Sometimes I get tired of it

[pooch]

Of people who parrot or repeat things they hear without trying it or experimenting themselves.

I have read 100/s of times the virtue of 50/50 acetone/ATF mix as an alternative to branded name concoctions.

Well, I tried it, and IT DOES NOT WORK .

It evaporates almost instantly, then I tried less acetone and it did nothing, and then I tried straight ATF.

The straight ATF was the best , but still not as good as the lowly WD40.

[40 Deluxe]

pooch, you make a very good point! If we don't know for certain the answer to someone's question, we should not "answer" it! Wrong information is worse by far than no information. Half right/half wrong information is no better!
This is supposedly the "information age" what with the internet, social media, etc., but I think it's more like the "MIS-information age"! Too many people love to repeat things they only half heard, details that they forgot so they make stuff up, or they didn't fully understand what they heard or read so they are really in the dark. If this has happened to us (and it hits all of us at one time or another), we just need to refrain from giving "advice"!

[old31]

This is from an article that I found.


The April/May 2007 edition of Machinist's Workshop did atest of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen rustytest devices. The lower the number of pounds the better. Mighty interestingresults for simple acetone and tranny fluid!


Penetrating oil . Averageload ..


None ................. 516 pounds ..


WD-40 .............. 238pounds ..


PB Blaster ......... 214pounds ..


Liquid Wrench ... 127pounds ..


Kano Kroil ......... 106pounds ..


ATF-Acetone mix.. 53pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix was a 50/50 mix (1 to 1 ratio).

[Dodge]

Your doing something wrong. ATF and Acetone is the best I have ever used. Maybe where you live it was too hot. If you want to slow it down a bit use kerosene instead of acetone.
You also can’t just put it on and go for it, it needs to work in and maybe a few applications and a little heat.
Give it another try.

[Hoogah]

Meanwhile, your nail polish will just have to stay ON, Pooch!!

[Kevin in NJ]

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My brother being a professional mechanic has has to deal with just about everything in his 40+ years. So I have some extra knowledge on taking stuck bolts out.

The basic fact is a fastener that is fully oxidized in place will not allow the penetrating fluid in as there is no space. There are some that are just so bad that only mechanical or heat methods will work and some that just can not come out in one piece.

I have watched my brother beat the living crap out of the aluminum surrounding the bolts of a outlet that has a thermostat. The bolts came out in one piece. He hates having to drill them out as it costs him money.

Then there was the week I put Kroil on the head studs on my A engine as a test. NONE had any signs of penetrating fluid in the threads for the ones that came out. The others just broke, but based on the erosion at the base we knew they would likely break. You can look at the deck and see the bolt has some metal missing and no longer has the strength to handle the torque needed to make the threads move.

[Growley bear]

What causes rust/corrosion? Water and in the case of dissimilar metals electrolysis. A small amount of heat applied to the offending fastener and a light spray of water will dissolve rust. A mechanic needs patience in this area.
After working in flat rate shops for over fifty years under the whip, I find myself at times trying to hurry a job when I don't have to.

[jhowes]

I am surprised at the post #3 of OLD31's. I was always taught that WD 40 was just a water displacement (hence the WD), and not a very good spray for removing rusted parts. This test says otherwise. Interesting stuff. Jack

[katy]

Originally Posted by jhowes

I am surprised at the post #3 of OLD31's. I was always taught that WD 40 was just a water displacement (hence the WD), and not a very good spray for removing rusted parts. This test says otherwise. Interesting stuff. Jack

When removing fasteners any lubrication is better than none.

[Curtis in MA]

I'm surprised MMO Wasn't included.

[dumb person]

Actually AFT & acetone mixture isn't that bad. Works well for me, better than WD40. It does loose the acetone content rather rapidly to evaporation though.

Perhaps you'd used an offbrand substitute.

[ursus]

Try a 50:50 mix of MMO and acetone.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by dumb person

Actually AFT & acetone mixture isn't that bad. Works well for me, better than WD40. It does loose the acetone content rather rapidly to evaporation though.

Perhaps you'd used an offbrand substitute.

When I've tried it it never mixed together just separated out in the jar -Karl

[100IH]

Location, location location-- where you got your years of experience is everything. Northern climes where they use salt get the best workout. Southern or desert states are much easier on the poor fellow trying to make book time. I'm glad I got my years in, in California and Idaho.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Hoogah

Meanwhile, your nail polish will just have to stay ON, Pooch!!

Best laugh for ages!

[42merc]

Pooch-
I agree with you. It did nothing for me.
The acetone & atf thread pops up about every 6 months.

[Patrick L.]

