The Ford Barn

leadpot · 04-24-2018, 06:20 PM

29 Tudor, stock except for FSI electron ignition. Have had car for 7 years without any major problems. The problem is overheating when idling more than a few minutes or cruising over 45. I have a temperature gauge and have double checked with a handheld probe. Over the years have flushed , back flushed , ran vinegar, distilled water, antifreeze, timing has been checked, double checked with TDC and has made no difference. Can cruise all day 40 - 45, run around town no problem unless I have to idle roo long.
Last year the radiator developed a leak around the upper tank. So this year I bit the bullet and installed a new radiator from Snyders and opted for the heavy-duty. For good measure also changed the water pump. Thought well happy days are here again.
Nothing has changed, still has the same issues as above. I guess this means there is internal problem with my engine, any suggestions other than just enjoy what I have.

eagle · 04-24-2018, 06:32 PM

Where are you running the spark lever when idling? Don't retard much when idling. Listen to the engine, it should not be "laboring". Advance until you hear the ping then retard just until ping goes away. It should not overheat, EVER. I can't make mine overheat. Original radiator and all stock.

Russ/40 · 04-24-2018, 06:32 PM

If I had that problem, and have already made sure it is not that the timing is off, I would pull the head. Your head gasket and upper block cooling passages could be severely obstructed. Retarded timing can heat things up pretty fast.

Marshall57 · 04-24-2018, 06:59 PM

I would take off the head. It isn't very hard and will give you a chance to see what is going on in the block. My Dad had at 29 Roadster that couldn't stay cool, did much of the same things you have done, when we pulled the head, we found the head was missing a hole and a few others were not as large as they were supposed to be. we drilled the missing one out and cleaned the others up. it ran cool from then on. You can use a head gasket to see where and how large the coolant holes should be and if one is missing, as was our case.

leadpot · 04-24-2018, 06:59 PM

I have electronic ignition, spark is automatic and it does work, have checked it running with a timing light.
Hate to pull the head but it may come to that

BILL WILLIAMSON · 04-24-2018, 07:36 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall57

I would take off the head. It isn't very hard and will give you a chance to see what is going on in the block. My Dad had at 29 Roadster that couldn't stay cool, did much of the same things you have done, when we pulled the head, we found the head was missing a hole and a few others were not as large as they were supposed to be. we drilled the missing one out and cleaned the others up. it ran cool from then on. You can use a head gasket to see where and how large the coolant holes should be and if one is missing, as was our case.

Marshall,
If he decides to pull the head, I'll PRAY for him, that it's EASY. "Some" can be BOOGERS! Lots of damage has happened, when doing a REALLY BAD ONE!
If one is stuck, Folks should do a SEARCH of stuck heads, here on our BARN!
My Dog LAFFS, whin someone says, "JUST POP IT OFF"!
Bill Hopethishelps

redmodelt · 04-24-2018, 07:44 PM

Ya I laugh too! I spent about 8 hours working one off. Don't think a head puller would have worked. Even had it suspended from a cherry picker. But if the head has been off in the past few years, maybe. Suggestion, drain the water, turn the head nuts up about 1/8 off the head and start the engine. Lots of times the bang or two will pop it loose.

eagle · 04-24-2018, 07:55 PM

spark is automatic There would be my 1st suspect. Hook up the manual lever and try it before you do anything else.

CWPASADENA · 04-24-2018, 10:30 PM

I run a stock distributor but I have had a little experience with the FSI Distributor.

Most of these have way too much mechanical advance. If you set the advance at 30 Deg. at 2000 RPM, the distributor will have zero advance at idle. A Model A engine needs about 16 - 18 Deg. at Idle.

Running zero advance at Idle will definitely heat up the engine if left to idle for a long period of time.

FSI now has different springs and advance parts for their distributor to better set the advance curve so there is some advance at idle.

I would suggest you get rid of the FSI and install a good original system. Time it correctly and use the Spark Control Lever as outlined in the Instruction Book (Owners Manual) and you may find your car runs better and cooler.

Automatic advance distributors are good IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. FSI is notorious for having a very poor advance curve built into them. FSI thought the advance should be about 30 Deg. when running (which is correct) and no advance at Idle (which is NOT correct).

