Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-30-2020, 03:41 PM   #1
Chris Haynes
Senior Member
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Camarillo, CA and Pine Grove, CA
Posts: 2,830
Default Coil mounting position.

Several guys i know have made a bracket to turn the coil upside down and shorten the coil to distributor wire. Is there any science that shows that this is beneficial?
__________________
1921 Runabout
1930 Tudor
Early 1930 AA
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Chris Haynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 04:00 PM   #2
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

I don't understand the question. Henry placed the coil with terminals facing down. To turn it up he other way, the coil to distributor wire has to be lengthened, not shortened and yes, I turn the coil terminals up. I was having too many coil failures till someone told me to turn the coil over. I have done that on all 4 of my Model As and haven't had a failure since. I don't care why that is, just that it is.
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-30-2020, 04:16 PM   #3
Chris Haynes
Senior Member
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Camarillo, CA and Pine Grove, CA
Posts: 2,830
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Syncro. Their mounting bracket lowers the coil.
__________________
1921 Runabout
1930 Tudor
Early 1930 AA
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Chris Haynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 07:42 AM   #4
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Several guys i know have made a bracket to turn the coil upside down and shorten the coil to distributor wire. Is there any science that shows that this is beneficial?



Depends on the coil. Tar or epoxy filled coils don't care how they are mounted. Oil filled coils do, they don't like to be tipped upside down.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 07:57 AM   #5
McMimmcs
Senior Member
 
McMimmcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,296
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Sounds like it was mounted wrong in the first place.
McMimmcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 08:37 AM   #6
jm29henry
Senior Member
 
jm29henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,126
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Ford and it’s engineers over 90 years ago designed it facing down,and it has worked well, my opinion if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ,
jm29henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 08:49 AM   #7
Big hammer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Land of Lincoln
Posts: 3,114
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

I think ford mounted the coil terminal down to keep water out of the high tension terminal, he didn't use the rubber nipple on the coil wire, probably saved a penny or two!
__________________
Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap
get a bigger hammer tap done
Big hammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 09:25 AM   #8
frank55a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 928
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

This is an original Ford photo showing how the original coil was mounted.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 28087.jpg (51.6 KB, 145 views)
frank55a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 01:34 PM   #9
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,389
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

I don't think it makes any difference in how long the coil to dist wire is, think about a 6' extension cord vs a 50' extension cord, both have 110 at the ends................
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 02:39 PM   #10
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Yep, the length of the wire doesn't make much difference with the coil wire or condenser mounted at the coil. Electrons are pretty quick little buggers.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 03:34 PM   #11
duke36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

The new oil coils aren't filled full so the internal windings don't appear to get get coverage. Terminals up as suggested for those. Am also interested in the engineering explaining why some suggest the condensers can't be located up by the coil for less engine heat exposure.
Read somewhere that there is a relationship between point pitting, capacitance and wire lengths.

Last edited by duke36; 10-31-2020 at 03:46 PM.
duke36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 04:10 PM   #12
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,099
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

The condenser can be mounted next to the coil and work for years if the condenser is a good one . I have used a modern condenser connected to the switch side of the coil for fourteen years on one of my model A's . If a person says that it won't work they simply don't know what they are talking about . I had one guy tell me on this forum a few years ago that it wouldn't work and he knew because he was an engineer . The guy said that the condenser must be close to the distributor , My reply was if the coil is mounted on the firewall in the usual location it will be plenty close enough to the distributor . Some of the older model A guys that I have known have knew this for over 60 years . The condenser must connect to the switch side of the coil . The condenser needs a good ground where it mounts or it probably won't work .
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 04:29 PM   #13
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke36 View Post
The new oil coils aren't filled full so the internal windings don't appear to get get coverage. Terminals up as suggested for those. Am also interested in the engineering explaining why some suggest the condensers can't be located up by the coil for less engine heat exposure.
Read somewhere that there is a relationship between point pitting, capacitance and wire lengths.



There is a relation between capacitance and pitting. I forget which is which though, I knew at one time.

I don't believe wire length has much to do with it though, within reason.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 04:41 PM   #14
warhorseracing
Member
 
warhorseracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Cameron WV
Posts: 59
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

he knew because he was an engineer . Well I am an engineer too. I run my trains around the Christmas tree every year. So there. I have several people tell me that they are an engineer or were related to one or knew one, bla bla bla. You would need to be an electrical engineer for this topic as even a structural engineer would not be qualified to intelligently argue this one. A structural engineer will not put his legal stamp on that kind of statement for which he could be held legally responsible.
warhorseracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 05:03 PM   #15
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,099
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

My answer was from experience .
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 06:50 AM   #16
updraught
Senior Member
 
updraught's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,967
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

I used Google.

"If the tungsten transfers from the negative to the positive point one or two corrections may be made. Increase the capacity of the condenser, shorten the condenser lead, separate high and low tension leads between the coil and distributor, move these leads closer to the engine block. If the transfer is from the positive to negative point, reduce condenser capacity, move low and high leads closer together and/or away from the engine block, or lengthen condenser lead."
http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm
updraught is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 10:21 AM   #17
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 6,140
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorseracing View Post
he knew because he was an engineer . Well I am an engineer too. I run my trains around the Christmas tree every year. So there. I have several people tell me that they are an engineer or were related to one or knew one, bla bla bla. You would need to be an electrical engineer for this topic as even a structural engineer would not be qualified to intelligently argue this one. A structural engineer will not put his legal stamp on that kind of statement for which he could be held legally responsible.
The structural engineer needs to be consulted because of modifications to the mounting location, vibration and strength issues
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 12:25 PM   #18
duke36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by updraught View Post
I used Google.

