/2 inch location no matter how many distributor teeth are relocated.

I've had a hard time following this for the same reason, not sure what is really going on here.

[40cpe]

Me, too, JSeery. Here's my understanding and summary. The PO's car was timed to the factory marks and hesitating, spitting. He found a mark scribed on the lock down pad (I think) of the distributor and set the timing to that mark. The engine ran good, but the new timing was about 1 1/2" advanced from the factory mark. He was advised to locate TDC with the cable tie method. He did and it verified his advanced timing mark as TDC, about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory mark. He explored the possibility of the wrong crank pulley and was advised (because of the position of his rotor) to rotate his distributor one tooth and re-time. Here is where it gets unclear to me. Without giving specifics, he indicated the problem was solved. So I'm assuming he moved the distributor one tooth and re-timed to factory marks and it runs well. We know that rotating the distributor won't change the TDC indicator, unless something else has changed.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Me, too, JSeery. Here's my understanding and summary. The PO's car was timed to the factory marks and hesitating, spitting. He found a mark scribed on the lock down pad (I think) of the distributor and set the timing to that mark. The engine ran good, but the new timing was about 1 1/2" advanced from the factory mark. He was advised to locate TDC with the cable tie method. He did and it verified his advanced timing mark as TDC, about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory mark. He explored the possibility of the wrong crank pulley and was advised (because of the position of his rotor) to rotate his distributor one tooth and re-time. Here is where it gets unclear to me. Without giving specifics, he indicated the problem was solved. So I'm assuming he moved the distributor one tooth and re-timed to factory marks and it runs well. We know that rotating the distributor won't change the TDC indicator, unless something else has changed.

You are close. This all started when I decided to set the timing with a timing light as apposed to setting it with the best vacuum then backing it off a bit. The car has been running this way for the past 8 years.

When I used the timing light, for some reason it was 1 1/2" off the timing button. I posted the question, why?

I have attached a picture of the pulley with the factory timing marks (on the left) and the location of the artificial TDC in silver marker, that is one tooth off (on the right) when using a timing light. My goal was to find out why and then correct the situation to use the factory timing marks.

There were many suggestion and questions during the course of the discussion.

The final solution, was that the distributor was off on tooth. If I pulled the distributor up and rotated it one tooth (counter clock wise), I would then be able to use a timing light and the original factory timing mark on the pulley.

Bottom line, I did move the distributor back one tooth and now, I am able to use the timing light in conjunction with the factory timing dot on the pulley. Problem solved.

[JWL]

I am afraid this is not yet understood. Changing distributor teeth has NOTHING to do with the relationship between the timing light and the pulley marker for where best performance is achieved. Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing. If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged. Changing tooth engagement does not impact the relationship between spark timing and best engine performance.


Of course connecting the light to the wrong plug wire will alter results.

[Ol' Ron]

The cable tie method of finding TDC ia a time honored method of finding TDC. If you on't like this method just remove the head and use a positive stop. The object here is to find TDC. "THen" we can deal with timing the engine. Thanks Bruce!

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by JWL

I am afraid this is not yet understood. Changing distributor teeth has NOTHING to do with the relationship between the timing light and the pulley marker for where best performance is achieved. Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing. If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged. Changing tooth engagement does not impact the relationship between spark timing and best engine performance.


Of course connecting the light to the wrong plug wire will alter results.

Maybe if you replace "location of the artificial TDC in silver marker, that is one tooth off (on the right) when using a timing light" with [I]"Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing.", is the way it should have read.

I agree with your statement: "If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged.", but I wanted it to run where the timing light was pointed at the timing "dot" on the pulley. In order to do that I had to move the distributor one tooth CCW.

That is all what the post was about, nothing more. Sorry for the confusion.

[51 MERC-CT]

I think I'm getting brain cramp but I'm tossing this out there as my conclusion.