Again, this is JUST MY OPINION.

Chris W

Wick · 04-25-2018, 05:07 AM

When it runs hot shoot each cylinder water jacket with the heat gun. Shoot the head also. Look for high temp on #4

rocket1 · 04-25-2018, 07:08 AM

I like stock,the way Henry made it,put the stock distributor in and give it a try before pulling the head.A lot of times the head is stuck fast,I lifted the front of the truck by the head and still wouldn't budge.

cjkohnast · 04-25-2018, 07:15 AM

I notice on here that many times the problem is caused by what ever is changed from the way Henry did it.

Dave in MN · 04-25-2018, 07:17 AM

I have experience with the FSI self advancing distributor as I have set up a few for myself and customers.
The FSI website states their self advancing distributor has 26 to 28 degrees advance. If you are setting the spark timing at running speed (in advanced state) and you are setting it to a conservative 24-26 degrees advance, you may be running close to zero advance at idle. This condition will cause overheating. From my own experience, at idle you should have a minimum of 5 to 8 degrees (more is a bit better) advance or the engine will overheat.
It is also possible the distributor is set up with heavier springs which will keep any advance from the weights from happening until the engine RPM is raised over 1100 rpm. This will keep the engine retarded too long and has the same result.

An earlier post suggested trying a stock distributor. I know it takes a bit of rewiring to do so but trying one would let you know for sure whether your problem is the distributor.

I had the problems I am describing above with one in 2013 when using a high compression Lion Speed Head. The head was sensitive to too much advance so I retarded the FSI Zipper (set up with the heavy springs) and that put the spark timing at zero advance when idling. The engine would quickly overheat. I had installed the Zipper FSI so my wife could drive the car prior to starting a long road trip (9700 miles). She never got behind the wheel while we were on the trip so when we returned home, I took the Zipper off and replaced it with the manual advance distributor I had on the car since I restored it in 2000.

A negative to a FSI Zipper distributor is that you do not have the option to retard the spark a bit when necessary at the long hills. Most times, closer to a stock system will give you less troubles.
Hope you solve your problem soon. Good Day!

Brendan · 04-25-2018, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Ya I laugh too! I spent about 8 hours working one off. Don't think a head puller would have worked. Even had it suspended from a cherry picker. But if the head has been off in the past few years, maybe. Suggestion, drain the water, turn the head nuts up about 1/8 off the head and start the engine. Lots of times the bang or two will pop it loose.

i would have been happy with only 8 hr to get the head off my car. it took me 3 weeks. the saving grace is i would get so mad at it, i would walk away. that cr tested my patience

barkleydave · 04-25-2018, 07:50 AM

The head needs to come off and most likely the block needs to be boiled out. This is a common problem which like us the arteries get clogged up!

Ignition has nothing to do with this symptom.

krzewinskibe · 04-25-2018, 08:01 AM

I'd also check idle air mixture. Lean conditions can run on the warm side too.

Growley bear · 04-25-2018, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Marshall,
If he decides to pull the head, I'll PRAY for him, that it's EASY. "Some" can be BOOGERS! Lots of damage has happened, when doing a REALLY BAD ONE!
If one is stuck, Folks should do a SEARCH of stuck heads, here on our BARN!
My Dog LAFFS, whin someone says, "JUST POP IT OFF"!
Bill Hopethishelps

Listen to Bill, he knows what he is talking about. Many Model A owners run tap water in the cooling system and drain it for winter storage. That is not the best storage/operation method. Most tap water contains corrosive minerals which build up over time and fall out of suspension when the water is heated. After the system is drained for winter storage this sediment dries out and turns rock hard. In time the build up causes corrosion and blockage, it also diminishes the cooling system capacity. Dry open storage is also very hard on a radiator. If you look at the header tank solder joints and see a bit of usually white sediment forming, that is a sign of trouble down the road.
The Model A cooling system just like the fuel system is very sensitive to any problem with flow.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 04-25-2018, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket1

I like stock,the way Henry made it,put the stock distributor in and give it a try before pulling the head.A lot of times the head is stuck fast,I lifted the front of the truck by the head and still wouldn't budge.

