The Ford Barn

ALmotoman · 12-13-2018, 09:32 PM

Have been a member for many months, but have been lurking rather than posting. Recently my '48 Super Deluxe has been extremely hard to start, but it will usually, eventually start, and idle and run like a Swiss watch. Of late the engine has additionally started dying out at stop lights, and even while motoring down the road. When that happens, I pull over and it cranks right up. I'm currently running a Pertronics Ignitor electronic ignition with upgraded, modern plug wires and a stock coil. Today I received a Pertronics low resistance 0.6 ohm Flame-Thrower II coil that I plan to install as soon as the mounting bracket arrives. I think it makes sense to run the electronic ignition with the matching coil. A few things that I've done troubleshooting this problem are replaced the battery and solenoid, and rebuilt the starter, carburetor and fuel pump. If this new high power coil doesn't cure the ill, then I'm up the creek and out of ideas. I am obviously open to any and all comments, theories, idea, etcs. Of course I'm assuming that this is an ignition problem and not a fuel problem. These symptoms were present when I was running the stock dual points and doesn't seem to be as a result of going with the high tech ignition system. Thanks for listening.....love the forum.

paul2748 · 12-13-2018, 09:39 PM

Weak fuel pump? Based on what you said, it's probably not an ignition problem

mrtexas · 12-13-2018, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALmotoman

Have been a member for many months, but have been lurking rather than posting. Recently my '48 Super Deluxe has been extremely hard to start, but it will usually, eventually start, and idle and run like a Swiss watch. Of late the engine has additionally started dying out at stop lights, and even while motoring down the road. When that happens, I pull over and it cranks right up. I'm currently running a Pertronics Ignitor electronic ignition with upgraded, modern plug wires and a stock coil. Today I received a Pertronics low resistance 0.6 ohm Flame-Thrower II coil that I plan to install as soon as the mounting bracket arrives. I think it makes sense to run the electronic ignition with the matching coil. A few things that I've done troubleshooting this problem are replaced the battery and solenoid, and rebuilt the starter, carburetor and fuel pump. If this new high power coil doesn't cure the ill, then I'm up the creek and out of ideas. I am obviously open to any and all comments, theories, idea, etcs. Of course I'm assuming that this is an ignition problem and not a fuel problem. These symptoms were present when I was running the stock dual points and doesn't seem to be as a result of going with the high tech ignition system. Thanks for listening.....love the forum.

Umm, replacing a bunch of parts without knowing the cause of the problem is not troubleshooting, it is guessing. Hope you saved all the good parts you replaced.

Hard to start could be timing or fuel. Has the distributor been timed since converting to pertronics? Timing too retarded would cause hard start and overheating. Carb been rebuilt by an expert? Good flow of fuel while cranking? What coil resistance is recommended with your pertronics setup? You sure it is 0.6 ohms? Thought they needed 1.5 ohms. Both my flatheads are pertronics and start and run flawlessly. Crab distributors though. Timing can be roughly checked easily. Hold thumb on #1 spark plug hole and crank motor over until you get compression, then look in cylinder until top dead center. Then take off cap and see how close rotor is pointing to #1. Timing really should be done on a distributor machine.

svmsr1044 · 12-13-2018, 10:59 PM

Ground cable to firewall connection??

ALmotoman · 12-13-2018, 11:12 PM

Fuel pump was rebuilt with new parts. Piston rocker arm was out of position, locked up and bent, and that was replaced. I have taken the fuel line from pump to carb off and cranked the engine, and the pump will fill a jar. Also, the fuel in the carb float bowl remains full. Seems to me the engine is getting fuel.

tubman · 12-13-2018, 11:28 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

"90% of fuel system problems are caused by the ignition system, while 90% of ignition system problems are caused by the fuel system". As "mrtexas" says, try a little diagnosis of the problem before throwing parts at it; that only complicates the diagnosis procedure.

