ANTIQUE ENGINE REBUILDING RODS vs SNYDERS

[henry1930ford]

I just bought a set of Snyders rods and I am sorry. They said in the information that the wrist pin wasrough bored. Well it is very rough! The bushing is only pressed in andmust be cut off and chamfered and then .017 stock of bushing must be honed out. This took my local machine shop over an hour and then the rods still needed aligned. TheTotal machine shop bill was $125.00 plus my time and aggravation, which costs much more than if I would have used Antique Engine Rebuilding the rods. The Antique Engine rods are ready for assembly and fit perfect out of the box

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by henry1930ford

I just bought a set of Snyders rods and I am sorry. They said in the information that the wrist pin wasrough bored. Well it is very rough! The bushing is only pressed in andmust be cut off and chamfered and then .017 stock of bushing must be honed out. This took my local machine shop over an hour and then the rods still needed aligned. TheTotal machine shop bill was $125.00 plus my time and aggravation, which costs much more than if I would have used Antique Engine Rebuilding the rods. The Antique Engine rods are ready for assembly and fit perfect out of the box

Yikes...'.017 seems like a but much'..thanks for the heads up !

[azmodela]

Good for Snyders! Since they don't know which pistons you'll use, wrist pins, and other things, it's in their best interest and yours to have them honed to fit your pistons and wrist pins.

Now a question for you henry1930, are you going to continue to participate on the board or did you just sign up and make your first post to complain?

[James Rogers]

Have my first set of Snyder's rods on the way. I'll give a real assessment of them when they arrive tomorrow or Friday. I like Rich's rods but don't condemn the rest before I try them. As far as honing the rod bushings, so what? The ONLY one that sends rods out with finished bushings it AER. Any babbitt rod you buy will have to have the same thing done to it. That's why I bought a rod hone, to do my own.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by henry1930ford

I just bought a set of Snyders rods and I am sorry. They said in the information that the wrist pin wasrough bored. Well it is very rough! The bushing is only pressed in andmust be cut off and chamfered and then .017 stock of bushing must be honed out. This took my local machine shop over an hour and then the rods still needed aligned. TheTotal machine shop bill was $125.00 plus my time and aggravation, which costs much more than if I would have used Antique Engine Rebuilding the rods. The Antique Engine rods are ready for assembly and fit perfect out of the box

Henry, no body should be sending out finished wrist pin holes in any rods, it just isn't done. If you were working with .017 to much material, that is extreme, as normal is about .002, to .003 thousandths. You never know what size the pins will be. The pins should have a clearance of .0003 to .0005 only. And always check rod alignment, no matter what. Thanks Herm.

[d.j. moordigian]

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Herm,

Did you mean .003 to .005 or .0003 to .0005?

Dudley

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Herm,

Did you mean .003 to .005 or .0003 to .0005?

Dudley

Your right d.j., I left out a Zero, thanks for catching it. Herm.

There, got it fixed! Herm.

[d.j. moordigian]

Herm and James,

The Carrillo and Crower rods that I've purchased over the past 37 years came
with finished(pin fitted) pin bores.
So,...are you two saying there is no standard pin diameter for an A or B?

Dudley

[James Rogers]

There are variations. I have not used every rod available but I prefer to fit my own rods. I guess I am just old school in some respects.

BTW, I have had some rods from AER that did not fit correctly and I either fitted them on the hone or replaced the bushing.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Herm and James,

The Carrillo and Crower rods that I've purchased over the past 37 years came
with finished(pin fitted) pin bores.
So,...are you two saying there is no standard pin diameter for an A or B?

Dudley

There is a standard, but some piston companys don't always send them out that way. Thats why the machinest that fits the wrist pins needs the pistons with the wrist pins to check fit in the pistons for the wrist pins, and also in the Rod bushings. Herm.

[van Dyck]

You were right the first time, Herm. .003" to .005" is way too loose on a piston pin bushing. .0003" to .0005" is correct.

[PC/SR]

Just as a general observation, not only on Henry's pins but any fitting parts, with different parts coming from different manufacturers, with different tolerances and measurements, not to mention the wear on your parts, it is better to have things individually fitted, per James and Herm above. Yeh, it costs extra, but it is the difference between "good enough" and the "best."

[mkmskm]

I've been on tours in the babbitt shop that Snyder's uses and its a neat operation, this shop did all of the babbitt work on my engine and does a lot of custom work. The last time I was there they had a hinged connecting rod, I forget what it was off of, but it was interesting machine work.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by henry1930ford

I just bought a set of Snyders rods and I am sorry. They said in the information that the wrist pin wasrough bored. Well it is very rough! The bushing is only pressed in andmust be cut off and chamfered and then .017 stock of bushing must be honed out. This took my local machine shop over an hour and then the rods still needed aligned. TheTotal machine shop bill was $125.00 plus my time and aggravation, which costs much more than if I would have used Antique Engine Rebuilding the rods. The Antique Engine rods are ready for assembly and fit perfect out of the box

Did you contact Snyders first after you discovered this? Did he offer any kind of explanation?? Knowing Don, he just does not knowingly turn out inferior merchandise. Maybe this was a fluke or a mistake that happened on just your set. He is a VERY fair man and strives for 100% satisfaction with each customer.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by mkmskm

I've been on tours in the babbitt shop that Snyder's uses and its a neat operation, this shop did all of the babbitt work on my engine and does a lot of custom work. The last time I was there they had a hinged connecting rod, I forget what it was off of, but it was interesting machine work.