Rocket,
A Friend, using a Crow Bar, took a BIG chunk out of the side of the water jacket, on a LOW MILEAGE, Ron Kelly Engine!!! Converted it to a BOAT ANCHOR.
Bill Crying

Bulligen · 04-25-2018, 08:54 AM

Judging on your own experience with your engine over a long period of time, it is probably just the head gasket. The last 3 or 4 that I have done have come off fairly easy. Perfect time to check everything out on the top of the engine. Take the distributor out and the top hose. You don't even have to take the waterpump off. just the fan belt and away you go. If you are at all handy it really is not that big a deal. Spray all the fasteners with penetrating oil the day before. Look at the rotor and put the distributor back in with it pointing in the same direction. If you have the parts you can easily do it in a weekend and be driving it on Monday.

Brendan · 04-25-2018, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

i would have been happy with only 8 hr to get the head off my car. it took me 3 weeks. the saving grace is i would get so mad at it, i would walk away. that cr tested my patience

i used the Bill Stipe head puller, and broke it. i chained up my heat to a chain fall, all that did was lift the car off the ground, i jumped on the bumper and no movement. after i got the head off i had to replace the studs. luckily i got them all out with out breaking any

04-24-2018, 06:20 PM	#1
leadpot Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Blanchester, Ohio Posts: 109	what a disappointment 29 Tudor, stock except for FSI electron ignition. Have had car for 7 years without any major problems. The problem is overheating when idling more than a few minutes or cruising over 45. I have a temperature gauge and have double checked with a handheld probe. Over the years have flushed , back flushed , ran vinegar, distilled water, antifreeze, timing has been checked, double checked with TDC and has made no difference. Can cruise all day 40 - 45, run around town no problem unless I have to idle roo long. Last year the radiator developed a leak around the upper tank. So this year I bit the bullet and installed a new radiator from Snyders and opted for the heavy-duty. For good measure also changed the water pump. Thought well happy days are here again. Nothing has changed, still has the same issues as above. I guess this means there is internal problem with my engine, any suggestions other than just enjoy what I have.

04-24-2018, 06:32 PM	#2
eagle Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Eagle Bend, MN Posts: 2,025	Re: what a disappointment Where are you running the spark lever when idling? Don't retard much when idling. Listen to the engine, it should not be "laboring". Advance until you hear the ping then retard just until ping goes away. It should not overheat, EVER. I can't make mine overheat. Original radiator and all stock. __________________ "There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."

04-24-2018, 06:32 PM	#3
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: what a disappointment If I had that problem, and have already made sure it is not that the timing is off, I would pull the head. Your head gasket and upper block cooling passages could be severely obstructed. Retarded timing can heat things up pretty fast.

04-24-2018, 06:59 PM	#5
leadpot Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Blanchester, Ohio Posts: 109	Re: what a disappointment I have electronic ignition, spark is automatic and it does work, have checked it running with a timing light. Hate to pull the head but it may come to that

04-24-2018, 07:44 PM	#7
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: what a disappointment Ya I laugh too! I spent about 8 hours working one off. Don't think a head puller would have worked. Even had it suspended from a cherry picker. But if the head has been off in the past few years, maybe. Suggestion, drain the water, turn the head nuts up about 1/8 off the head and start the engine. Lots of times the bang or two will pop it loose. __________________ I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!

04-24-2018, 06:59 PM	#4
Marshall57 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Elko Nevada Posts: 217	Re: what a disappointment I would take off the head. It isn't very hard and will give you a chance to see what is going on in the block. My Dad had at 29 Roadster that couldn't stay cool, did much of the same things you have done, when we pulled the head, we found the head was missing a hole and a few others were not as large as they were supposed to be. we drilled the missing one out and cleaned the others up. it ran cool from then on. You can use a head gasket to see where and how large the coolant holes should be and if one is missing, as was our case.

04-24-2018, 07:55 PM	#8
eagle Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Eagle Bend, MN Posts: 2,025	Re: what a disappointment spark is automatic There would be my 1st suspect. Hook up the manual lever and try it before you do anything else. __________________ "There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."

