Drive Train mystery

[Neighbor A]

Greetings

I am not an owner or Model A fan, but my neighbor is. He has asked me to post his unique drive train problem here, since I told him similar forums for Ford Trucks (FTE) have been an invaluable source advice and encouragement to me. I've attached a lengthy document describing his steps, and having edited it for flow and clarity, removing the last names of people I'm not acquainted with. Please forgive the crowded text in the attachment, as I was at a loss as to how to get it all in under the forum limits. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and consider my neighbor's problem.

All the Best

Neighbor A

[Jacksonlll]

The first write up did not say you took the diff apart, but the second one said you did and everything looked good. Sure sounds like it is in the diff.

[Neighbor A]

I believe he has disassembled the differential from what I saw in his garage. The whole drive train back of the engine is off the car.

[Bob C]

I read it a couple of times and I don't see where the rear axle was disassembled,
maybe I missed it.

Bob

[Mitch//pa]

The first thing I would have checked before tear down would have been to see if the speedometer was moving. If not its forward of the speedo drive,,,,If so it from there back...

Exploratory surgery can be tough sometimes like pulling straws

[John]

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I had a similar problem that proceeded to be quite difficult to find. At first I thought it was axle keys, then pinion teeth or key and finally I found the answer after completely disassembling the differential and putting a large wrench to each axle. Please see the link: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/reprorearaxle.htm for the problem. Hint: it is a reproduction hall of shame part on Vince Falter's site...

Good luck,

John

[CW (senior)]

I'm the person with the "drive train mystery". Like "Neighbor A" stated, I have checked everything from the crankshaft flange back to the rear wheels. I also checked the crankshaft to make certain it was not broke at the flange. But I do like some of the "out of the box thinking" like: speedometer and axle shafts welded in lieu of forged. Excellent thoughts. I will say this that the only thing that we found broken in half was the bearing sleeve in the torque tube. I am starting to put the drive line back together and being very cautious looking for anything that might have cause the problem.

[Hicktick]

I bet if you give your location ,., somebody lives close and wouldn't mind helping you and neighbor ,., That's just the way these Guys are .,

[Tom Wesenberg]

Which bearing sleeve was broke in half? The front roller bearing sleeve is factory split in a V shape so it can be compressed and installed.

[CW (senior)]

Your right Tom, however, not split in two pieces. Snyder part #A-4655 is one piece, not two half's. Thanks for your feedback. My location is not important to anyone that knows Model A's as well as the experts working with me now.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Neighbor A

.....I've attached a lengthy document describing his steps, ....

Thought I'd see if the OP's attachment could be printed as a post without having to reopen it. Turns out it can:

This is/was my concern and Model A problem on Tuesday, June23rd, returning from Lake Niagara. My wife and I were traveling with 3 additional Model A's from our MARC Region "NorthCoast A's" of Ohio.
Chain of events:
1. At first it started out to be a slight surge each time I started out in first gear from a traffic light.
2. At one time during our return trip to the Skyline Inn we stopped at a winery/restaurant for lunch. When I pulled into the lot, I stopped, shifted into first gear and had no forward motion. My car was on a slight decline so I depressed the clutch, the car started rolling forward, then released the clutch, and the car started moving forward into the parking lot. I tried it again several times in the parking lot and could not repeat the problem.
3. Once we had left the winery and proceeded back to the hotel, each time I stopped for a traffic light and started up again I heard a loud clunk and surge out in first gear. This noise became excessively louder as another NorthCoast A's member traveling approximately 20 yards behind us also witnessed the noise.
4. Each time I stopped and started out in first gear the clunk and surge became excessively worse as my wife and I both thought the bottom end was coming out.
5. Three of us eventually returned to the Skyline Inn, where we were staying, and we dropped off our wives.
6. The three of us then traveled to the Gale Centre for various reasons. One to attend a judging meeting, another to view the cars and swap meet, and myself to meet with the repair team, (Phillip, Ross, and the team), to determine what was going on with my Model A.
7. At first all the repair team members were busy working on other cars, so I started working on my car. I proceeded to check the following for loose fasteners:
a. engine mounts
b. torque tube fasteners
c. transmission including the pressure plate fasteners thru the inspection opening and checked each fastener with a socket & ratchet to make certain they were tight.
d. I drove the car unto the curb to get better access to all fasteners below the body and engine
8. Eventually Ross became free and helped diagnosing the problem, including many other attendees either watching or offering support.
9. Ross had me back off the travel of the clutch arm as it was adjusted too close to the throw out bearing. I backed the arm off a turn & a half.
10. Once adjusted, I took it for a ride in the parking lot. I started out by driving several feet, stopping and starting back up in first gear. I did this several times until I got about 100 yards from the repair area when I no longer could move the car. Fortunately, five men in the parking lot, reviewing cars, where very helpful and pushed myself and my car back to the repair area.
11. Others tried to get the car to move in first, second, or third gear and failed.
12. Phillip W. and others came to my aid. We explained the problem and concern and proceeded with additional test and check procedures.
13. The rear of the car was lifted with a floor jack and jack stands were put under the frame for support.
14. At first it was determined I had too much oil in the transmission, and the clutch was slipping, so the oil level was lowered to an acceptable level and tried. No change.
15. Then it was determined the possibly a rear axle key was sheered and the left rear wheel and drum were pulled. I purchased two new keys from the swap meet and one was installed.
16. After the drum was reinstalled, one of my NorthCoast A's members got into the car, started, and shifted it into gear. No response.
17. However, while Phillip was holding the left axle shaft preventing it from turning while in first gear, we witnessed the right rear wheel not moving forward except only a slight wobble in and out.
18. At this time, it was determined, witnessed, and agreed that the problem was in the rear differential and it must be removed to repair.
19. At this point the car was reassembled, taken off the jack stands, parked, and locked up for the rest of the week.
20. Friday morning, June 26th, CAA came with a flatbed truck and took my car over the border into the USA where yet another member of the NorthCoast A's was awaiting our arrival to haul my car back to my home in Berea, Ohio.