Consider that the distributor lobe has 8 positions, each dedicated to its own cylinder in the firing
order.
Moving the the rotor 1 tooth, moves the #1 position closer to either #5 or #2 position on the cap (depending
on direction rotor was moved.
The #1 position is now using either #5 or #2 position on the lobe.
So now when a timing light is used on #1 wire the signal is really giving an indication of timing
for either #5 or #2 position.
That is why it will not show correct reading on indicator.
If when the problem was first detected, the timing light was connected to the #5 or #2 wire
the pointer and dot would have been illuminated..

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

I think I'm getting brain cramp but I'm tossing this out there as my conclusion.


Consider that the distributor lobe has 8 positions, each dedicated to its own cylinder in the firing
order.
Moving the the rotor 1 tooth, moves the #1 position closer to either #5 or #2 position on the cap (depending
on direction rotor was moved.
The #1 position is now using either #5 or #2 position on the lobe.
So now when a timing light is used on #1 wire the signal is really giving an indication of timing
for either #5 or #2 position.
That is why it will not show correct reading on indicator.
If when the problem was first detected, the timing light was connected to the #5 or #2 wire
the pointer and dot would have been illuminated..

Hopefully the pictures will help:

Picture #4 - First the timing mark on the pulley is aligned with the timing pin mounted to the front of the timing cover, on the compression stroke.

Picture #1 - distributor cap with arrow pointing to wire for #1 cylinder

Picture #2 - original location of rotor

Picture #3 - location of rotor after moving it CCW one tooth

[40cpe]

Your distributor rotates clockwise, so picture #4 shows the rotor past (ATDC) #1 and the reason it doesn't run well set on the button. You rotated the drive gear CCW which put the rotor at before the #1 (BTDC). What you aren't showing here is that you rotated the distributor housing (and the distributor cap) counter clockwise to time the engine. This put the #1 terminal back in the same relation with the rotor as before the gear change. If the timing light pick-up is on #1 plug wire it can't pick up signals from #2 or #5 terminals on the cap. I have changed positions of the drive gear in order to get clearance on the vacuum can to adjust the timing but I always have to rotate the distributor body to compensate. It never changes the location of the TDC mark on the pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Your distributor rotates clockwise, so picture #4 shows the rotor past (ATDC) #1 and the reason it doesn't run well set on the button. You rotated the drive gear CCW which put the rotor at before the #1 (BTDC). What you aren't showing here is that you rotated the distributor housing (and the distributor cap) counter clockwise to time the engine. This put the #1 terminal back in the same relation with the rotor as before the gear change. If the timing light pick-up is on #1 plug wire it can't pick up signals from #2 or #5 terminals on the cap. I have changed positions of the drive gear in order to get clearance on the vacuum can to adjust the timing but I always have to rotate the distributor body to compensate. It never changes the location of the TDC mark on the pulley.

40cpe,

When I rotated the distributor as far CCW as possible (stopped by the thermostat housing), the timing was set perfectly, when using the timing light. So I think I will leave it where it is, as I will always know, all I have to do is rotate the vacuum pod as far CCW, and the timing will be correctly.

Just dumb luck on my part. Thank you for your post.

[Merc Cruzer]

First, just a thank you all for your assistance.

I did get a chance to do a test run on Sunday. The car starts allot easier and quicker (one revolution). The engine seems noticeably quieter. Not sure if there is more power, if so it is not noticeable, but it does seem smother. Overall, I like that fact that I can now use the original timing mark in conjunction with my timing light, the original goal for this post.

Thanks again,

End post.

[Mart]

Can I see if I understand how all this went down..?

The car ran ok but you couldn't get the timing to align with the mark because the distributor body was restricted to only a few degrees movement and it couldn't go far enough to thet the timing on the marks.

You then retimed the distributor one tooth round, and was then able to get enough movement so the timing then did align with the timing mark on the pulley.

The car runs better now and quite rightly as the timing must have been off before.

You say it sounds quieter. If the timing was retarded it can make the exhaust note louder.

