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Old 11-12-2017, 10:24 AM   #1
Al 29Tudor
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Default Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Good morning,
Does anyone know the diameter of the bore in the axle that carries the king pins?
My axle has both the bores for the king pins warn out and the pins are loose in the axle. I think they can be re-bushed and sized for the king pins like they should be.
I've tried to find a good axle but the ones I've seen are like pretzels.
The reamer for the pins is .814 so probably .815-.817 will work.
Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Al
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:20 AM   #2
Dave in MD
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Al,
Ford print number A3010C notes .812 to .814" plus or minus 1/32".
Hunter Fanney rebushed his front axle and might respond with the details on how he had his done.
Dave
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:23 AM   #3
wrndln
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Dave,
Are you sure about the "plus or minus 1/32". 1/32" is about .031 of an inch, which is a lot. I agree with the .812 figure.
Rusty Nelson
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #4
Dave in MD
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Rusty,
There is something on the print that is very tough to read that I think is the + - sign followed by "x 45 c t sunk. I think the x 45 c t sunk is the chamfer at both the top and bottom.
Dave
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:59 AM   #5
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Gents,
Good stuff - .812, with a 1/32 x 45 degree CHamfer top and bottom sounds right.
Normally in the title box there will be a tolerance on three place decimals.
Maybe + or _ .005 ?
Thanks Dave and Rusty
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:11 PM   #6
George Miller
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al 29Tudor View Post
Gents,
Good stuff - .812, with a 1/32 x 45 degree CHamfer top and bottom sounds right.
Normally in the title box there will be a tolerance on three place decimals.
Maybe + or _ .005 ?
Thanks Dave and Rusty
More like -.0005
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:38 PM   #7
denniskliesen
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

I'd consider reaming with a .812", and if the pin doesn't go in by hand with a bit of effort, no hammers, Run a pas through with a hone until you get there. I doubt much if any honing would be necessary anyway.
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Old 11-12-2017, 02:02 PM   #8
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Right George - .0005
Thanks
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

I don't think there is enough "meat" around the king pin eye to allow for bushing. That's why they stretch in the first place. I wouldn't do it but I have shrunk the eye, then reamed it back to size.
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Old 11-12-2017, 07:05 PM   #10
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Axles are common every car had one.

Look for one with good holes and has not been heated to remove the perches.

Never heat the axle it makes allows it to bend MUCH easier.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:19 AM   #11
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Kevin,
I have looked for a good axle at swap meets, here on the barn and local leads but have not found a good one.
Also I don't know how to determine if an axle has been heated if it's been repainted.
I did find a couple of bent ones and one with the surface for the radius rod all chewed up.
If you know of a good one available please let me know how to get it.
I like your advice but not as easy as it sounds.
Thanks
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

call Steve at Berts model a ford in Denver 800-321-1931 he has lots of good used parts.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Les Andrews Mechanics Handbook Vol#1, p.1-212 states that if your pin is .810", ... Replace it. Now that's only .002" smaller than stock .812", That should give you an idea, ... Absolutly no slop at all.

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Old 11-13-2017, 02:46 PM   #14
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I don't think there is enough "meat" around the king pin eye to allow for bushing. That's why they stretch in the first place. I wouldn't do it but I have shrunk the eye, then reamed it back to size.
Aynchro909,
You are right!
I just returned from a machine shop and he said sometimes you can shrink the hole and re-bore it to the correct size.
However this hole looks like someone removed the king pins with a torch, (before I bought it) and the hole has pockets in it. He has a lot of model A experience and advised against it.
Thanks,
Al
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

I think your putting out a lot of miss information in regards to heating axles. It's done everyday. It's been done on axles since their inception. This can be seen on the Traditional Hot Rods all the time. Just walk through the parking lot of the Lone Star Roundup in Austin, Texas in April and you'll get an idea of how many dropped axles that are out their. How do you think the axle guys drop their axles? They use heat. I don't see people complaining on the HAMB about their axles that were dropped.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
Axles are common every car had one.

Look for one with good holes and has not been heated to remove the perches.

Never heat the axle it makes allows it to bend MUCH easier.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:51 AM   #16
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickupman View Post
I think your putting out a lot of miss information in regards to heating axles. It's done everyday. It's been done on axles since their inception. This can be seen on the Traditional Hot Rods all the time. Just walk through the parking lot of the Lone Star Roundup in Austin, Texas in April and you'll get an idea of how many dropped axles that are out their. How do you think the axle guys drop their axles? They use heat. I don't see people complaining on the HAMB about their axles that were dropped.
A lot of wrong things are done everyday, that does not make it right.

