R10 Overdrive Issue

[40cpe]

I gave you bad info to google the hill holder, All the references are to a hydraulic valve. I clearly remember Studebaker having a tab on the clutch pedal to activate the hill holder switch. My Dad only had Studebakers with overdrive.

On my '57 Ford with OD I installed a manual switch to engage/didengage the OD at will. Approaching a stop on a hill while the OD was engaged would prevent it from rolling backwards. I'm confident that yours is working correctly.

[rotorwrench]

The hill holder was related to the braking system to hold a pressure check valve by means of a clutch linkage.

The one way clutch in the overdrive allows for freewheeling at low speed but only in one direction of rotation. This allows the car to coast during low speed when the engine rpm is less than the output shaft speed so the overdrive sun gear can rotate freely after it disengages (the sun gear rotates the opposite direction of the output shaft so it has to disengage the rest of the transmission through the freewheeling clutch. In operation the sun gear is locked and the transmission turns the planet cage to effect the overdrive of the pinion driven ring gear.

These transmissions don't act the same way on the bench as they do in the vehicle with all the different rotational forces acting on them. With the overdrive disengaged, you should be able to turn the input shaft by hand and see the output shaft rotate. When you manually engage the overdrive pawl on the bench, you would have to simulate the rotational force of the car pushing back on the output shaft to even get it to fully engage (the sun gear has to rotate backwards to open the slot on the blocker ring). You would then have to rotate the input to overpower the torque of the output. It might take more rotational torque than you can apply by hand force alone.

If you have it assembled correctly, it should work just fine.

[fredv]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Rotorwrench.
Well, I finished the assembly of the trans this morning and put it back on the car this afternoon, took the car for a drive and .... it works just fine!

I drove the car in 2nd gear, the car freewheels, the test lamp burns at approximately 45km/h (my odometer is in Km/h), I left the foot off the gas pedal, and the trans shift into 2nd OD.
I try to keep the 2nd gear until 55-60 Km/h, then left the foot off, the trans shift into 2nd OD, then put the trans in 3rd and I think it should be 3rd OD.
I tried the kickdown, mash the pedal to the floor and the trans shift into direct drive, same thing when using secong gear.
Anyway, I drove the car for 20 Km only, but everything seems to work fine.
I used my good used solenoid, so now I have a NOS solenoid in stock!
It's great to feel the trans automatically shifting into OD!

Regarding lubricant, only GL5 80W90 was available at the shop in my place, I used this kind of trans oil in Ford trans without OD.
Rotorwrench advised me to use GL4 or motor oil SAE50, but what kind of motor oil, as most of motor oil seems to contain additives?

Anyway, I will drive the car for a longer ride tomorrow.
I would like to thank all of you for your replies, and especially 40cpe, Rotorwrench and Cecil for their kind support.

[40cpe]

congratulations! Now enjoy it.

[rotorwrench]

Straight grade SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil does have additives but mostly anti-foaming and corrosion protection. The modern motor oils don't have much of the zink phosphate stuff (ZDDP) and I don't think that would be a problem even at the levels they had before 1992. Any name brand you can find should be OK.

Have fun
Kerby, aka rotorwrench

[Planojc]

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So what was the final conclusion on how to avoid this type of problem on a rebuild? It looks like you should never rotate gears with the solenoid removed.

[Drbrown]

Re OD lubricant I may be confused and perhaps because the OD installation in my car is different from the unit being discussed in this thread.

I have an R10 Borg-Warner OD installed in drive tube about 8 inches forward of the differential. To fill the OD, an old-timer B-W mechanic told me to remove the solenoid and fill plug then fill the unit with 140W gear oil until it came out the fill plug hole (which I have been doing).

(In this arrangement, the bearing and seal in the front end of the B-W OD unit supplements/replaces the standard Ford bearing and seal normally found mid-way in the drive tube, and also provides a shaft bearing and seal adjacent to the front of the differential)

So interpreting this thread, I'm thinking that perhaps using a lower viscosity lubricant in an OD is okay when the OD is attached to the transmission (?)

PS: Type GL3/4 140W gear oil as avail from NAPA.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Straight grade SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil does have additives but mostly anti-foaming and corrosion protection. The modern motor oils don't have much of the zink phosphate stuff (ZDDP) and I don't think that would be a problem even at the levels they had before 1992. Any name brand you can find should be OK.

Have fun
Kerby, aka rotorwrench

So what will be the better choice, transmission oil GL5 80w90, or motor oil SAE50?
Any inconvenience to swap from trans oil GL5 80w90 to motor oil SAE50?
I had fun this morning during 50Km, after adjustment of the kickdown switch, everything works fine, that's great!

[fredv]

Originally Posted by Planojc

So what was the final conclusion on how to avoid this type of problem on a rebuild? It looks like you should never rotate gears with the solenoid removed.