04-24-2018, 10:30 PM	#9
CWPASADENA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: PASADENA, CA Posts: 1,882	Re: what a disappointment I run a stock distributor but I have had a little experience with the FSI Distributor. Most of these have way too much mechanical advance. If you set the advance at 30 Deg. at 2000 RPM, the distributor will have zero advance at idle. A Model A engine needs about 16 - 18 Deg. at Idle. Running zero advance at Idle will definitely heat up the engine if left to idle for a long period of time. FSI now has different springs and advance parts for their distributor to better set the advance curve so there is some advance at idle. I would suggest you get rid of the FSI and install a good original system. Time it correctly and use the Spark Control Lever as outlined in the Instruction Book (Owners Manual) and you may find your car runs better and cooler. Automatic advance distributors are good IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. FSI is notorious for having a very poor advance curve built into them. FSI thought the advance should be about 30 Deg. when running (which is correct) and no advance at Idle (which is NOT correct). Again, this is JUST MY OPINION. Chris W Last edited by CWPASADENA; 04-24-2018 at 10:32 PM. Reason: TYPO

04-25-2018, 05:07 AM	#10
Wick Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gwynn's Island Va Posts: 1,386	Re: what a disappointment When it runs hot shoot each cylinder water jacket with the heat gun. Shoot the head also. Look for high temp on #4

04-25-2018, 07:08 AM	#11
rocket1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Midland Park,N.J. Posts: 1,108	Re: what a disappointment I like stock,the way Henry made it,put the stock distributor in and give it a try before pulling the head.A lot of times the head is stuck fast,I lifted the front of the truck by the head and still wouldn't budge.

04-25-2018, 07:15 AM	#12
cjkohnast Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 357	Re: what a disappointment I notice on here that many times the problem is caused by what ever is changed from the way Henry did it.

04-25-2018, 07:17 AM	#13
Dave in MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jordan, MN Posts: 1,411	Re: what a disappointment I have experience with the FSI self advancing distributor as I have set up a few for myself and customers. The FSI website states their self advancing distributor has 26 to 28 degrees advance. If you are setting the spark timing at running speed (in advanced state) and you are setting it to a conservative 24-26 degrees advance, you may be running close to zero advance at idle. This condition will cause overheating. From my own experience, at idle you should have a minimum of 5 to 8 degrees (more is a bit better) advance or the engine will overheat. It is also possible the distributor is set up with heavier springs which will keep any advance from the weights from happening until the engine RPM is raised over 1100 rpm. This will keep the engine retarded too long and has the same result. An earlier post suggested trying a stock distributor. I know it takes a bit of rewiring to do so but trying one would let you know for sure whether your problem is the distributor. I had the problems I am describing above with one in 2013 when using a high compression Lion Speed Head. The head was sensitive to too much advance so I retarded the FSI Zipper (set up with the heavy springs) and that put the spark timing at zero advance when idling. The engine would quickly overheat. I had installed the Zipper FSI so my wife could drive the car prior to starting a long road trip (9700 miles). She never got behind the wheel while we were on the trip so when we returned home, I took the Zipper off and replaced it with the manual advance distributor I had on the car since I restored it in 2000. A negative to a FSI Zipper distributor is that you do not have the option to retard the spark a bit when necessary at the long hills. Most times, closer to a stock system will give you less troubles. Hope you solve your problem soon. Good Day! Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-25-2018 at 07:32 AM.

04-25-2018, 07:50 AM	#15
barkleydave Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Kentucky Posts: 502	Re: what a disappointment The head needs to come off and most likely the block needs to be boiled out. This is a common problem which like us the arteries get clogged up! Ignition has nothing to do with this symptom.

04-25-2018, 08:01 AM	#16
krzewinskibe Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Rising Sun, MD Posts: 69	Re: what a disappointment I'd also check idle air mixture. Lean conditions can run on the warm side too. __________________ 1929 Tudor

04-25-2018, 08:54 AM	#19
Bulligen Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Elgin Illinois Posts: 736	Re: what a disappointment Judging on your own experience with your engine over a long period of time, it is probably just the head gasket. The last 3 or 4 that I have done have come off fairly easy. Perfect time to check everything out on the top of the engine. Take the distributor out and the top hose. You don't even have to take the waterpump off. just the fan belt and away you go. If you are at all handy it really is not that big a deal. Spray all the fasteners with penetrating oil the day before. Look at the rotor and put the distributor back in with it pointing in the same direction. If you have the parts you can easily do it in a weekend and be driving it on Monday.