The fact is the axles are special metal that does not bend easy. You heat it and it bends like butter. Over the years the original ones take on a bend at the perch hole as would make sense. But that is after a severe beating.

I have straightened axles and I have seen first hand the difference in how the axles bend. When you feel how much easier it is to bend the metal you might become a believer.

As for the dropped axles.
Well I have found in the last 45 years of being in the hobby that most guys are Fn clueless on the mechanicals on their cars.
They put them together and half the crap does not work right to begin with and then it breaks and they do not bother to fix it.
So you are just making assumptions when you state no one complains about their axles. I know from experience a good chunk of the guys would not know of the axle was bent. Often there are more severe issues with the car that overshadow the axle issues. I also know guys that know their cars have problems and do not feel they are enough of a problem for the 50 miles a year to worry about fixing them.

You just do not know if there is a real problem or not. You just have never heard of any and really no one is looking very hard. Lets be honest how many guys would even know how to check their axles or even know how to set them up right in the first place?

FWIW, During a discussion under the same exact subject years ago. That is I made my assertion that a heated axle is a weak axle. I asked the question when someone brought up the same exact question.

How many guys who actually drive their dropped axles cars any distance have check their alignment?

As I expected, almost one did. So no one knows if they have a bent axle or not. Well except for the 2 guys who have been in rodding for years emailed me and said yes they axles do bend easy and no one ever checks them. They just did not want to get in the discussion.

So let us go back to the simple fact, a heated Ford axle is MUCH MUCH weaker then one that has not been heated. Period end of discussion unless you have data to prove my data wrong.

Properly restoring a car is not cheap or easy. Today people seem to have lost the local network of finding parts. There were 4 million A's built each with a front axle so there are lots out there. You can use Bert's excellent reputation and pay a bit more for the parts or you can take the time to learn and network with local guys and find a good axle. But please stop putting me down for telling you facts you do not want to hear.

I want my car to run right. I have often found NOS Ford parts often at repro prices. I have found used parts with almost no wear. I paid the money to get the right stuff and I spent a lot of time learning how to find good parts.
Properly restoring a car the drives like factory is not easy, fast or cheap. I am NOT going for a show points car either.
If you want to do it right you have to get off you a$$ and learn a lot and talk to a lot of people.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:37 AM   #17
Pickupman
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

A heated axle does not bend like butter. That's a false statement! I could go on but it's not worth arguing on the internet. There is a lot of misinformation out there. My point has been proven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
A lot of wrong things are done everyday, that does not make it right.

The fact is the axles are special metal that does not bend easy. You heat it and it bends like butter. Over the years the original ones take on a bend at the perch hole as would make sense. But that is after a severe beating.

I have straightened axles and I have seen first hand the difference in how the axles bend. When you feel how much easier it is to bend the metal you might become a believer.

As for the dropped axles.
Well I have found in the last 45 years of being in the hobby that most guys are Fn clueless on the mechanicals on their cars.
They put them together and half the crap does not work right to begin with and then it breaks and they do not bother to fix it.
So you are just making assumptions when you state no one complains about their axles. I know from experience a good chunk of the guys would not know of the axle was bent. Often there are more severe issues with the car that overshadow the axle issues. I also know guys that know their cars have problems and do not feel they are enough of a problem for the 50 miles a year to worry about fixing them.

You just do not know if there is a real problem or not. You just have never heard of any and really no one is looking very hard. Lets be honest how many guys would even know how to check their axles or even know how to set them up right in the first place?

FWIW, During a discussion under the same exact subject years ago. That is I made my assertion that a heated axle is a weak axle. I asked the question when someone brought up the same exact question.

How many guys who actually drive their dropped axles cars any distance have check their alignment?

As I expected, almost one did. So no one knows if they have a bent axle or not. Well except for the 2 guys who have been in rodding for years emailed me and said yes they axles do bend easy and no one ever checks them. They just did not want to get in the discussion.

So let us go back to the simple fact, a heated Ford axle is MUCH MUCH weaker then one that has not been heated. Period end of discussion unless you have data to prove my data wrong.

