New to Model A

[Chiefguy]

Hello. I was advised to get on this forum and introduce myself.
I am retired and just bought an old Model A Ford or Sedan.
Problem.....engine is frozen. I have been soaking pistons with mystery oil and ATF. No luck.
The car is otherwise nice.
Ideas?

[Licensed to kill]

A friend of mine was given a flathead that was seized. he soaked the cylinders with penetrating oil for over a week with no luck. He then put vinegar in the cylinders and the motor turned over by hand (with resistance) the next day.

[JOHN CT]

How long have you been soaking the cylinders? Are you trying the crank or starter to spin it over? ATF is a good solution but i never mixed it with Marvel mystery oil. Trying mixing the ATF with acetone and get a socket and a breaker bar on the crank pulley nut. That helps to get better movement.
I’ve freed stuck motors that way. Just have patients.

[copgib]

it sounds like it is now a waiting game. Let the chemicals do there job. It will free up! Hugh

[1930artdeco]

Welcome to the Barn! How about some Pics?


Mike

[Chiefguy]

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Thank you for all the interest to help!
I will continue to pour ATF into the one cylinder that it takes over night to drain out of. The other three seem to drain down in 15 mins or so.
I will try conifer next week...lol
Thanks guys

I pulled the car today...third gear...left skid marks both rear wheels.

[WHN]

Give it some time. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Also check other things that could be holding things. Is your Starter stuck, also take off valve cover and check if valves and lifters are free to move. Another place to use MMO.

Keep us informed. Enjoy.

[Chiefguy]

Yes, been soaking a week. Been jumping on hand crank, and pull/dragged her today. No luck.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Thank you for all the interest to help!
I will continue to pour ATF into the one cylinder that it takes over night to drain out of. The other three seem to drain down in 15 mins or so.
I will try conifer next week...lol
Thanks guys

I pulled the car today...third gear...left skid marks both rear wheels.

I would be worried about bending rods and breaking gears if I pulled it to get it turn over. Take it apart and fix it right.

Charlie Stephens

[Chiefguy]

Thanks friend. Going to try your path next. I do have time....I think. Lol

[Steve Plucker]

Is the clutch froze up on the flywheel?

Pluck

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I would be worried about bending rods and breaking gears if I pulled it to get it turn over. Take it apart and fix it right.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie’s right. Don’t take a chance on breaking other things that aren’t now broken.

As I mention, get some (a lot) penetrating oil on your valves and lifters, cam and bearings. Valve cover should come off now.

Is there rust on cylinder walls?

Does car roll freely when in neutral.

How long has it been since the engine was last started?

Picture of engine would help.

[Chiefguy]

I had a spinal cord trama five years ago. Big jobs are out of my capabilities these days

But thank you for my friend

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by WHN

Charlie’s right. Don’t take a chance on breaking other things that aren’t now broken.

As I mention, get some (a lot) penetrating oil on your valves and lifters, cam and bearings. Valve cover should come off now.

Is there rust on cylinder walls?

Does car roll freely when in neutral.

How long has it been since the engine was last started?

Picture of engine would help.

The car does roll freely. I:ll try to get pics soon. Car is 45 miles away, so don't get there everyday.
I was told engine ran 3 years ago.
There is black crud on pistons, but couldn't tell if rust.
When I pulled plugs, looked like she had run last couple days.
Having trouble finding how to post car pics

[Chiefguy]

Did my pictures go thru.
I am lost at this

[1930artdeco]

Yep you have a nice late 30 Briggs Fordoor.


Mike

[Chiefguy]

Like your sedan Mike

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Did my pictures go thru.
I am lost at this

Got the pictures.

Take some of engine, might help in understanding condition of engine. Left and right side, plus top.

Car looks like your going to have fun. We just have to get it running.

[Chiefguy]

Clutch and trans feel good

[Chiefguy]

Going to sign off for now. Back later...or tomorrow.
Thanks guys

[Synchro909]

From what you say, I think only one cylinder is holding it. Have you tried rocking the car back and forth while in top gear? Also, make sure the clutch plate is not stuck to the flywheel. You can check that by peering through the inspection cover on the flywheel housing.
Once you have it free, and running, listen to it carefully. Very often, when an engine has been stuck for a while, the rings leave a groove in the bore and will catch on it every time they go past it. You may be able to feel it withthe crank handle or hear it with the motor running. If that has happened, a rebore and new pistons is in order.
Persistence is omnipotent!

[Licensed to kill]

If it was running 3 years ago it shouldn't be THAT stuck unless it was left out in the weather with the spark plugs out or something and the car looks very nice so that won't be it. I would check that the starter isn't stuck like WHN suggested. I've had the starter stick on mine and you can't budge the crank for love or money. Here is a great video by fellow barner Jack that describes the issue and how to fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD4AYmMu1HU

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill

If it was running 3 years ago it shouldn't be THAT stuck unless it was left out in the weather with the spark plugs out or something and the car looks very nice so that won't be it. I would check that the starter isn't stuck like WHN suggested. I've had the starter stick on mine and you can't budge the crank for love or money. Here is a great video by fellow barner Jack that describes the issue and how to fix it.