ALmotoman · 12-13-2018, 11:42 PM

Distributor has not been timed since converting to electronic ignition. Carb was not rebuild by an expert, just a hobbyist. Yes, good flow of fuel while cranking. Coil resistance as recommended by Pertronics is 0.6 ohm. Thanks for the tip to ballpark check the timing. I have spoken to Michael at Third Gen Automotive about having the timing checked on a distributor Sun machine.

ALmotoman · 12-13-2018, 11:43 PM

Ground cable to firewall connection worth checking again. Thanks.

ALmotoman · 12-13-2018, 11:45 PM

'Anything that makes you smile is GOD."

ALmotoman · 12-14-2018, 01:45 PM

'Umm, replacing a bunch of parts without knowing the cause of the problem is not troubleshooting, it is guessing. Hope you saved all the good parts you replaced.'

"90% of fuel system problems are caused by the ignition system, while 90% of ignition system problems are caused by the fuel system". As "mrtexas" says, try a little diagnosis of the problem before throwing parts at it; that only complicates the diagnosis procedure."

Whoa guys.....give me a break. I probably shouldn't have used the word "troubleshoot." Parts that I have replaced germane to my ignition (?), fuel (?) problem in the year and a half that I've owned the car are the things that I mentioned. Battery died, so I replaced it; solenoid died, so I replaced it (twice); starter died, so I had it rebuilt; carb power valve failed, so I rebuilt the carb while I was at it; fuel pump failed, so I rebuilt it; replaced the inline fuel filter, installed suppression core spark plug wires, etc. I plead guilty to replacing failed parts to keep the car running.

JSeery · 12-14-2018, 06:04 PM

"A few things that I've done troubleshooting this problem are replaced the battery and solenoid, and rebuilt the starter, carburetor and fuel pump. If this new high power coil doesn't cure the ill, then I'm up the creek and out of ideas. I am obviously open to any and all comments, theories, idea, etcs. Of course I'm assuming that this is an ignition problem and not a fuel problem."

Keep in mind that folks can only respond to what is posted and providing help over the internet without even being able to see the vehicle is not a simple one answer process. If you follow some of these post it can sometimes end up being something that was not included in the original post! It is a process, you know the vehicle and what has been or not been done to it and how it is behaving. All we have is what is posted. It normally gets worked out, but it takes a bit sometimes.

Ggmac · 12-14-2018, 06:18 PM

12 volt or 6 pos or neg earth , gas cap still vented ? How are you getting power to the Pertronix ? Body to frame grounded , and you may have mentioned this , is it the orig motor ?
Float level correct , what kind of needle ? Are you adding MMO ?

koates · 12-14-2018, 10:38 PM

Ignition switches on old Fords often give trouble due to wear of internal contacts. To prove a point just fit a little jumper wire across the switch terminals and go for a drive. Regards, Kevin.

rotorwrench · 12-15-2018, 09:19 AM

It's sad that they don't make decent replacements for the ignition systems. Most folks on the board use the original stuff as much as possible. When they work and work well, the stock system lasts for years and especially with upgrades like a rebuilt original coil. I'm not a fan of Pertronics stuff or suppression wires. They just don't seem to be any more reliable than the old stuff.

BUBBAS IGNITION · 12-15-2018, 10:30 AM

I would suggest using the Bosch blue coil ( assumining its 12 volt) #00012 or the Bosch # 00016 for six volt...

pm sent ..........

flatjack9 · 12-15-2018, 10:59 AM

I think replacing the coil makes sense.

Graeme / New Zealand · 12-15-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

I would suggest using the Bosch blue coil ( assumining its 12 volt) #00012 or the Bosch # 00016 for six volt...

pm sent ..........

Bubba does that 6v bosch coil have an inbuilt resistor?

thanks
GB

Ritzy1 · 12-16-2018, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

I would suggest using the Bosch blue coil ( assumining its 12 volt) #00012 or the Bosch # 00016 for six volt...