I guess some things just don't work for everyone. Maybe its a geographical thing, [].
Acetone/ATF has worked for me for 60 yrs and was taught it by my grandfather so its been around awhile.
However, that said, there are better things. Each task may require something different. When appropriate I prefer heat.

[Robert/Texas]

Several years ago we had a plumber changing the shower head in our 60+ year old house. The pipe was frozen at a joint deep inside the wall. He was squirting something in there and trying to work it loose with a big pipe wrench. He told me that would need to break some of the tiles to get the pipe out. I asked him to wait while I mixed some acetone and ATF. It only took a minute or so after soaking it with a paint brush when the pipe came loose. The plumber was amazed.

[30 Mike]

The very best rust breaker ihave ever used was Breakfree i used to get it from a friend in the military. He said they cleaned the big guns with it? It came in 5 gal. od green cans and when i say minutes... it seemed like seconds. ( probably why i went bald at 26) lol

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by 30 Mike

The very best rust breaker ihave ever used was Breakfree i used to get it from a friend in the military. He said they cleaned the big guns with it? It came in 5 gal. od green cans and when i say minutes... it seemed like seconds. ( probably why i went bald at 26) lol

Mike,

The Military gets to use stuff that civilians can't use.

When March AFB, near my house, was decommissioned and turned over to the State for use by the Air National Guard, the State and Riverside County found pits that the Air Force used to dump their highly toxic stuff.

The AF used stuff that EPA and California had banned. I don't think the AF had to report or get approval from local, State or Federal agencies to use it.

My neighbor used to manage the Base Hobby Shop where guys could work on their cars. He had a very nicely equipped garage at home.

David Serrano

[Rudolph]

Milk is good for un seizing an engine that had alloy pistons.

[3.6rs]

Originally Posted by Curtis in MA

I'm surprised MMO Wasn't included.

I was thinking the same !
And my experience ; MMO much better than WD40.

[3.6rs]

https://www.engineeringforchange.org...netrating-oil/

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by 3.6rs

https://www.engineeringforchange.org...netrating-oil/

===============================================



Wow, these collage student tests (like the atf/acetone and this test) are
a big freegin joke.
A nut and bolt that has been in salt water for a week, could be takin
apart with your fingers.
They let these nuts and bolts sit in salt water for a week, boy that is
hardly a comparison for Real World Metal, that has rusted together for
years, and almost welded together. That is when you need a great
penetrating oil.
Manufacturers spend lots of time and money testing products that
have the BEST chance at penetrating Real Rust, and yes, some are
better than others, but I have not seen a product made from acetone
and mixed with anything that any manufacturer has put on the market.










.

[pooch]

Most of these tests are guffaw.

But I can't figure why they do it if they are not selling something ?

Anyway on another point.

There was a bit of a craze a few years ago on these wrist bands with some miracle metal plug attached.

The scam was..... you outstretch your arms and turn and point your straight arm to the furthest point around.


THEN you put on the wrist band and do the same,


WOW, miraculously you can go another 10 degrees around.


It MUST work, that is $60 thankyou very much.

I did my own test.


In the morning, I put the band on first , then turned, then removed it .... and guess what... I could turn 10 degrees more without it.

It was not the wrist band doing anything, it was the pre stretching of the muscles on the first turn.

They scammed millions.

[Nathan_1929]

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As an engineer, I get tired of... anti-science personal anecdotes.

Originally Posted by pooch

Of people who parrot or repeat things they hear without trying it or experimenting themselves.

I have read 100/s of times the virtue of 50/50 acetone/ATF mix as an alternative to branded name concoctions.

Well, I tried it, and IT DOES NOT WORK .

It evaporates almost instantly, then I tried less acetone and it did nothing, and then I tried straight ATF.

The straight ATF was the best , but still not as good as the lowly WD40.

Your sample size of a single failure doesn't discredit the rest of us who have used the process successfully.

The fact that your mixture is evaporating instantly leads me to suspect you're not actually experimenting with a 50/50 mix of atf and acetone.

Originally Posted by Lanny

Wow, these collage student tests (like the atf/acetone and this test) are
a big freegin joke.

...

Manufacturers spend lots of time and money testing products

Is the Machinists Workshop Magazine a collEge paper?

Where is your test data that qualifies you to discredit the research?

How do you think the manufacturers test their products? Probably in a controlled, repeatable environment. What do you suggest?

Originally Posted by pooch

Most of these tests are guffaw.

How do you figure?

I did my own test.

In the morning, I put the band on first , then turned, then removed it .... and guess what... I could turn 10 degrees more without it.