Good point!

[Wick]

Glad you made it on to fordbarn!
Wick

[midgetracer]

I have a tool made out of an old starter plate and an old bendix. It is like one the suppliers sell. I will lend it to you for the cost of shipping. It bolts in the starter opening and has freed up a lot of engines for me. you just turn the exposed bolt with a wrench and the engine should turn over quite easily. Just send me an email at [email protected] and I will send it to you.

[Chiefguy]

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I'll have to see that video. Sounds great help.

[Chiefguy]

Anyone on here from Venango County ?
Franklin, PA ?

[Chiefguy]

I'll get email off to you right away! Thanks Rod.

[Chiefguy]

Hey there Wick! Yes, I made it.glad I did.

[Chiefguy]

Any idea how to find viewing hole ?

[Chiefguy]

I'll look for viewing ... Hole? Where is it located? Not sure I would know what I was looking at it did find it.
Sorry, haven't been much of a gear head in my years.

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

I'll have to see that video. Sounds great help.

Sorry, I forgot to include the link for the video I added it but here it is again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD4AYmMu1HU sorry.

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill

If it was running 3 years ago it shouldn't be THAT stuck unless it was left out in the weather with the spark plugs out or something and the car looks very nice so that won't be it. I would check that the starter isn't stuck like WHN suggested. I've had the starter stick on mine and you can't budge the crank for love or money. Here is a great video by fellow barner Jack that describes the issue and how to fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD4AYmMu1HU

I watched video. Thank you Sir. Food for thought for sure.

[tuneman]

Chief guy

You have mail, I sent you a private message. Should be located on this page upper right side under private messages. I also have a 1930 Briggs fourdoor

[Chiefguy]

Here are pictures of engine. I am removing the starter. When it comes out, what do I expect with starter rod? Does it just come out of starter?

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Here are pictures of engine. I am removing the starter. When it comes out, what do I expect with starter rod? Does it just come out of starter?

No pictures?

[midgetracer]

unscrew the starter rod just above the starter switch. the switch can come out with the starter.

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Welcome to the Barn! How about some Pics?


Mike

For the life of me I can't figure how to upload and send pictures here!

[Chiefguy]

For the life of me I can't figure how to upload pictures. I did it once! Lol

[Chiefguy]

Ok, I had to stop working on it today. I get worn out to easy.

[1930artdeco]

PM Sent


Mike

[Chiefguy]

I finally have Pictures of my Sedan 1930 Briggs Model A
This right ? LOL

OK, many have asked for pics that they might be able to help me with this stuck engine.
I am still digging into this machine, and I find she is very much original...wood?
Bad seat cover over originals. Look for the wood behind the rear seat. and around window. You guys know better than I, so let me know if what I am seeing is true.

[Chiefguy]

will all be able to see these pics?

[Chiefguy]

sweet looking car

[1930artdeco]

OK they showed up.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

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I can see them. The picture of the motor and motor/head paint may indicate a head gasket leak in the cylinder 2-3 area. If yes and water made it to valves/pistons and then sat, they may be rusted to the block. Check motor oil for water.


Looks like there is/mav have been an issue at the Water pump, Bad Water pump Gasket, or packing Nut leak, or upper hose neck /head gasket leak.


If unable to get motor freed up, most likely the head will have to be pulled.

[1930artdeco]

Looks like a standard Fordoor that has been uh.....'upgraded'. I can't tell about the wood but if you poke at it with an awl and it doesn't go in very far then consider the wood good. However, the whole body is made of wood, roof, top, doors sill etc. Do the doors sag at all? Do they close nice and tight? You have a "fairly rare" car as many Fordoors got turned into Townsedans so there are not many stock Fordoors left.


But the Body looks nice and straight, dent free and solid. So, outside of the engine I think you have a winner. Don't forget to check over the brakes and front suspension.


Mike

[Chiefguy]

Wilco thanks Mike
David

[Chiefguy]

Got ya...thanks. Something more for me to watch.
More knowledge is good.
David

[Chiefguy]

The car rolls free when out of gear, yes.
Now I have removed three bolts holding start r to bell.
Starter does not want to come lose.

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

unscrew the starter rod just above the starter switch. the switch can come out with the starter.

Ok, starter switch rod off/unsrewed, and 3 bolts out. Starter won't move.

[Chiefguy]

Seller said engine was coated for storage. It's like a bad black paint that is peeling off. No idea yet how to remove it. It's covering everything.

[oldforder]

If the starter is unbolted and it won't come off/out, I am thinking that you have something really tight /jammed onto the starter. If it was the starter keeping the engine from turning, you have really gotten it jammed with trying to turn it over. Maybe somehow try to turn the engine backwards some. Put in 3rd gear, and push backward.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Seller said engine was coated for storage. It's like a bad black paint that is peeling off. No idea yet how to remove it. It's covering everything.