Jim, in past threads on this topic, you've suggested the NAPA IC12SB coil, which says it requires an external resistor. Their IC14SB has an internal resistor. Which is best to use with the Pertronix 1285LS 12 volt unit?

rotorwrench · 12-16-2018, 10:03 AM

By their nature, a coil is similar to a resistor. Both have wire windings and have a resistance value to them. The number of windings is what gives it the resistance factor on the primary side. There is no extra resistor inside a coil. Electronic ignitions require different specifications in the primary resistance than the battery ignition systems for the most part. If they recommend a specific primary resistance value of coil then that is the only one that will work well with that comopany's electronic module. To use the wrong coil would fry the electronic module in most cases.

ALmotoman · 12-26-2018, 09:30 PM

Out of town and away from the car over the holidays. Before leaving, I revisited the fuel pump and found the cap on the rocker that engages the piston broken into two pieces and supposedly impairing the fuel pump's operation. Replaced this part with a spare. No change to the hard starting problem. Installed a new, hotter Pertronics Flame Thrower II coil. No change to the hard starting problem. Will get back on this around Jan 7th.

12-13-2018, 09:39 PM	#2
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,981	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Weak fuel pump? Based on what you said, it's probably not an ignition problem __________________ 48 Ford Conv 56 Tbird 54 Ford Victoria

12-13-2018, 10:59 PM	#4
svmsr1044 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Ivyland, PA Posts: 116	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Ground cable to firewall connection??

12-13-2018, 11:12 PM	#5
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Fuel pump was rebuilt with new parts. Piston rocker arm was out of position, locked up and bent, and that was replaced. I have taken the fuel line from pump to carb off and cranked the engine, and the pump will fill a jar. Also, the fuel in the carb float bowl remains full. Seems to me the engine is getting fuel.

12-13-2018, 11:28 PM	#6
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,312	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) "90% of fuel system problems are caused by the ignition system, while 90% of ignition system problems are caused by the fuel system". As "mrtexas" says, try a little diagnosis of the problem before throwing parts at it; that only complicates the diagnosis procedure.

12-13-2018, 11:42 PM	#7
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Distributor has not been timed since converting to electronic ignition. Carb was not rebuild by an expert, just a hobbyist. Yes, good flow of fuel while cranking. Coil resistance as recommended by Pertronics is 0.6 ohm. Thanks for the tip to ballpark check the timing. I have spoken to Michael at Third Gen Automotive about having the timing checked on a distributor Sun machine.

12-13-2018, 09:32 PM	#1
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Have been a member for many months, but have been lurking rather than posting. Recently my '48 Super Deluxe has been extremely hard to start, but it will usually, eventually start, and idle and run like a Swiss watch. Of late the engine has additionally started dying out at stop lights, and even while motoring down the road. When that happens, I pull over and it cranks right up. I'm currently running a Pertronics Ignitor electronic ignition with upgraded, modern plug wires and a stock coil. Today I received a Pertronics low resistance 0.6 ohm Flame-Thrower II coil that I plan to install as soon as the mounting bracket arrives. I think it makes sense to run the electronic ignition with the matching coil. A few things that I've done troubleshooting this problem are replaced the battery and solenoid, and rebuilt the starter, carburetor and fuel pump. If this new high power coil doesn't cure the ill, then I'm up the creek and out of ideas. I am obviously open to any and all comments, theories, idea, etcs. Of course I'm assuming that this is an ignition problem and not a fuel problem. These symptoms were present when I was running the stock dual points and doesn't seem to be as a result of going with the high tech ignition system. Thanks for listening.....love the forum.

12-13-2018, 11:43 PM	#8
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Ground cable to firewall connection worth checking again. Thanks.

12-13-2018, 11:45 PM	#9
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes 'Anything that makes you smile is GOD."

