FS ignitions hard starting

[earbleeder]

Anyone ever had a hard starting issue with a FS ignition? By hard staring I mean the first revolutions of the motor are VERY slow then as you let your foot off the pedal it starts. It almost seems like the timing is too advanced. Also has Snyder head but I find it hard to believe that head would make that much compression to do that. Once it starts it runs fine. Any ideas? I had a motorcycle do it once and it turned out to be the starter itself drawing too much. Tried a couple different starters on the A, same result.
Thanks

[machine girl]

call mel at FS , why are you on the petal, I think your out of time, retarded.+ if it is to advanced you will break a bendix>

[freak]

My FS ignition works great. Never have noticed this behavior.

[Logan]

Check your timing with a timing light.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by machine girl

call mel at FS , why are you on the petal, I think your out of time, retarded.+ if it is to advanced you will break a bendix>

I think he means starter.

Sure sound like low voltage to me.

[Marco Tahtaras]

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I don't use it but others have said it's voltage sensitive. To me that means it sounds like your your battery is weak (or bad connection) and the starter is drawing enough current to 'starve' the ignition until you let off the starter.

Leave the ignition switch OFF and operate the starter. If it turns slowly then solve that problem before even thinking about the ignition again.

[tbirdtbird]

Good idea, Marco.

"Check your timing with a timing light."

X 2

[Growley bear]

If the battery is in top notch condition, and the starter isn't pulling too many amps and the electronic ignition system is connected EXACTLY as directed by FS the engine will start very well. That has been my experience with the 6 volt unit. A very important point of this installation is that the wire that is supposed to be connected directly to the battery needs to be connected directly to the battery and no other parallel circuit. That one seemingly (to me) small point is very important in this installation.
I have been very happy with my FS ignition system.

Chet

[V4F]

i agree with marco , if it starts when you stop cranking , then the starter is pulling all the juice .......

[earbleeder]

So this is where I end up. Fully charged battery (I think I tried it with the key off but will check again), tried several known good starters/cables/reed switches, Nurex timing advancer checked by Nurex to be ok, timing set with nurex wrench and checked with light= where it's supposed to be, sounds advanced like it is going to break a bendix/FS won't sell individual parts to try... I agree that it sounds like the starter is pulling too much but can't find out why.

[machine girl]

VERY IMPORTANT, DIRECT WIRE FROM THE BATTERY TO KEY SWITCH, KEY SWITCH TO DIST. NO OTHER WIRES ! 0 tdc 28 degrees adv. we go about 7 tdc but we have a very modified motor, again call mel at FS .or call us 408 722 2518 will try to help (calif time) modelaonly.net

[Rex_A_Lott]

I agree with the others, bad connection, ground or too small of a cable. Something else you can try is to get the starter spinning with the key off first and then switch it on while still spinning the starter. Good Luck!

[earbleeder]

Will do

[glenn in camino]

I had nothing but trouble with my FS ignition, so I went back to a stock distributor and my full pressure B engine with a 7-1 Thomas head runs stronger than ever. I'm thinking of sending all that electronic stuff back to FS to see if they can figure out what's wrong with it

[Roadster Rich]

I have had my FS for 5 years. Last year it seemed to act just like yours when I replaced the electronics (yes I stupidly left my key on and burned out the unit. FS replaced at no cost). It felt like it just did not have the UMPH to turn it over. Turned the key off and cranked and it cranked like a champ. It was the timing. I redid the entire set up of the FS timing and all is running fine now. Try to crank the starter with the key off. If it cranks fast, then you have a timing problem.

[Benson]

I have seen the slow starter problem with Electronic ignition 4 or 5 times.

1. Turn off key and crank ... if cranks faster then replace the coil to distributor wire with a carbon RESISTOR wire.

2. Try again. If still slow cranking then replace distributor body and cap with modern cap and carbon wires to the plugs. Leave carbon coil wire in place.

The electronic ignition module is picking up a random triggers from the high voltage or the starter brushes ... which causes erratic triggering of the module. The ones I saw were firing randomly while starter was cranking.

Maybe the module is picking up triggers from the sparks from the starter brushes.

Carbon wires reduce the random triggering while starter is cranking...

I do not know why this happens only on some engines ... maybe some starters are making more sparks.