Properly restoring a car is not cheap or easy. Today people seem to have lost the local network of finding parts. There were 4 million A's built each with a front axle so there are lots out there. You can use Bert's excellent reputation and pay a bit more for the parts or you can take the time to learn and network with local guys and find a good axle. But please stop putting me down for telling you facts you do not want to hear.

I want my car to run right. I have often found NOS Ford parts often at repro prices. I have found used parts with almost no wear. I paid the money to get the right stuff and I spent a lot of time learning how to find good parts.
Properly restoring a car the drives like factory is not easy, fast or cheap. I am NOT going for a show points car either.
If you want to do it right you have to get off you a$$ and learn a lot and talk to a lot of people.
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:19 AM   #18
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickupman View Post
A heated axle does not bend like butter. That's a false statement! I could go on but it's not worth arguing on the internet. There is a lot of misinformation out there. My point has been proven.

Yes, very true. Kevin brings up some valid hypothetical points however real world experience outweighs hypothetical in my book. Yes, there were many original axles that were dropped and some failed however the reason was not due to heating, but was due to the axle being stretched (to make the dropped section) which caused the web to weaken. Many dropping companies in the day compensated the deep-dropped axles by "filling" the beam with weld to re-strengthen the area. Those went many miles without bending or breaking.

As for repairing axle ends that are loose, I won't say my way is the best way --or the most proper way, ...but what we have found is the problem is with the lower hole being stretched outward. It really is not that difficult to repair this using our method, and if you are uncomfortable doing it this way, then find a replacement axle. I have a mandrel that I machined that clamps into the 0.875 collet and is machined to the size of the Spindle Bolt. The mandrel is hand placed into the axle hole and the knee on the mill is raised until the axle can be clamped into the vice. Then the quill is raised and lowered, and the axle position in the vise is adjusted until the mandrel freely raises and lowers. Use common machine set-up sense here, and set the mandrel to rub on the axle beam side (-since this will be the side of least wear). Now remove the mandrel.

Next, use a torch and heat the outermost edges of the hole until they turn blue and then cool with water causing the axle hole bore to shrink. Use the spindle bolt to test the progress as a go/no-go gauge beginning with shrinking the bottom hole first. Remember, the metal only needs to be hot enough to make steam when quenched, and does not need to be cherry red. Once the end of the axle hole has been shrunk, then set up a boring head and bore thru the axle hole to make the hole round again. Use your spindle bolt to size the hole in the axle.


On a side note here, this method has been used successfully on other marques of vehicles too when replacement King Pins are unavailable. If the wear on the pin is slight (.0.001-0.002 +/-) then the spindle bolt (King Pin) is mounted between centers on the lathe and ground concentric with a tool post grinder first to establish the size to fit the axle to.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:31 PM   #19
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

After straightening a couple of hundred Model T, A, and B's using heat on some, I have seen no difference.

But, there is using heat, and then there is really using heat.

Herm.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:28 PM   #20
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Bore diameter in Axle for King Pin

Yes people are driving with these axles for a long time.

How many check these axles after using them regularly to see if they had bent or not?

Interesting when I asked that exact question years ago on this same topic I got will no, no one had ever checked their axles to know if they were still straight.
So we have NO actionable evidence to say that a heated axle can hold its shape when driven some reasonable amount. By actionable evidence we would need a reasonable sample of axles tested after a known amount of driving.

There are a lot of considerations that need to be included in the data.

I also did get one response those many years ago. By mail one guy told me he had a dropped axle on his car and he did check it after driving for a while and it was bent. That was only one data point and not actionable.

So what I know:
A heated axle is much easier to bend.
Many guys have dropped axles and heated to remove the perch axles on cars and driving ok.
Almost no one checks their axles so long as nothing drastic happens. So we do not have a good idea of how much it actually bends.

So we do not really know if or how much the heated axle bends.
Most of these cars are not driven much so any effects are not likely to be noticed.

What are the effects of a bent axle on these cars?
Some tire wear? Some pulling? Are you going to notice that?

I am clearly aware of all the issues. It is likely I am way more aware of the state of different types of cars then many. I like to ask a lot of questions and I am not afraid to hear the answers when I can verify the information. It is called critical thinking, it seems to be lacking these days.

I suggest that you do some experiments with axles and see how much easier the heated then cooled axle bends in comparison to an untouched original axle for yourself.

I stand by my comments that an axle that has been heated past the plastic point and cooled (I believe I am using the correct term but I could be wrong) will move like butter when compared to an axles that has never been heated.
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