Well, I still don't know how the control plate and blocker ring could have rotate during assembly, as when the pawl and the plate are in place, there is not enought clearance between the pawl and the adapter to allow the pawl to withdraw from its normal position between the lugs of the blocker ring

[rotorwrench]

GL-5 hypoid gear lube has an extreme pressure additive that eats into the wear faces and deposits a conversion coat that adds extra pressure capability to those surfaces. These additives have sulphur, phosphorous, boron, and sometimes chlorine compounds that can get acidic under high temperatures. The problem is it has a tendency to rapidly deteriorate any yellow metals like brass, phosphor bronze, or other copper based alloys. It also affects the surfaces of the freewheeling unit rollers and drum that could cause slippage of the one way clutch. All of the instructions I have ever read about the Borg Warner overdrives mention not to use hypoid lubricants with extreme pressure additives.

Some of the newer additives have less acidity but it is hard to tell just what is in there by looking at the package. The makers of these products don't advertise what they put in there since it is proprietary to their brand.

[Cecil/WV]

Boy! It is good to hear that it is working. Now, enjoy driving it.

[scooder]

Nice car, simca vadette? Does it have the V8 60 init?
Martin.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by scooder

Nice car, simca vadette? Does it have the V8 60 init?
Martin.

Yes, Ford France Vedette Versailles and then Simca Vedette Versailles, as Simca purchased Ford France in November 1954. Only around 1,000 of these cars were produced under Ford brand, but originally, it's a French Ford.
Engine is based on the V8 60 flathead but none of the parts are common with the original American engine.
I have 2 of these cars, one 56 sedan and one 56 hardtop coupe (this is the one I have adapted the overdrive transmission).
I will open a thread on French Ford-Simca cars of these years if some of you are interested.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

GL-5 hypoid gear lube has an extreme pressure additive that eats into the wear faces and deposits a conversion coat that adds extra pressure capability to those surfaces. These additives have sulphur, phosphorous, boron, and sometimes chlorine compounds that can get acidic under high temperatures. The problem is it has a tendency to rapidly deteriorate any yellow metals like brass, phosphor bronze, or other copper based alloys. It also affects the surfaces of the freewheeling unit rollers and drum that could cause slippage of the one way clutch. All of the instructions I have ever read about the Borg Warner overdrives mention not to use hypoid lubricants with extreme pressure additives.

Some of the newer additives have less acidity but it is hard to tell just what is in there by looking at the package. The makers of these products don't advertise what they put in there since it is proprietary to their brand.

The Borg Warner manual says indeed that under non circumstances should hypoid transmission oil be used in the overdrive, but in Ford Manual, it says that transmission oil should be used
What type of lubricant are you using?
What do you think about motor oil?
As my OD is now working fine, I don't want to ruin it with improper oil.
Thanks very much.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by fredv

Yes, Ford France Vedette Versailles and then Simca Vedette Versailles, as Simca purchased Ford France in November 1954. Only around 1,000 of these cars were produced under Ford brand, but originally, it's a French Ford.
Engine is based on the V8 60 flathead but none of the parts are common with the original American engine.
I have 2 of these cars, one 56 sedan and one 56 hardtop coupe (this is the one I have adapted the overdrive transmission).
I will open a thread on French Ford Simca cars on these years of some of you are interested.

I'd be interested, I saw one in Malta when I was a boy, wanted one ever since. Later happened upon one in a scrap yard. To far gone, the little V8 was still bolted in but someone already had a deposit on it, so didn't get that.
I'm in England, so one-day I'd love to flick over the channel and find me one. Got to many cars at this time, so maybe later.
Only seen sedan ones, love to see and hear mote about you hardtop coupe please.
Martin.

[Planojc]

Somewhere I read that All Overdrives use 80-90w weight oil. Do NOT use synthetic oil.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by Planojc

Somewhere I read that All Overdrives use 80-90w weight oil. Do NOT use synthetic oil.

What do you mean "weight oil"?

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by fredv

The Borg Warner manual says indeed that under non circumstances should hypoid transmission oil be used in the overdrive, but in Ford Manual, it says that transmission oil should be used
What type of lubricant are you using?
What do you think about motor oil?
As my OD is now working fine, I don't want to ruin it with improper oil.
Thanks very much.

In the 1940s/50s GL-3 mild EP lubricant was available that had natural EP additive and may have been animal (fatty acid) or lead based. When GL-4 specification was released, it had a lesser content of the EP additive used in GL-5 and is considered safe for yellow metals but I don't know how safe for the freewheeling clutch. I wouldn't be afraid to use GL-4 type.

I use aircraft engine oil (Aeroshell 100W) since I work in the aviation trade. It is 100 grade, SAE 50 ashless dispersant oil. I have to give you warning about aircraft oils for this purpose. Some are available that have Tricresyl Phosphate or TCP and you DO NOT want this type. Shell markets this oil in the USA as AeroShell 100W plus (+) but I don't know how they market this oil in France. You can use straight mineral type oil that is used for engine break in or an ashless dispersant oil but don't use any with the Lycoming additive TCP in there since it will make the freewheeling clutch slip. Regular automotive SAE 40 or 50 motor oil is generally 80 grade but would work fine in an overdrive if you can find some.

"Weight" is a term used or abused for viscosity index here in the USA but is not an accurate description of an SAE grade.

[fredv]

This is well noted, thanks very much for this very useful information.

[fredv]

I found this GL4 80W90 transmission oil in another shop, I think it will fit:



I drove the car for 180 Km now with no issues, everything works fine, but I will drain the trans and fill it with this GL4.