It was not the wrist band doing anything, it was the pre stretching of the muscles on the first turn.

They scammed millions.

Including you, apparently. What point does this prove?

[Lanny]

Nathan, I've been soaking a Truly Rusty bolt, that is on an old trailer hitch part,
for well over a year in ATF. At first I was mixing acetone with it for a while.
The acetone separates from the atf, after a short while, so I had to keep shaking
it up, and after doing that for a couple weeks, the acetone was evaporated, so I
added more acetone, and keep shaking it up to keep it mixed, after the acetone
evaporated again, I have just been letting the Rusty part with the Rusty bolt
soak in atf, and as I said, it's been soaking for well over a year. I take it out every
now and then, and even with good wrenches, the nut won't budge from the bolt.

It has proven to be a big waste of time.
If you get a rusty nut or bolt loose with atf/acetone mix, then it WASN'T very rusty.
And on a hot day, out in the open air, the acetone evaporates very quickly.






.

[Synchro909]

Some people taking part in this thread (which is about people parroting things they have heard without the knowledge to back it up, not just Acetone/ATF mix) could become aggressive or abusive. Keep it nice, guys. Good to see it hasn't gone that way too much yet but.....
There is another oft repeated line out there about overheating. Many say that if the water circulates too quickly, it doesn't spend long enough in the radiator to cool down so the motor gets hot. Well, if it circulates that quickly, it won't be spending enough time in the engine to get hot either. Then there are those who say when water is discharged from the top tank that the pump is moving more than the core can handle so it must be plugged up. Think about that. The only place the pump can get water is from the bottom of the radiator. That water must have already gone through the core from the top tank, thus leaving exactly the same amount of space there for what ever the pump delivers. It is a closed system and only circulates what is in it. Water overflowing the top tank is therefore not caused by the pump being too strong. Grinding impeller vanes is would not be addressing the issue.
Some cars used to have a wire coil (like a spring) in the bottom radiator hose to stop it collapsing when the thermostat was still closed and the pump was trying to move more water than it could get. A restricted radiator would cause the same thing and that was a dead give away for a restricted radiator. The Model A has a solid bottom hose so don't have that diagnostic tool. Now, to get a conversation going, I'd like to outline a test I think would prove whether a radiator is restricted on a Model A. From experience, I know there will be some who already disagree with what I have said but I hold the above to be true.
I haven't had the need to use this test but it all makes sense to me. I'd like to hear (respectfully) what others think of this:
Remove the thermostat if you have one and refill the cooling system. Attach a tube to the drain cock in the bottom hose and submerge the other end in a container of water on the floor under the car. Start the engine and run it at medium revs. Open the drain cock. If the core is blocked, the pump will be trying to move more water than the core can provide so it will suck water from the container on the floor. If the level drops quickly, you have a restricted radiator. The quicker it drops, the worse the restriction. A slow drop might be observed even if the radiator is new so that wouldn't cause for a lot of concern. If the level in the container on the floor rises, your radiator is super good. Give yourself a smiley stamp.

[42merc]

Originally Posted by Lanny

Nathan, I've been soaking a Truly Rusty bolt, that is on an old trailer hitch part,
for well over a year in ATF. At first I was mixing acetone with it for a while.
The acetone separates from the atf, after a short while, so I had to keep shaking
it up, and after doing that for a couple weeks, the acetone was evaporated, so I
added more acetone, and keep shaking it up to keep it mixed, after the acetone
evaporated again, I have just been letting the Rusty part with the Rusty bolt
soak in atf, and as I said, it's been soaking for well over a year. I take it out every
now and then, and even with good wrenches, the nut won't budge from the bolt.

It has proven to be a big waste of time.
If you get a rusty nut or bolt loose with atf/acetone mix, then it WASN'T very rusty.
And on a hot day, out in the open air, the acetone evaporates very quickly.






.

This my take on the magic mix.

[28]

Good discussion. I haven’t had an issue with rusty bolts in years due to starting to use impact drivers. I have an occasional problem with cam out and if it’s really bad I’ll use an easy out. I don’t even use penetrating lubricants anymore.

[redmodelt]

WD-40 does make a penetrating oil for what it's worth.

[katy]

FWIW, diesel fuel makes a good penetrating oil.

FWIW, I read once, somewhere, that when steel turns to rust it expands to 27 times its original size. No wonder it's so hard to get rusted parts apart.

[Railcarmover]

Been using weasel piss professionally for forty years,this is the best Ive seen..

[100IH]

I liked the plot farmers with the little feet.

[pbishop]

Adding 'heat' to rusted nuts after using 'concoctions' and then letting sit for a spell greatly improves results (expansion factor).

