Who has one of these?

[frnkeore]

I'm been doing some research lately and came across this 1934 engine. These pictures are from the Ford Museum. It must be some kind of a prototype but, it's not dated 1932.

Besides the exhaust, note the water intake.

[Mart]

Might be wrong, but I think that predates series production. in other words pre 1932.
I don't think anyone will have one because they were never sold. If one exists it would be a prototype.
Mart.

[DavidG]

It's a prototype '32 engine. Note the four-bolt timing gear cover for the earliest distributor (which was recalled after being used very briefly in initial production) and the clutch release lever which was intended for a vacuum-assisted clutch which never made it into production, although provision for mounting the vacuum canister on the firewall exists on all '32 firewalls. Note also that the intake manifold was designed to accept a downdraft Zenith carburetor which also did not make it into the production versions. The oil pan appears to be the same as those used initially in production with the drain plug below where the oil pump is located and the dipstick is located in the block rather than the pan on the right side of the engine.

While no starter motor is installed in the photos of this prototype, it would appear that this version is one of those with the starter motor mounted on top of the bell housing. Obviously not a practical location from a packaging perspective.

[skidmarks]

I like the platform its sitting on

[RKS.PA]

Very interesting exhaust manifold configuration!!

[scicala]

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Originally Posted by skidmarks

I like the platform its sitting on

That style engine cart is the type they used at the Ford Engineering dynamometer lab in Dearborn. Makes total sense that the engine is a pre-production '32 prototype that never made it to production.


Sal

[Bubsyouruncle]

I am, or was, a mechanical design engineer for production "stuff".
Given the number of different vertical and horizontal "faces" that were required to match up to put that exhaust system into mass production. I am not surprised it didn't make it into production. Wiser heads prevailed.

[frnkeore]

I'm sure that exhaust system would have been worth at least 5 hp over what the production version was to be. Much more than that in a high performance application!

It looks good, too.

[35fordtn]

Neat photo! Whilst I don’t have the engine I have the heads very similar or the same as those in the photo. They are aluminum 1932 Ford heads that have never been run and never made it into production. The story behind them from the previous owner was the only reason I paid the crazy price for them.

[mfirth]

Don't know about the engine, but the paint on the stand is what i call Ford industrial blue.
I did life cycle testing for Ford for many years & my test equipment was that color.
Neat pic, thanks.

[jimTN]

Somewhere there is a picture of that engine setting in the old mill bldg. at the then Greenfield Village. Story is that it was sold in the big auction along with other experimental engines. It most likely is out there in someone's private collection.

[frnkeore]

More prototypes.

[deuce_roadster]

I count 25 head studs. More oddities.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

I count 25 head studs. More oddities.

Well I didn’t even notice that. The 32 aluminum heads I have are of the typical 21 stud variety

[deuce lover]

I count 21,not 25 .Those 4 on the second row up I don't believe are studs.

[tubman]

Boy, lookit the distance from the valves to the cylinders! I'll bet that one didn't breath for shit.

[Mart]

I'm getting 20 studs.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by tubman

Boy, lookit the distance from the valves to the cylinders! I'll bet that one didn't breath for shit.

Look at the small intake slots! Hard to imagine the effort and expense that went into building all of these one off engines for development testing.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

Boy, lookit the distance from the valves to the cylinders! I'll bet that one didn't breath for shit.

….especially when you look at the TINY intake ports! DD

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Hard to imagine the effort and expense that went into building all of these one off engines for development testing.

Chump change for Henry! In fact, he didn't even want to change to a V8. DD

[5851a]

The engineers in that era must have worked long and hard hours. Would have been something to be young then and 10 years under your belt into WWII production, then on and on.

[Ronnieroadster]

When visiting Speedway motors museum in August of 2016 during a private tour we visited the engine room where projects were being worked on to be completed so they could be put on display. That very engine design was one of the many engines in this room the intake ports as well as the starter location were identical one head was missing and some of the exhaust pipes were there. Our guide said it was donated by the individual who purchased it from that big auction. Our visit was a stop along the way on our first trip to Bonneville to run our Flathead roadster where we set two pretty fast records first time out. When i saw the exhaust layout of that early design my mind was thinking boy what could have been certainly more HP.
So at least one of those prototypes exists and y now i bet its on display for all to see in that museum.
Ronnieroadster

[JSeery]

I have seen later modified flatheads with that exhaust arrangement.

[uncle buck]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

When visiting Speedway motors museum in August of 2016 during a private tour we visited the engine room where projects were being worked on to be completed so they could be put on display. That very engine design was one of the many engines in this room the intake ports as well as the starter location were identical one head was missing and some of the exhaust pipes were there. Our guide said it was donated by the individual who purchased it from that big auction. Our visit was a stop along the way on our first trip to Bonneville to run our Flathead roadster where we set two pretty fast records first time out. When i saw the exhaust layout of that early design my mind was thinking boy what could have been certainly more HP.
So at least one of those prototypes exists and y now i bet its on display for all to see in that museum.
Ronnieroadster

Speedy Bill had several engines displayed that were purchased at that auction. The tour guide I had said most were auctioned by accident and Ford tried to get them back.

[rotorwrench]

Discounting the Lincoln stuff, Ford started getting serious about a V8 in 1926 after the X-block wasn't cutting it. He really wanted to put them in the model A but it just wasn't there yet. He was also having some of his engineers try to rework the model T type transmission for the model A but I'm not sure if he was wanting just a two speed or if they were shooting for a 3-speed. Henry was not conventional in his way of thinking. Reality of the problems they ran into had a way of putting things back in a place that is more realistic with what they could do at the time. We know pretty much what the model A ended up with but even that went though constant improvement. The V8 was still being bounced around at the Ford Lab and over at the old Edison shop at Greenfield Village to try and get it to fruition until they finally settled on a prototype they could work with and even that was updated a lot during the 1st year of production.