Oooops, Motor Paint looked dark green to me in the pictures.


How long was it in Storage, and where was it stored (inside-outside, on concrete-gravel-dirt, out building or heated or attached garage)?

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Oooops, Motor Paint looked dark green to me in the pictures.


How long was it in Storage, and where was it stored (inside-outside, on concrete-gravel-dirt, out building or heated or attached garage)?

The green is under the black paint. From what I saw, the car was on concrete floor in heated basement garage. But Had just been shipped from Maine. Was always inside for three years storage.Sent
Best I know.

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Seller said engine was coated for storage. It's like a bad black paint that is peeling off. No idea yet how to remove it. It's covering everything.

A good power wash with hot water will likely clean it off licketty split. Just be careful not to take the paint underneath.

[Mike Peters]

Sounds like your starter bendix is jammed into the flywheel. That happened to me on a trip a hundred miles from home. Unbolted the starter, and couldn't budge it by hand. In desperation, I jammed the heel of my shoe on the starter body as hard as I could and it came free. You may need some judicious use of a pry bar to work that starter body loose. Your engine will never turn over until you pull the starter. good luck. mike

[Mike Peters]

Another thought... You did take out all THREE starter bolts. 3/8" with a 9/16" heads?

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by Mike Peters

Another thought... You did take out all THREE starter bolts. 3/8" with a 9/16" heads?

Lol, yep..sounds like something I might forget...lol
Got all three.
Thank you

[1930deluxe]

Welcome to the Ford barn, this is a very good web site for us that are working on our Model A.

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Looks like a standard Fordoor that has been uh.....'upgraded'. I can't tell about the wood but if you poke at it with an awl and it doesn't go in very far then consider the wood good. However, the whole body is made of wood, roof, top, doors sill etc. Do the doors sag at all? Do they close nice and tight? You have a "fairly rare" car as many Fordoors got turned into Townsedans so there are not many stock Fordoors left.


But the Body looks nice and straight, dent free and solid. So, outside of the engine I think you have a winner. Don't forget to check over the brakes and front suspension.


Mike

Mike, rereading posts here. To answer one of you questions, yes, dorrs close very well . They are tight, no sag, and line up perfectly.

[fuzes45]

Try mixing Acetone with Atf 50/50 and soak, or Kroil oil.


Bob

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

The green is under the black paint. From what I saw, the car was on concrete floor in heated basement garage. But Had just been shipped from Maine. Was always inside for three years storage.Sent
Best I know.

Thanks, knowing the background and history of the car is useful in providing advice. Sounds like it may have been sitting for a long time, perhaps in less than optimal storage conditions. Perhaps sitting because of this issue.

[Wick]

If the starter is still stuck... grab the starter with a strap wrench and turn the housing. The bendix will snap back into place and the starter will fall out.

[Chiefguy]

Hey guys! I got the starter out and engine looks ok!
Bad news, I lost all contacts and names !
Rob need you to contact.
I'll be working on getting her running after holiday.

[Chiefguy]

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Used a crow bar and hammer, jently....lol

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Used a crow bar and hammer, jently....lol

Is the motor free now?

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Is the motor free now?

Motor is free! Looks good.

[Chiefguy]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Mike, rereading posts here. To answer one of you questions, yes, dorrs close very well . They are tight, no sag, and line up perfectly.

Checked brakes. They seem like new on my truck...lol
Body does have hint of lead near bottom of coal and on two fenders. Steel fenders.

[Chiefguy]

Lead bottom of cowl

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Chiefguy

Hey guys! I got the starter out and engine looks ok!

So it was just the starter that was hanging up then?.

[WHN]

Now that the engine is free, change the oil before you try to start it. Open plug and let it drain overnight. See what comes out.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by WHN

Now that the engine is free, change the oil before you try to start it. Open plug and let it drain overnight. See what comes out.

Note the level on the dipstick 1st, and measure how much comes out. 1st time I drained, only got about 3 quarts, if I had known better would have known it was a clue that I had tons of goo in the bottom of the oil pan and should have dropped the oil pan and cleaned it out.


Another reason for changing the oil 1st is you may have contaminated oil due to pouring stuff into the pistons.

[Mike Peters]

David: So you bought a Model A with a stuck starter? I wonder if the seller knew that? Maybe he thought the engine was fatally seized? Some guys have all the luck!! Glad you got the starter out and the engine now turns freely.

I would definitely follow all the good advice from previous posts regarding changing oil, and thoroughly. Like they said, let it drain over night and see what you get. mike

[100IH]

When your ready to start the engine, crank it with the plugs out to remove most of the oil mixture used as a penetrant. A towel over the plug holes would be a good idea.

[tuneman]

Well did you get it to run?. If so how does it sound.