banjo assembly problem...help

[Curt Campbell]

I am totally rebuilding differential. As per all the instructions i have pressed in new bearings and races through out. Test installing the two axle housings to thr banjo. Inside the banjo the two pieces hsve been assembled with the yoke only....no spider gears, no pinion shaft and no axles. The races are all pressed tight. When i try to bolt down the left side housing it will not attach flush to the banjo as picture shows..cannot bolt together tight. What is wrong?? No shims or gaskets installed per instructions.

Thanks!!!

[Joe K]

Gosh.

Well, you need to start with the "standard" gaskets on both sides.

But other than that I see no fault. How much can go wrong from before assuming you used the same yoke halves and simply reassembled with new bearings?

Or did you intermingle parts two different yokes as we considered in the previous thread?

Given two mis-matched yoke halves, it is possible that the bearing shoulder to yoke mating surface might be different from yoke pair to yoke pair. You might have taken a long RH piece and and long LH piece and made up a LONG total yoke? Which is now keeping the trumpets from coming up to the banjo?

I'm at a loss. Best to get as close as you started before disassembly? Maybe do a "receipt inspection" of the new bearing height compared to the old bearings?

Joe K

[THEOZON]

Try fliping Trumpets around. Did you mark them RH LH before removal?

[Tom Endy]

Check that the new races in the axle housings are pressed in such that they are flush against the stops. I use a dental mirror and a flashlight to check.

Check that the two new bearings on the carrier halves are pressed on the hubs up against the stops.

Check that the two carrier half are mounted together such that the feet are flush with one another. The later carriers have a step on each foot, the early carriers do not have the step.

Be sure you are not mixing early and new carrier halves.

Tom Endy

[Curt Campbell]

Yes.....the only new parts were bearings and races....all Timken with correct numbers per to old. Same yolk halves and I marked them before I took them apart so they would go together the same. The yoke wit no spiders is in it an fits fine. Same yolk and gears. No, didn't actually measure a bearing. I kept the axle housing right and left. There were no no shims anywhere....except the thinnest housing gasket on each side....001 O assume. Bpought thicker ones if I needed them. All gears and parts seemed in great shape...some races and bearings were pitted some. Everything cleaned in parts washer totally clean including the insides of the axle housings and the torque tube. Got me totally frustrated...guess only thing to do is to total tear it down and start over. I have done many later model (muscle car) diffs but the A is certainly different but simple. No evidence of any spinning races.]

I am stumped....guess will tear down and start over. Then the assembly is together as in in pic the ring gear will not turn as it shoudnt. I am using Tom Endys article and Les Andrews book as well as the one is the series dealing with Restoring your Model A from MAFCA I think. They do conflict some.
Fun fun fun.......any ideas?? This is really nice TUDOR DELUXE.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Before you tear it apart, try tapping each bearing to be sure it's really seated against it's stop. If you use a hammer and punch to carefully tap around the race, you can hear and feel the distinct noise when it's home.

Be sure to wear safetly glasses or a face shield when tapping on bearings. I know 2 people who each lost an eye while working on bearings with a hammer and punch.

[BruceKC]

After closely looking at the picture, the housing that is not closing up would be the right housing. are you sure you haven't switched the housings. you identified it as the left side.

[Joe K]

It should not matter if the trumpet housings are swapped. The distance between the bearing seats (hence races) in the housings will be the same as it is set by the thickness of the banjo housing (and gaskets).

Even flipping the yoke should make not difference as the distance between bearing seats should be the same there too.

Joe K

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Curt Campbell

Yes.....the only new parts were bearings and races....all Timken with correct numbers per to old. Same yolk halves and I marked them before I took them apart so they would go together the same. The yoke wit no spiders is in it an fits fine. Same yolk and gears. No, didn't actually measure a bearing. I kept the axle housing right and left. There were no no shims anywhere....except the thinnest housing gasket on each side....001 O assume. Bpought thicker ones if I needed them. All gears and parts seemed in great shape...some races and bearings were pitted some. Everything cleaned in parts washer totally clean including the insides of the axle housings and the torque tube. Got me totally frustrated...guess only thing to do is to total tear it down and start over. I have done many later model (muscle car) diffs but the A is certainly different but simple. No evidence of any spinning races.]

I am stumped....guess will tear down and start over. Then the assembly is together as in in pic the ring gear will not turn as it shoudnt. I am using Tom Endys article and Les Andrews book as well as the one is the series dealing with Restoring your Model A from MAFCA I think. They do conflict some.
Fun fun fun.......any ideas?? This is really nice TUDOR DELUXE.

I suspect that you do not have the axle housing races pressed down against the stops. The only way you can tell for certain is to use a small mirror and a flash light to look under the race to see if it is against the stop.


The way I press them in is to use a KR Wilson tool made for the task. Before I obtained the tool I used a shop press. I placed the banjo flat on the shop press rails and inserted the axle housing down into the banjo up side down. This provided a sturdy platform. I then used an old discarded double pinion race as the pressing in tool.

With either method I always check them with a mirror and a flash light to make sure they are properly seated.

Tom Endy

[Ron in Quincy]

A change was made in October 1929; the carrier bearing race was moved inward to reduce back lash. .010 gaskets were used with this arrangement. At the same time .006 were issued for the earlier axel housings to correct back lash.

If you happen to have one early axel housing and one later axel housing you could have a problem.