So the pulley hasn't slipped, it was right all along and now you have been able to align the timing with it it runs better than before.

Is that about it?

I remember watching your driving videos. It would be interesting to make another video to see if the exhaust note sounds crisper than before?? (just an idea).

Mart.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Mart

Can I see if I understand how all this went down..?

The car ran ok but you couldn't get the timing to align with the mark because the distributor body was restricted to only a few degrees movement and it couldn't go far enough to thet the timing on the marks.

You then retimed the distributor one tooth round, and was then able to get enough movement so the timing then did align with the timing mark on the pulley.

The car runs better now and quite rightly as the timing must have been off before.

You say it sounds quieter. If the timing was retarded it can make the exhaust note louder.

So the pulley hasn't slipped, it was right all along and now you have been able to align the timing with it it runs better than before.

Is that about it?

I remember watching your driving videos. It would be interesting to make another video to see if the exhaust note sounds crisper than before?? (just an idea).

Mart.

Mart,

You are close. I could get the timing mark to line up, and it ran, but not well at all. So I returned it to a position, that wound up being 1 1/2" advanced, off the timing mark.

Once I re-timed it one tooth CCW, I was able then to align the timing marks and it runs beautifully.

Once we get better weather (that may be a while) I will make a new video, to check out the exhaust note now.

Always good hearing from you.

Thanks again.

[40cpe]

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Mart, He said initially that the engine ran best with timing indicated about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory button. He used the zip tie method (your video) to determine TDC and it agreed with the 1 1/2" advanced mark. He was advised to lift the distributor and rotate the rotor 1 tooth CCW, which put the rotor well past (ATDC) the #1 terminal on the distributor cap. The picture of the distributor after the CCW rotation of the gear and re-timing showed the vacuum can rotated CCW and against the thermostat housing, which was needed for the terminal on the distributor cap to "catch up" with the rotor. I don't understand how rotating the rotor shaft CCW and then rotating the distributor housing CCW to catch up with it moved the TDC indication on the crank pulley and made it run well with the timing set on the factory button.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Mart, He said initially that the engine ran best with timing indicated about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory button. He used the zip tie method (your video) to determine TDC and it agreed with the 1 1/2" advanced mark. He was advised to lift the distributor and rotate the rotor 1 tooth CCW, which put the rotor well past (ATDC) the #1 terminal on the distributor cap. The picture of the distributor after the CCW rotation of the gear and re-timing showed the vacuum can rotated CCW and against the thermostat housing, which was needed for the terminal on the distributor cap to "catch up" with the rotor. I don't understand how rotating the rotor shaft CCW and then rotating the distributor housing CCW to catch up with it moved the TDC indication on the crank pulley and made it run well with the timing set on the factory button.

The confusion here seems to be with how I worded the statement I made as to the TDC aligning with the 1 1/2" off the timing mark on the pulley. That was incorrect. The zip tie method test "confirmed that the TDC was in fact with the timing mark on the pulley aligned with the timing pin on the front of the timing cover."

I apologize for the confusion.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hoop

From your earlier post after suggestions that you use the cable tie method, you posted #31:

"Ok folks, I have to admit putting a foreign object into the cylinder, of a perfectly good engine would have not been my first choice. But here it is. Bottom line, the new TDC, is still 1 1/2" off the original pulley marker."


Now you admit:

"I was only able to confirm the TDC with the finger test. Finger in the plug hole and turn over the engine until it blows the finger out of the hole. Then line up the dot with the pointer."

Nice work confusing us.

The zip tie method test "confirmed that the TDC was in fact with the timing mark on the pulley aligned with the timing pin on the front of the timing cover."

I apologize for the confusion.

[Hoop]

No apology necessary.

Interesting thing about the "wrong TDC" location is that it had a really good possible explanation ... if it had been correct.

There's an old adage in problem solving that says the usual solution is the simplest one ... distributor installed wrong, but to do that we had to ignore your "new TDC."