Speedy Bill ended up with one of those early V8 prototypes and it's still in his museum as far as I know.

Here is another photo from The Henry Ford. The photo is dated March 1932 but it could have begun in the prototype process several years before 1932. In that stage you can tell than at least some patterns were made to cast the parts. The production engine is a bit different from the initial designs.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...lide=gs-213512



These photos show other experiments.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/index....-ford-engines/

[frnkeore]

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This is the actual #1 production engine.

[DavidG]

One of many fascinating things about the engine in the photo from the Henry Ford is that it is configured for RHD. Obviously they never tried to install it in a chassis as it would have been obvious that one of the characteristics that survived into the earliest production version was the location of the dipstick (in the block itself just forward of the bell housing). That was a seriously dumb idea as you will note from the attached photo. It is nearly impossible to remove it to check the oil and replace it in a RHD '32 chassis, even one without the added complication of the added legs on the center cross member which was a very early service campaign, among many.

[DavidG]

Regarding the two photos labeled as the #1 production engine, the available evidence at the BFRC suggests the engine is neither # 242, 243, nor 244, the engines which according to the BFRC's records were all completed on March 7, 1932 as the first production engines. The transmission, however, is the one that Henry Ford himself stamped on the assembly line on March 10th, complete with the upside down 8 in 18-1 as it exactly matches that in the photos taken of the event of Job #1.

[rotorwrench]

The conventional stories about the V8 all seem to point to how rapid they would try a design and dump it when it broke. They had a least two designs to compete with. They had to have made a lot of mistakes until they got a design that they were confident with. The penchant for secrecy clouds a lot of the history of the V8. Working over at Greenfield Village must have been a pain for Carl Schults, Fred Thoms, Ray Laird, & Emile Zoerlein. Others were Don Sullivan, Lew Walters, Bob Heime, and Jimmy Smith. Henry always pitted one team of engineers against another in these things. I'm sure the pattern makers were not even told what they were making when they geared up to cast most of the parts. They had to fight Henry over oil pumps, water pumps and you name it. It's a wonder they did it in as short a time as they did considering the stress they were likely under to get this job done.

Having the starter in those early locations would have been a big work around too. I've read one account about the exhaust system causing lots of problems until the made the exits out the side. Can you imagine having an exhaust pipe on the front next to the water pump and going over the distributor. Some of that stuff was way out there. The crazy thing is that a lot of that stuff was likely at Henry's insistence until they found out it was a no go. Henry was a lot like Thomas Edison was in that respect. It will work until it proves itself not to. Keep on trying until it works. It might take a thousand try outs but eventually one will work.

[frnkeore]

Does anyone have a idea of the purpose may have been for the boss, over what appears to be the center of the cylinders on the #1 engine?

It looks to small to be a alternate location for a spark plug.

[rotorwrench]

It may have been to add some strength in that spot due to some previous problem or a perceived problem. I think it was Emil Zoerlein who mentioned that they had a lot of cracking problems due to the thickness of the castings and core shift. They were learning how to make a block and other parts that would last and they had a 2-year learning curve just to get a monoblock engine that actually could go into production. No one had ever done it successfully before. Henry just couldn't stand the thought of building a 6-cylinder or a straight 8 like many others had. The Ford cars would be a bit shorter with a V8 in there.

[Lawrie]

Lucky for us, they built a great engine,it will hold its own even today.
Lawrie

[Mart]

Those extra bosses look to be centered over the cylinders. They must have had lots of these engines running on test beds. Pure guess but they may have been able to be drilled and tapped to allow pressure sensors to be fitted as part of the testing and development. I remember an engine at college that had such a sensor fitted. It would produce a graph, on paper of cylinder pressure during the cycle.
I think. Could be wrong.
Mart.

[DavidG]

There were 241 prototype builds before the first was approved for production use (#242).

[rotorwrench]

Charles Sorenen has some interesting input on the development process. He wasn't in the design team but he may have been involved in the experimental castings at the foundry. He was busy setting up for a way to tool up for the eventual production casting process. They needed to make a lot of blocks fast so he was in charge of setting up chutes for casting sand and then the patterns were rapidly jolted with a series downward drops during the filling process to better pack the sand. He helped to set up a moving, specially designed crucible that would hold 2000 pounds of molten iron that could follow along with the mold flask line and pour them on the move. There was a larger electric smelter that would keep the moving crucibles filled during the process. They could test and control the iron mixture better doing it this way. The process of manufacture was just as important as the design in getting a good sturdy block. The way the crankshafts were poured came later. The initial ones were forged but that was largely due to the casting development process not being ready yet.

[Ronnieroadster]

Its amazing to think 87 years after the beginning of production were all still enjoying this incredible design. At times I wonder what the original design team would think of how this design is still being used by so many and also about how the peak HP some of us are able to get from less than 300 cubic inches. For the design team it was labor for rest of us its been a labor of love.
Ronnieroadster

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Chump change for Henry! In fact, he didn't even want to change to a V8. DD

Is that a fact? Henry wanted something revolutionary to replace his beloved Model T & had X8 cylinder engines working but could not overcome tech. problems. The Model A he was not really keen on [ too conventional] but had to replace outdated Model T quickly.
The X8 led to experimenting for an en block V8 which started in 1930 & continued until success in early '32. Probably Henrys finest achievement?


Cheers

[bob miller]

this summer in the Henry ford muséum , dearborn