2 door phaeton project, how much is it worth

[Digger]

I am going to look at the 2 door Phaeton for sale, not sure of the year. Straight body but needs full restoration, any idea what it’s worth? No top no interior, assume no engine of any use.

Actufrom the photo can’t tell if it’s a 2 door or 4 door, but will find out after a four hour drive today.

[flatford39]

You sure it's not a roadster. Appears to be 31.

[Digger]

No not sure, this is the only info I have, and was told by the fact was a Phaeton. They also have a fordor similar condition and a restored 30 Coupe.

[Roadster62]

Lots of them came up from South America, they tend to be driven to death. All wood sub frame in the body. I worked on one two years ago, you really have to love them to get things right. Bob

[Digger]

How can I tell USA from South America?

[Marshall V. Daut]

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It looks like a four-door Standard Phaeton to me. The two-door Deluxe Phaeton's doors are VERY wide, much wider than the passenger's door seen in the photo. There appears to be the narrow divider section between the front and rear doors in your photo, which makes it a Standard Phaeton. Cowl lights were not standard on this body style, so someone has added them. Standard Phaetons in 1931 were not plentiful at 4,076 produced. Even if this is not a Deluxe Phaeton, it's a low production body style for that year, hence desirable for collecting, besides the added attraction of it being a convertible Model A.
Without the top or interior - and assuming nothing else major is missing or damaged - I would guess the value as it sits to be around $7,500-8,000. You'll have a few thousand in a new top assembly, top material, seats springs and upholstery, which will bring it up to at least $13,000 invested. The tires are undoubtedly no good = $1,000+ for five tires and inner tubes. And this estimate assumes the mechanical aspects can be freshened up without complete rebuilds. But one has to always ask himself: why was this car parked away if it still functioned? There's usually something seriously wrong with "barn" finds because that's why they were parked away in the first place.
Good luck with the purchase!
Marshall,
1928 and 1931 Phaetons, 1931 Deluxe Phaeton

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Digger

How can I tell USA from South America?

Telling USA from South America isn't hard even if people from both speak funny!!
What does it matter where it's from? If it's the style you want, go for it.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Most South American Model A's are right hand drive, meaning the steering wheel is on the "wrong side" of the car. They are almost always WAY over-used and beaten to h*ll, with many major and minor alterations performed to keep them on the road in the past 90 years. Lots of phaetons were originally sent down that way for some reason. They were quite popular as taxi cabs well into the end of the last century. A guy named Sam Sherman from NYC used to run ads in "Hemmings Motor News" and the "Restorer" in the 1960's and 1970's, selling South American phaetons w/photos, sometimes four phaetons at a time. As I recall, the catch was that YOU had to ship them to the States and pay all the charges and duties. I imagine some phaeton owners on this site have these South American phaetons in their possession that may or may not have been converted to left-hand drive.
If you come across a South American phaeton that is unrestored, you'll be able to recognize it for what it is: a very, VERY tired Model A that will take thousands and thousands of dollars and a great deal of hard work to breath life back into it. My neighbor two houses up has been working on repairing a S.A. 1930-1 Standard Phaeton body for the past seven years! It's looking like a car now, but boy, did he invest a lot of time and money - and frustration!
Marshall

[updraught]

I thought the wood sub frame was something they only did here? More wood in 1930 as the recession was really hitting and extra local content was called for.

I've only seen a truck load of bare chassis frames at a swap meet years ago from South America.

They had had a hard time, even by our standards. Big cracks and lots of bits welded on.

[Digger]

Just got back from my 9 hour road trip, photos attached. It is a two door Phaeton, they told me wood work done by an expert in the San Jose, Ca area many years ago. They are asking 17,500

They also had a 29 Graham Paige

[Synchro909]

If any barners are looking to convert a Model A from RHD (where the steering wheel is on the RIGHT side) to LHD and it has a 2 tooth steering box, I'll put my hand up for the steering column at least.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Great! "Glad to see it turned out to be a Deluxe Phaeton after all! The price is not out of line for such a desirable body style built only in 1930-31 in two-door form. In fact, it's a pretty darned good price, even missing the top assembly. I sold one of my 1931 Deluxe Phaetons three months ago for $22,500 and it isn't as nice as this one, although it does have a top assembly. If you don't buy it, someone else will - and soon!
Before you buy, though, make sure the body isn't a fiberglass repo that was sold a couple decades ago. I am not talking about the Glassic phaeton wannabe from the 1960's, which barely looked like a phaeton. Someone made a pretty good Deluxe Phaeton copy in fiberglass. Ask the owner to stick a magnet to the body, if you prefer not to make a nine hour return trip. If the magnet sticks, it's metal. If it falls off, the body is fiberglass, which DRASTICALLY affects the value of the car. Better to find out before you make the leap that the body is a fake. I sure hope not!
Marshall
Marshall