Check Service Bulletins, page 382 for details. If you happen to look at the index it shows (truck) which is a printing error as it covers passenger car rear axel housings.

Ron

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I suspect that you do not have the axle housing races pressed down against the stops. The only way you can tell for certain is to use a small mirror and a flash light to look under the race to see if it is against the stop.


The way I press them in is to use a KR Wilson tool made for the task. Before I obtained the tool I used a shop press. I placed the banjo flat on the shop press rails and inserted the axle housing down into the banjo up side down. This provided a sturdy platform. I then used an old discarded double pinion race as the pressing in tool.

With either method I always check them with a mirror and a flash light to make sure they are properly seated.

Tom Endy

I used a tool for driving in races, have used it many times. when the races where home they rang like a bell

[Ford1931]

Does the ring gear turn freely? If it does you may have egg shaped the banjo when the front bearing was pressed in or out. You can check the banjo roundness with a brake caliper. This would keep the axle housing from seating. The banjo is as easy to straighten as it is to bend. If the bearings are locked, I would check to see that the bearing race or bearings are correct.

[tbirdtbird]

of all the resources out there, follow Tom Endy. He makes his living this way and is the noted differential doctor. forget the others.

[Glen in Hillman MI]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Before you tear it apart, try tapping each bearing to be sure it's really seated against it's stop. If you use a hammer and punch to carefully tap around the race, you can hear and feel the distict noise when it's home.

Be sure to wear safetly glasses or a face shield when tapping on bearings. I know 2 people who each lost an eye while working on bearings with a hammer and punch.

You should be using a brass drift/punch on any bearing instead of just a steel punch, not only to protect your eyes and other parts of the body that could get damaged from flying chips, but you also are protecting the bearing from any damage the steel punch will do.

I would suggest that he takes the bearing races back out, checks for dirt or any dings that may be in the race area with fine sandpaper. That will show up any damage that may have happened in the race area.

Tom, I'm a long time reader, but short on post. I respect your knowledge and the fact that you share that knowledge so freely with other owners, but sometimes your post is not clear enough for non-regular mechanics and a more detailed explanation is needed.

Respectfully,
Glen

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

of all the resources out there, follow Tom Endy. He makes his living this way and is the noted differential doctor. forget the others.

So the rest of us must be done?

I hope Curt can figure it out. I like the "distorted housing" thought.

But you can forget that.

Joe K

[Growley bear]

To install bearing cups and cones I use an old carrier bearing cup split in the side with a cutting wheel so that it will flex for removal. Start the new cup in the housing then set the old one on top and tap it down. The same for the carrier bearings/cones. Take the old bearing apart, split the side and you have a driving tool that won't destroy the new bearing. A heavy brass or dead blow type hammer keeps the chips from flying.

Chet

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

To install bearing cups and cones I use an old carrier bearing cup split in the side with a cutting wheel so that it will flex for removal. Start the new cup in the housing then set the old one on top and tap it down. The same for the carrier bearings/cones. Take the old bearing apart, split the side and you have a driving tool that won't destroy the new bearing. A heavy brass or dead blow type hammer keeps the chips from flying.

Chet

I've done the same except instead of slitting the side of the bearing I ground a few thousandths off the outside diameter.

[Curt Campbell]

Hi guys...found two things and solved the problem of the housings not pulling down like in the pic. First I discovered that one of the bearing races on one of the halves of thr spider gear assembly didnt look quite seated. Re-pressed it...hard press.....and pop it went into place. Secondly...i did have the axle housings switched....and yes it made a difference. Now if the rest of the assembly and prelaod goes good!

Thank you all

[Keith True]

Now just make sure you load the assembly from the correct side.You CAN wind up with three speeds backward and one ahead.

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Curt Campbell

Hi guys...found two things and solved the problem of the housings not pulling down like in the pic. First I discovered that one of the bearing races on one of the halves of thr spider gear assembly didnt look quite seated. Re-pressed it...hard press.....and pop it went into place. Secondly...i did have the axle housings switched....and yes it made a difference. Now if the rest of the assembly and prelaod goes good!

Thank you all

Curt:

The axle housings are interchangeable from side to side as far as function is concerned. The early housings had the weld seam on the side and they are supposed to face forward according to Henry. If you interchange them the seams will face aft and it will be incorrect as far as judging, but will work just fine. In 1929 there were some axle housings made with the seams facing down. If you reverse them they still face down. The later housing have the seams facing up, if you reverse them they still face up.

The early housings had the stops for the carrier bearing races machined such that a .006 gasket was used on each banjo side. Somewhere during production there was a change and a service bulletin issued that changed the depth such that a .010 gasket was required on each side. This I think had to do with oil leakage. I have never been able to determine the difference in housings. However it is of no concern because you have to determine carrier bearing pre-load by the selection of quantity and thickness of banjo gaskets and possible carrier bearing shims. This would take care of any differences in housings. I always make sure I have at least one .010 gasket in place on either side when I am finished with determining carrier bearing pre-load and backlash.

When I rebuild a rear axle assembly I mark the axle housings left and right so I can put the assembly back together as I found it for no other reason than I can.

As several have mentioned you want to end up with the ring gear on the left side of the banjo. It can be installed on the right just as easy, but you will have one gear forward, and three in reverse.

Someone suggested I make my living rebuilding Model A differentials. That is not correct, I have a cottage industry that is more hobby than anything else.

Tom Endy