Hinged Rods were used in engines 1915, and below. Many 1 & 2 cylinder cars. Herm.

[jhowes]

Can someone explain a hinged connecting rod. Maybe with a sketch.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Hinged Rods were used in engines 1915, and below. Many 1 & 2 cylinder cars. Herm.

Is that like a six stroke engine atall?
http://youtu.be/bt9NGA0GhQo

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Did you contact Snyders first after you discovered this? Did he offer any kind of explanation?? Knowing Don, he just does not knowingly turn out inferior merchandise. Maybe this was a fluke or a mistake that happened on just your set. He is a VERY fair man and strives for 100% satisfaction with each customer.

I heartedly agree with Brent: Snyder's is a totally honorable operation, in my 30 years experience with them. Give Don a call!

Steve

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by henry1930ford

I just bought a set of Snyders rods and I am sorry. They said in the information that the wrist pin wasrough bored. Well it is very rough! The bushing is only pressed in andmust be cut off and chamfered and then .017 stock of bushing must be honed out. This took my local machine shop over an hour and then the rods still needed aligned. TheTotal machine shop bill was $125.00 plus my time and aggravation, which costs much more than if I would have used Antique Engine Rebuilding the rods. The Antique Engine rods are ready for assembly and fit perfect out of the box

Not only do I think the rods needed to be hone fitted to the wrist pins, 125$ is a pretty high price for what you got. I get 25$ to hone a set and the rods should not have needed aligning, being new. I think you got took by your local shop and you have buyers remorse because of it.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by jhowes

Can someone explain a hinged connecting rod. Maybe with a sketch.

A Hinged rod instead of having a Bolt on each side, has a hinge on one side, and a Bolt on the other. You pull the bolt, and the cap swings open like a house yard gate. You can pull a shim if need be, and put the bolt back in. They are not that much to pour.


One last thing, apparently, some people don't under stand the importance, or Process of Rod alignment. So if you have a Rod, straight or not, when you start, and I don't know how you would tell, with a out of round new bushing. There is No bushing hone made that will hone a bushing in alignment, with the rest of the rod. Always the Famous last words, (( well, I Thought it would have been straight)), That is liking thinking the piston rings don't need gapping, because the last set checked ok, or there New, and shouldn't need it.!

[d.j. moordigian]

When I went to the San Diego meet last year I saw the rods from Antique Engine
Rebuilding...a nice, well finished rod. Also there was another company selling A rods
that used the hollow dowel method to locate the cap to the rod. Anybody know
who makes those rods?

Herm, you are right on about checking before and during assemble! As the engines
get older and some of the parts become inferior, I find my self checking things
that most people never look at/or thought to look at.

Dudley

[Dave in MN]

I ordered a set of the Snyder Rods a few weeks ago. I have been studying them and have not installed them into an engine yet.
I spoke to Tom @ Snyders about the pin bushings not being fitted to the pistons they sell. He stated the bushings are rough bored but final fitting is to be completed by the purchaser. The stated reason: The bushings will fit almost any piston on the market if the final fitting is left to the engine shop. $125.00 is not abnormal as to a charge for the fitting. One needs to factor this cost when deciding which rod to purchase. Snyders makes the following statement on their website regarding Installation Instructions:

Fitting of Wrist Pins

Rods have the wrist pin bushing pressed in, oil holes drilled, and rough bored. You MUST hone the wrist pin bushings to match the wrist pins in your pistons. There is no way we can hone these bushings ahead of time due to variations in wrist pin diameters from one piston manufacturer to another. The clearance between the wrist pin should be .0005". If you do not have the ability to perform this task, we recommend taking your new rods along with your pistons and wrist pins to a local machine shop or motor rebuilder. Most modern motor rebuilders have equipment to perform this work.

This info is only offered in their Installation Instructions. You get these instructions with the rods or from their website.

Good Day!
Dave in MN

[henry1930ford]

The Antique Engine Rebuilding rods that I have used all fit perfect as the piston manufactures have great precision in making a 1.0000 pin. The old practice was to pin fit rod last .002 or .003 as stated as if you were using worn pins. To have hone out .017 is past reasonable. Rebuilt rods for the V8 were pin fitted and aligned.