[Duffy1]

What does FS bring to the party?

[Growley bear]

Have you tried turning the engine by hand or with the hand crank? Sometimes a tight engine will seem like a dragging starter.

Chet

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Benson

I have seen the slow starter problem with Electronic ignition 4 or 5 times.

1. Turn off key and crank ... if cranks faster then replace the coil to distributor wire with a carbon RESISTOR wire.

2. Try again. If still slow cranking then replace distributor body and cap with modern cap and carbon wires to the plugs. Leave carbon coil wire in place.

The electronic ignition module is picking up a random crossfire from the high voltage or the starter ... which causes erratic triggering of the module. The ones I saw were firing randomly while starter was cranking.

Maybe the module is picking up triggers from the sparks from the starter brushes.

Carbon wires reduce the random triggering while starter is cranking...

To my knowledge random triggering is the reason for connecting the hot wire directly to the negative battery post 6v pos grnd. The battery acts as a buffer for the
RF signals that the system picks up from the starter.

Chet

[Growley bear]

This is not Model A related albeit electronic ignition related. Electronic ignitions are sensitive to Radio Frequency noise;
A friend had new imported sports car with electronic ignition and fuel injection. It ran fine for a couple thousand miles and immediately started misfiring and missing driving at any speed but more on the freeway. He being a mechanic tried to no avail to repair the problem and in frustration decided to take it to the dealer as it was still under warranty. A very sharp technician connected the car to the engine analyzer and before starting it he asked who changed the spark plugs. Al left something out that he did in his quest for something other than Bosch sparkplugs which he didn't like and wouldn't run in any car he owned. This system was designed around the Bosch spark plug and would not run even close to correctly on anything else. Seems the odd spark plugs caused RF signals that upset the ignition and fuel injection.
Another guy I used to know had a high powered CB radio in his van and on a certain channel would pull along side a certain electronically fuel injected auto, key his mic and shut down the other guy's engine.
Fun with electronics.

Chet

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by earbleeder

So this is where I end up. Fully charged battery------- (I think I tried it with the key off but will check again), tried several known good starters/cables/reed switches, Nurex timing advancer checked by Nurex to be ok, timing set with nurex wrench and checked with light= where it's supposed to be, sounds advanced like it is going to break a bendix/FS won't sell individual parts to try... I agree that it sounds like the starter is pulling too much but can't find out why.

Ok, I'm lost here. Based on you initial description, checking the turnover speed of the engine with the ignition off was the MOST important test as every other test is worthless until that is done as I stated in my first post.

Second, you stated "fully charged battery". What is that based on? Did you check all cells with a battery hydrometer? This will indicate one or more bad cells which will tell you if a battery that was good two weeks ago has now been damaged. You can also remove the battery and have it load tested for free at most auto parts stores that sell batteries (at least in my area).

Unless keeping you head under the hood is a welcome escape in your daily life I strongly suggest doing the easy and most logical things first .

[earbleeder]

Think you might have something there Benson. I've looked at so many things that I'm sure one of the first was turning it over with the key off , "fully charged" meaning fully charged on a charger and out of a known good starting A, along with the multiple starters and cables and misc. Hence the narrowing down to the ignition. Next step is going to a different ignition, stock or otherwise. Which probably should have been done first but I do love having my head under the hood almost as much as asking questions on this forum.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by earbleeder

Think you might have something there Benson. I've looked at so many things that I'm sure one of the first was turning it over with the key off , "fully charged" meaning fully charged on a charger and out of a known good starting A, along with the multiple starters and cables and misc. Hence the narrowing down to the ignition. Next step is going to a different ignition, stock or otherwise. Which probably should have been done first but I do love having my head under the hood almost as much as asking questions on this forum.

Ok, the same ambiguous answer as yesterday. "I'm sure I...." means there is some doubt. Why is it so difficult to climb in the car and press the starter with the key off? I guess that if you ARE sure then you can confirm that it turned at normal speed instead or your previous description which was "I mean the first revolutions of the motor are VERY slow". If that is truly the case then you have an issue with the ignition.

[glenn in camino]

Why would anyone want an electronic ignition for a Model A when the stock system works just fine?