12-14-2018, 01:45 PM	#10
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes 'Umm, replacing a bunch of parts without knowing the cause of the problem is not troubleshooting, it is guessing. Hope you saved all the good parts you replaced.' "90% of fuel system problems are caused by the ignition system, while 90% of ignition system problems are caused by the fuel system". As "mrtexas" says, try a little diagnosis of the problem before throwing parts at it; that only complicates the diagnosis procedure." Whoa guys.....give me a break. I probably shouldn't have used the word "troubleshoot." Parts that I have replaced germane to my ignition (?), fuel (?) problem in the year and a half that I've owned the car are the things that I mentioned. Battery died, so I replaced it; solenoid died, so I replaced it (twice); starter died, so I had it rebuilt; carb power valve failed, so I rebuilt the carb while I was at it; fuel pump failed, so I rebuilt it; replaced the inline fuel filter, installed suppression core spark plug wires, etc. I plead guilty to replacing failed parts to keep the car running.

12-14-2018, 06:04 PM	#11
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes "A few things that I've done troubleshooting this problem are replaced the battery and solenoid, and rebuilt the starter, carburetor and fuel pump. If this new high power coil doesn't cure the ill, then I'm up the creek and out of ideas. I am obviously open to any and all comments, theories, idea, etcs. Of course I'm assuming that this is an ignition problem and not a fuel problem." Keep in mind that folks can only respond to what is posted and providing help over the internet without even being able to see the vehicle is not a simple one answer process. If you follow some of these post it can sometimes end up being something that was not included in the original post! It is a process, you know the vehicle and what has been or not been done to it and how it is behaving. All we have is what is posted. It normally gets worked out, but it takes a bit sometimes.

12-14-2018, 06:18 PM	#12
Ggmac Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Lake worth Florida Posts: 1,095	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes 12 volt or 6 pos or neg earth , gas cap still vented ? How are you getting power to the Pertronix ? Body to frame grounded , and you may have mentioned this , is it the orig motor ? Float level correct , what kind of needle ? Are you adding MMO ?

12-14-2018, 10:38 PM	#13
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,079	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Ignition switches on old Fords often give trouble due to wear of internal contacts. To prove a point just fit a little jumper wire across the switch terminals and go for a drive. Regards, Kevin.

12-15-2018, 09:19 AM	#14
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes It's sad that they don't make decent replacements for the ignition systems. Most folks on the board use the original stuff as much as possible. When they work and work well, the stock system lasts for years and especially with upgrades like a rebuilt original coil. I'm not a fan of Pertronics stuff or suppression wires. They just don't seem to be any more reliable than the old stuff.

12-15-2018, 10:30 AM	#15
BUBBAS IGNITION Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: SPEEDWAY INDIANA Posts: 4,148	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes I would suggest using the Bosch blue coil ( assumining its 12 volt) #00012 or the Bosch # 00016 for six volt... pm sent .......... __________________ If it Makes Spark, we do it !!!! www.bubbasignition.com [email protected]

12-15-2018, 10:59 AM	#16
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes I think replacing the coil makes sense.

12-16-2018, 10:03 AM	#19
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes By their nature, a coil is similar to a resistor. Both have wire windings and have a resistance value to them. The number of windings is what gives it the resistance factor on the primary side. There is no extra resistor inside a coil. Electronic ignitions require different specifications in the primary resistance than the battery ignition systems for the most part. If they recommend a specific primary resistance value of coil then that is the only one that will work well with that comopany's electronic module. To use the wrong coil would fry the electronic module in most cases.

12-26-2018, 09:30 PM	#20
ALmotoman Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Fairhope, AL Posts: 28	Re: 1948 Super Deluxe Ignition (?) Woes Out of town and away from the car over the holidays. Before leaving, I revisited the fuel pump and found the cap on the rocker that engages the piston broken into two pieces and supposedly impairing the fuel pump's operation. Replaced this part with a spare. No change to the hard starting problem. Installed a new, hotter Pertronics Flame Thrower II coil. No change to the hard starting problem. Will get back on this around Jan 7th.