[Glenn Thoreson]

There were 2 types of rods in common use back then. One was hinged and the other was what we see now. One of them was called a Marine style rod but my feeble old brain can't remember which one.

[jetmek]

People that think they’re gonna do it themselves when they have neither the skills or tools. What do you think the going hourly shop rate is? Ill bet you dont think twice about paying that to have your new lexus serviced. Sorryfor the rant. Really tho those rods could be used With worn pins , oversized pins. Who knows. Thats why they come un finished

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Glenn Thoreson

There were 2 types of rods in common use back then. One was hinged and the other was what we see now. One of them was called a Marine style rod but my feeble old brain can't remember which one.

Glenn, I'm not sure which time period you are speaking of when you say "back then". Hinged rods originated in steam era which was prior to Marine. Some brass-era automobile engines (Oakland being one) used a hinged rods in the pre-teens era. Below are some pics of a 1909 Oakland engine we rebuilt that uses hinged rods. The advantage was the clearances could be taken up using a port in the side of of the block as the crankcase was cast for rigidity. Today, a few manufacturers of extra large stationery engines still use a hinged rod, but they are basically obsolete technology.

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[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jetmek

People that think they’re gonna do it themselves when they have neither the skills or tools. What do you think the going hourly shop rate is? Ill bet you dont think twice about paying that to have your new lexus serviced. Sorryfor the rant. Really tho those rods could be used With worn pins , oversized pins. Who knows. Thats why they come un finished

You are correct.

[jetmek]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Glenn, I'm not sure which time period you are speaking of when you say "back then". Hinged rods originated in steam era which was prior to Marine. Some brass-era automobile engines (Oakland being one) used a hinged rods in the pre-teens era. Below are some pics of a 1909 Oakland engine we rebuilt that uses hinged rods. The advantage was the clearances could be taken up using a port in the side of of the block as the crankcase was cast for rigidity. Today, a few manufacturers of extra large stationery engines still use a hinged rod, but they are basically obsolete technology.

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that sure is pretty 👍👍

[Jim Brierley]

Same story on pistons, I never bore an engine unless I have the pistons in hand as some are more precision than others.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of old threads have been coming back up lately. It must be cabin fever.

[CarlG]

This one is only 8 years old !

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

A lot of old threads have been coming back up lately. It must be cabin fever.

Originally Posted by CarlG

This one is only 8 years old !

You know, for me it is sometimes fun to scroll through these old threads when they are 'brought back from the dead' just to see which Posters are still around making posts, ...and those that for whatever reason are no longer here.



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[old31]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Glenn, I'm not sure which time period you are speaking of when you say "back then". Hinged rods originated in steam era which was prior to Marine. Some brass-era automobile engines (Oakland being one) used a hinged rods in the pre-teens era. Below are some pics of a 1909 Oakland engine we rebuilt that uses hinged rods. The advantage was the clearances could be taken up using a port in the side of of the block as the crankcase was cast for rigidity. Today, a few manufacturers of extra large stationery engines still use a hinged rod, but they are basically obsolete technology.

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It really amazes me whenever I see an engine like that. Put yourself back in that time frame. How did they know what they knew to design, make, install and make everything to work properly.

They could not pick up a manual, could not get on the forum (WHAT), no online , no youtube, no nothing except some very smart people flying by the seat of their pants.

There had to be a few frustrating days scratching there heads saying huh, Duh, sh_t.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by old31

It really amazes me whenever I see an engine like that. Put yourself back in that time frame. How did they know what they knew to design, make, install and make everything to work properly.

They could not pick up a manual, could not get on the forum (WHAT), no online , no youtube, no nothing except some very smart people flying by the seat of their pants.

There had to be a few frustrating days scratching there heads saying huh, Duh, sh_t.

I think in many ways, people back then were not afraid of failure like they are today.

Also, there were many books written on theory and design that were read around the turn of the century. Also, a trade or a craft was a revered asset in which an Apprentice was mentored by a Master Tradesman until the apprentice reached a Journeyman's skill level. The intent was to focus on a craft and excel at it. Because these craftsmen were raised to problem solve on their own, it was easier for them to advance technology as a whole.

Something that I have noticed in my own lifetime is how books or internet are read today. People today rarely read every word of a book or internet thread. Going back 100+ years ago, a book was often read and then re-read over & over until the reader had total comprehension of the topic. Today, if a topic on social media --or even Fordbarn is over 3-4 sentences in length, most readers will not take the time to read it all thoroughly, -much less comprehend that topic.

Adding to my first comment above, it used to be that people would try to figure something out on their own first ...and then when they became stumped, they would seek help. Today, folks are so afraid of failure they will literally spend hours up hours studying a video or website to prepare for a 30 minute task. IMHO, if they had tried to figure it out first, they likely would have been more productive with their time, and they would have advanced their problem solving skills at the same time.

[ursus]

Amen to what Brent said! Many a project stalls out or is never completed because of that very fear of failure.