"If the tungsten transfers from the negative to the positive point one or two corrections may be made. Increase the capacity of the condenser, shorten the condenser lead, separate high and low tension leads between the coil and distributor, move these leads closer to the engine block. If the transfer is from the positive to negative point, reduce condenser capacity, move low and high leads closer together and/or away from the engine block, or lengthen condenser lead."
http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm
Ok; so does any one have a condenser part no. and wire size for 12 volt neg. grnd?
The attached diagram is from the net also, and suggests a short piece of wire is needed with the condenser grounded to the firewall, etc. or attached to the coil bracket. Is that correct ?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf condensor at coil and wiring.pdf (49.1 KB, 41 views)
duke36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 02:02 PM   #19
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke36 View Post
Ok; so does any one have a condenser part no. and wire size for 12 volt neg. grnd?
The attached diagram is from the net also, and suggests a short piece of wire is needed with the condenser grounded to the firewall, etc. or attached to the coil bracket. Is that correct ?




Actually most condensers have the mounting bracket connected to its body, no extra wire usually needed. So about any quality condenser with the mounting tab and point attachment wire/pigtail can be mounted to the coil.

With the poor quality of points and condensers today I think its a good to pay and hope you get one ones. I keep a known good one attached to the coil bracket but left disconnected until needed.

Auto condensers/capacitors have a microfarad range from .2-.3 with most being in the .25-.28 range. So excessive pitting doesn't happen very often

I recently went thru a bad condenser situation. 5 new 'burn-proof' condensers were junk. So the car now has 2 old known good ones in it.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 02:56 PM   #20
shew01
Senior Member
 
shew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA USA
Posts: 1,905
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
I keep a known good one attached to the coil bracket but left disconnected until needed.
I’ve seen similar recommendations for this type of configuration in the past, and I’m still trying to understand how this would work. Can you post a picture? What do you “plug into” the condenser to complete the configuration when it is needed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 03:33 PM   #21
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Syncro. Their mounting bracket lowers the coil.
Chris, The coil can't be lowered by more than a fraction of an inch. It will hit the line where firewall and the panel in front of the fuel tank meet. See photo in post #8.
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 06:53 PM   #22
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
I’ve seen similar recommendations for this type of configuration in the past, and I’m still trying to understand how this would work. Can you post a picture? What do you “plug into” the condenser to complete the configuration when it is needed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just look at Dukes PDF
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-01-2020, 08:02 PM   #23
shew01
Senior Member
 
shew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA USA
Posts: 1,905
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Just look at Dukes PDF

So, for positive ground you would screw the condenser (using its leg with a hole in it) onto the positive coil terminal and have a spare jumper wire that would screw into the end of the condenser and connect to the body (positive) ground when you want to complete the circuit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 08:27 PM   #24
1955cj5
Senior Member
 
1955cj5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,576
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Here is the way I did it...as yet untested though...

The condenser is attached to one of the cowl seam bolts, and the flag end is loose for now, but the idea is to slip it under the nut that holds the red switched wire when needed....

The big question is, if it quits running, how would you know it's the condenser?

Just try it I suppose....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1040272.JPG (108.0 KB, 41 views)
__________________
Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62
1955cj5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 10:10 PM   #25
duke36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Found another schematic for negative ground which appears to be what we need. I don't recall that condensers are polarity sensitive. Perhaps 16 ga. wire would be ok for 6 and 12 volt for the short run ? Plenty of space on '30-'31's to turn oil filled coils terminals up.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf condensor at coil and wiring.pdf (49.1 KB, 25 views)
duke36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 07:08 AM   #26
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
So, for positive ground you would screw the condenser (using its leg with a hole in it) onto the positive coil terminal and have a spare jumper wire that would screw into the end of the condenser and connect to the body (positive) ground when you want to complete the circuit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



?????? No.

Pretty much all condensers except ours have the mounting bracket/flange attached to the condenser body. Bolt the condenser to the firewall [ using the coil bracket]. Take the little wire coming out of the end of the condenser and let it dangle until needed. When needed just attach it to the coil terminal as in the diagram.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 07:10 AM   #27
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
So, for positive ground you would screw the condenser (using its leg with a hole in it) onto the positive coil terminal and have a spare jumper wire that would screw into the end of the condenser and connect to the body (positive) ground when you want to complete the circuit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



?????? No.

Pretty much all condensers except ours have the mounting bracket/flange attached to the condenser body. Bolt the condenser to the firewall [ using the coil bracket]. Take the little wire coming out of the end of the condenser and let it dangle until needed. When needed just attach it to the coil terminal as in the diagram. The condenser is mounted in parallel with the points. It doesn't make much difference where its mounted as long as it ends up being in parallel.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 07:57 AM   #28
shew01
Senior Member
 
shew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA USA
Posts: 1,905
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
?????? No.

Pretty much all condensers except ours have the mounting bracket/flange attached to the condenser body. Bolt the condenser to the firewall [ using the coil bracket]. Take the little wire coming out of the end of the condenser and let it dangle until needed. When needed just attach it to the coil terminal as in the diagram. The condenser is mounted in parallel with the points. It doesn't make much difference where its mounted as long as it ends up being in parallel.

So, you’re talking about using a modern condenser on this configuration? I didn’t catch that in the thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 11:33 AM   #29
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
So, you’re talking about using a modern condenser on this configuration? I didn’t catch that in the thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 11:44 AM   #30
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 5,011
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Model A wiring is different than that shown in the links that duke 36 posted.
__________________
If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!.
Got my education out behind the barn!
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 01:02 PM   #31
duke36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Coil mounting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
Model A wiring is different than that shown in the links that duke 36 posted.
You are correct. The Condenser mounting in the neg. grnd. diagram appears similar to photo in post 24 for stock A wiring.
duke36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 AM.