[machine girl]

you wont know till you try one, makes the motor run smoother, more snap , starts right now, and a better power band, and you can get one that looks stock!(not the one we run but were rebellious)

[Jeff/Illinois]

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I guess I side more with Glenn on this one and think along that line. A perfectly restored stock Model A system seems to work just fine. That's always been my experience. For as little as I drive our 'A', the stock set up does well. Running modern points now but those are going to be deep-sixed soon and back to original.

I know this doesn't answer the original post, I guess I see it sometimes as folks trying to re-engineer a pretty good little car when sometimes that isn't really necessary. Sometimes all it seems that we are doing when we do that is to cover up a problem and not really try to fix, the original problem.

Not all mods are bad, Tom's EVR is GREAT as an example, but electronic ignitions seem to garner a lot of 'what's wrong with my set up' kind of questions...............

[Dave in MN]

Clean the connections from the module to ground. I have seen exactly the same problem three times with various electronic modules. Nu-Rex, FSI and a Pertronics. I took my car out for some photos with my nieces kids last Thanksgiving and the same thing was present with my car. (FSI) It's my coming Saturday's project to clean and tighten all the module connections. (Three times may likely now be four!)
It appears you have low voltage to the module.

Every time but once I have had a hard starting engine with electronic ignition, it has been caused by a weak ground connection to the electronic module. IMO: Cleaning the module ground connection is a simple test as it takes little time. Once the problem was a bad cell in the battery...again low voltage.

earbleeder: Please post the discovered cause once it is sorted out. Thanks.

Good Day!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

Why would anyone want an electronic ignition for a Model A when the stock system works just fine?

Newer is better!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by machine girl

you wont know till you try one, makes the motor run smoother, more snap , starts right now, and a better power band, and you can get one that looks stock!(not the one we run but were rebellious)

Except in this case.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by machine girl

you wont know till you try one, makes the motor run smoother, more snap , starts right now, and a better power band, and you can get one that looks stock!(not the one we run but were rebellious)

The FS ignition kit that I installed in my stock distributor helped squeeze some extra mileage from a gallon of fuel, 35 mph hills became 40 mph hills and yes it starts better and runs better. No one knows that I have electronic ignition unless I tell them. I haven't had any negative feedback yet.
Oh, and where would we be without our rebels? You gotta love 'em.
Chet

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Clean the connections from the module to ground. I have seen exactly the same problem three times with various electronic modules. Nu-Rex, FSI and a Pertronics. I took my car out for some photos with my nieces kids last Thanksgiving and the same thing was present with my car. (FSI) It's my coming Saturday's project to clean and tighten all the module connections.

Please post the discovered cause.

Good Day!

There is no point. He still has been unable to respond whether the engine turns over normally with the ignition off. Nothing can be diagnosed if the patient won't respond. Worse than that, nobody following the thread will ever learn what they hope to so it becomes a dead-end for everyone. That is an all to common sad occurrence.

[earbleeder]

It's a club members car and it's not right in front of me. Thanks to all the CONSTRUCTIVE comments given by the people who DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING but are willing to share what they do.

[Growley bear]

My Model A with 6 volt system and FS ignition turns over at the same speed with or without the ignition turned on. I will turn over slower with the ign. switch on if the advance lever is advanced a little too far, tried that too. I have been employed over the past 55 years in many mechanical fields including aircraft. I will be the first to admit that I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING and I have never professed to. Speaking for myself, I am willing to share my knowledge and experience with anyone who asks.
There is a wealth of knowledge on the FORD BARN and many many people who are more than willing to help. The proper help can't be given without communication and information.
Chet

[JtownJoe]

I have had an FX Ignition system in place ON MY 30 Tudor and I an completely satisfied after 5 to 7 years.

[Duffy1]

No taca-taca-taca with F S . Kind of like having a Harley with no Harley sound .

[glenn in camino]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Newer is better!

Not always.

[machine girl]

Duffy, your way wrong, with correct timing the FS does the taca taca ?if that's what you call it, most problems are lack of experience, and taking the time to work it out, many feel ,well I spent a lot of$$ just bolt it on and go. we will say again need help call mel at FS. he will take the time to help. also many times the problem is not the dist.

[Charlville]

Would be interesting to see what the draw is thye on ammeter when:

Just the ignition key is turned on

When cranking the engine

The ammeter can be a wonderul diag aid at times