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Some people taking part in this thread (which is about people parroting things they have heard without the knowledge to back it up, not just Acetone/ATF mix) could become aggressive or abusive. Keep it nice, guys. Good to see it hasn't gone that way too much yet but.....
There is another oft repeated line out there about overheating. Many say that if the water circulates too quickly, it doesn't spend long enough in the radiator to cool down so the motor gets hot. Well, if it circulates that quickly, it won't be spending enough time in the engine to get hot either. Then there are those who say when water is discharged from the top tank that the pump is moving more than the core can handle so it must be plugged up. Think about that. The only place the pump can get water is from the bottom of the radiator. That water must have already gone through the core from the top tank, thus leaving exactly the same amount of space there for what ever the pump delivers. It is a closed system and only circulates what is in it. Water overflowing the top tank is therefore not caused by the pump being too strong. Grinding impeller vanes is would not be addressing the issue.
Some cars used to have a wire coil (like a spring) in the bottom radiator hose to stop it collapsing when the thermostat was still closed and the pump was trying to move more water than it could get. A restricted radiator would cause the same thing and that was a dead give away for a restricted radiator. The Model A has a solid bottom hose so don't have that diagnostic tool. Now, to get a conversation going, I'd like to outline a test I think would prove whether a radiator is restricted on a Model A. From experience, I know there will be some who already disagree with what I have said but I hold the above to be true.
I haven't had the need to use this test but it all makes sense to me. I'd like to hear (respectfully) what others think of this:
Remove the thermostat if you have one and refill the cooling system. Attach a tube to the drain cock in the bottom hose and submerge the other end in a container of water on the floor under the car. Start the engine and run it at medium revs. Open the drain cock. If the core is blocked, the pump will be trying to move more water than the core can provide so it will suck water from the container on the floor. If the level drops quickly, you have a restricted radiator. The quicker it drops, the worse the restriction. A slow drop might be observed even if the radiator is new so that wouldn't cause for a lot of concern. If the level in the container on the floor rises, your radiator is super good. Give yourself a smiley stamp.

I’ve thought the same thing. I have a rebuilt engine in my test stand now , and was thinking of a way to stop flow thru the lower hose, to see if the radiator would then overflow as the block was emptied. However your petcock idea is an interesting way to prove the same thing!

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I’ve thought the same thing. I have a rebuilt engine in my test stand now , and was thinking of a way to stop flow thru the lower hose, to see if the radiator would then overflow as the block was emptied. However your petcock idea is an interesting way to prove the same thing!

Chuck, If you were to block off the bottom hose, the block would not empty because there is nothing able to replace the water in there. All that would happen is the pump would turn and stir the water near the impeller and nothing would come out the top. The impeller might even cause cavitation.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Because the overflow is open to the atmosphere, the system isn't a truly closed system. My car and many others have proved that when rust flakes or grease blocks the tops of the radiator tubes, the water pump can, and will, fill the top tank and overflow out the overflow tube. Then things really start cooking!

[eagle]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Because the overflow is open to the atmosphere, the system isn't a truly closed system. My car and many others have proved that when rust flakes or grease blocks the tops of the radiator tubes, the water pump can, and will, fill the top tank and overflow out the overflow tube. Then things really start cooking!

So what is in the rest of the cooling system that allows water to flow out of it faster than it flows in? Air? Where did it come from? If the top tank is so full it overflows then air can't get by the water to displace water in the radiator. Only if you have a leak. Water or antifreeze can't expand under vacuum... However, as soon as some of the water/coolant flashes to steam you instantly get an expansion of 1700 times! Now THAT is trouble. A very small amount of water turning to steam will quickly displace a LOT of water.

[Growley bear]

50/50 mix MMO/Acetone or ATF ?? The acetone acts as a surfactant and through capillary action carries the lubricant into the troubled area.
I have had much better luck with a little heat followed by a spritz if water. Not red hot or even close, just warm enough to cause the parts to expand and the water contracts and is drawn in. This some times needs to be repeated numerous times. The water also acts as a temporary lubricant and also dissolves the rust/corrosion. What better product to free up rusted nuts/bolts than the product that made it? A little heat, a little water, a lot of patience.
Maybe a surfactant added to the water would be an aid?

[dumb person]

Not all ATF is created equal. Some are more readily dissolved into the acetone than others.
http://Youtube video proof.

[California Travieso]

I put some rusty tools in a pan of Evapo-Rust and forgot about them for a couple weeks. When I checked the pan half of the Evapo-Rust had evaporated! Not sure if the Evapo part refers to the liquid or the rust. Maybe someone knows?

David Serrano