21. On Saturday, June 27th, myself and another member (Ron B.) of the NorthCoast A's started working on my model A to repair the suspected failed differential.

23. On Monday, June 29th, Ron B. and myself removed the universal joint, transmission, clutch assembly, and flywheel. Washed all parts of grease and oil, inspected, and determined nothing failed or at least was not obvious. The clutch disc was dry, without oil or grease on faces as was originally expected and hardly worn as it was installed new in 2011. The clutch also was new in 2011. The engine was professionally rebuilt and reassembled by Dwayne Roach in 2011.

Please note that I was not the only person that witnessed the failure of the vehicle moving forward once in first gear.
Now, I am at a standstill as I will not reassemble the drive train into the car until I find a cause for the original failure of the drive train.
Also, I would like to thank all the MARC members that were involved with helping or just being there for support. It was truly appreciated.

I am looking for any suggestions or ideas as to what could have caused the failure.
From: Philip W
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Motionless @ MARC 2015 National Meet

Hi,
You did all you could to use the process of elimination to narrow down the possible cause of your rear end failure. Reading your story was fascinating in that
your disassembly , of the differential found nothing that pointed out the cause. Obviously the transmission may be the problem cause that's the only item
that stands between a rotating clutch assembly and the differential. Take that apart and tell us if any of the needle bearings are damaged. (might clean out any
debris that got mixed in during the adding of the "extra" oil.) Clean out the casting and see what you find.
You stated that you disassembled the differential to clean and inspect the gears & bearings. Did you use a straight edge to check the right axle for any bends?
(that right rear wheel had a visible wobble to it, so is it the wheel rim or the axle that's not straight?)
Did you check the pinion gear to see if it was loose on the drive shaft? (Hold the drive end and try turning the gear itself). The spider gears, were they set
right in the carrier? How did the ring gear look?
Since we sprayed varsol, into the clutch plate area, I suggest the flywheel/clutch assembly be disassembled to be be cleaned/washed and dried of all
petroleum products and residue. (My suggestion right/wrong?) - Use some sandpaper to rough up the friction plate a bit, just to take the shine off the surfaces.
I hope you find the cause, because your situation is a unique conundrum if ever I saw one. You might want to post this story on Ford Barn and see what the
"experts" have to say.
Good Luck,
Philip W

[CW (senior)]

Wonderful ! How did you do that so I can add the follow-up notes as to what has transpired since June 23rd.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Hicktick

I bet if you give your location ,., somebody lives close and wouldn't mind helping you and neighbor ,., That's just the way these Guys are .,

Originally Posted by Neighbor A attachment

...20. ... my home in Berea, Ohio....

Asked and answered

[CW (senior)]

Where I live or where the car is, is not important. What is important is "does anybody have any idea what may be the problem"? I am willing to put in print all that has been checked and already performed on the car with no issue found. However, being that I am a new member to fordbarn and am not sure how to insert my email notes concerning this problem, then I can only assume that there must be another web-site that can help.
Now, how do I close this concern as I did not open it myself.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by CW (senior)

Where I live or where the car is, is not important. What is important is "does anybody have any idea what may be the problem"? I am willing to put in print all that has been checked and already performed on the car with no issue found. However, being that I am a new member to fordbarn and am not sure how to insert my email notes concerning this problem, then I can only assume that there must be another web-site that can help.
Now, how do I close this concern as I did not open it myself.

Snippy aren't we! You location and the car location is important if you want the best help such as a visit from members here to assist in person.

As for your ".. then I can only assume that there must be another web-site that can help." Then do so! Go somewhere else. But let me tell you there is NO other place then here to get the best people with the most experience with model A's.

You're problem has received help here but not being in front of it and seeing the car first hand it can take time.

[Bruce Adams]

What MIKE V SAID ! I hope our efforts exceed your expectations. I am sorry that all those volunteer mechanics and helpers in Canada and Ohio have been unable to solve your problem.
HOWEVER..
Is there play at the rear hub where slop might prevent a good contact with the axle key? There are shims that can tighten loose hubs for $1 apiece.
It appears to me you have isolated the problem to something aft of the drive shaft and investigated the components therein.
Have you put the rear wheels up on jacks and the car in gear to listen for noises? Holding each wheel with the car in gear at idle might also reveal telltale noises. I wish I was more knowledgeable, but you say you have isolated it to the back three feet of the car so I wish you good luck isolating and eliminating the problem.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by CW (senior)

...am not sure how to insert my email notes concerning this problem...

It's just a simple "copy & paste".

But - - - If you'd rather, --- nevermind!

[Mitch//pa]

You tore down every piece of the drive train and have not found the reason a for no engagement to rear wheels. From the trans to the tires for actual movement there are only so many things that can cause a no movement condition ie splines, shafts, gears. This problem should have been very apparent on your disassembly inspection of all the driveline components. I suggest you need a more knowledgable person to help you locate the issue. If that is not an option reassemble everything with a new clutch assy
Keep us posted

[larrys40]

I agree wit Mitch. All of these problems are solvable with a logical path troubleshooting/disassembly if required of various components to locate and fix the problem

It IS solvable with experience and proper methodology . I would encourage you to secure an experienced A mechanic to repair the problem . Some of us out here including myself do work like this . I would encourage you to find someone in your area. You have had some replies .

Best of luck
Larry Shepard

[CW (senior)]

Any response is always appreciated. Thank you.