[Digger]

It is definitely a real metal Ford, that I checked

[KUDZUVIPER]

It appears that the top frame and wood are included, you will need to just need to get the canvas/top material. Door looks a little odd, it just might be the pix angle.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yes! The recently-posted photos show the wood top bows and maybe some of the metal top frame. That saved you a BUNCH of money! Is the special trunk rack also present with its METAL faux woodgrained slats? If so, SUPER WOW!!!
Marshall

[Digger]

Possibly there was a lot of stuff around.

They also have a 30 Coupe but asking double what it is worth, $15k

And a 57 T bird project 16k, frame/engine pic would not load

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

When "some" folks do a Barn Find, they're so NIEVE, they think with a battery & gas, they can drive it home---LOL & LOL
Bill Doubtful

[Digger]

Don’t forget the spark....

[Charlie Stephens]

Be sure to add up the pieces it will take to finish it and then compare the result to what you can buy a restored one for.

Charlie Stephens

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Hard totell with certainty from here but that door sure looks like a standard. Check the rear 1/4 the rear door could have been welded shut and blended in to the 1/4 panel

[Marshall V. Daut]

Nope, not a Standard Phaeton. The rear shot with the unique curve around the back where the top anchors and the valence between the rear fenders pretty well clinches this as a two-door phaeton. Both would be hard to fake convincingly. Is there a "tub" serving as the rear passenger's feet area? It should be a sunken pan made of metal with ribs. This allowed the rear seat to be placed lower than in the Standard Phaeton. A good, clear side view of the doors ought to seal the deal.
It's looking more and more like a legitimate Deluxe Phaeton to these eyes.
Marshall

[gustafson]

Beware. Irons not from a Deluxe, more like a Std.
Body is wracked, note huge gaps at windshield
Doors are shot, note turnbuckle
Another red flag is so many unfinished cars.
Overpriced. To restore a Deluxe properly requires a boatload of $$$$. If done on the cheap, it won't bring value

[Dave Slater]

From the photos attached it's a real Tudor phaeton and it was a right hand drive delivered car. Have a look at the front doors as they are framed in timber where as the USA delivered standard phaetons front doors were all steel. Also have a look at the belt molding at thr rear of the car as it goes around the rear tub - totally different from a standard 4 door phaeton. There should also be a body tag riveted to the cowl close to the glass petrol bowl and the body tag should read 159-xxxx. Without looking up thr records from Steve Pluckers book total production was around 7000 units. A very desirable body style with only about 250 left in the world. Dave. PS there are only 4 in Australia.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

If any barners are looking to convert a Model A from RHD (where the steering wheel is on the RIGHT side) to LHD and it has a 2 tooth steering box, I'll put my hand up for the steering column at least.

There should be one there in that pile of junk with a RHD column support.

[Will Ziegler in LI NY]

I would love to see more photos, but from what is shown, if I had the opportunity I would jump on it. 180A's are great looking cars.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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PHAETON defined, means WINDY & NOISY.
Bill Badhair

[dlshady]

Originally Posted by gustafson

Beware. Irons not from a Deluxe, more like a Std.
Body is wracked, note huge gaps at windshield
Doors are shot, note turnbuckle
Another red flag is so many unfinished cars.
Overpriced. To restore a Deluxe properly requires a boatload of $$$$. If done on the cheap, it won't bring value

While that may actually be the case with this particular car, it's not necessarily a given. It's common practice to add them during a restoration to help prevent door sag in the future.

Originally Posted by Dave Slater

From the photos attached it's a real Tudor phaeton and it was a right hand drive delivered car. Have a look at the front doors as they are framed in timber where as the USA delivered standard phaetons front doors were all steel. Also have a look at the belt molding at thr rear of the car as it goes around the rear tub - totally different from a standard 4 door phaeton. There should also be a body tag riveted to the cowl close to the glass petrol bowl and the body tag should read 159-xxxx. Without looking up thr records from Steve Pluckers book total production was around 7000 units. A very desirable body style with only about 250 left in the world. Dave. PS there are only 4 in Australia.

Not sure how that urban legend got started but it's not actually true. Below is a picture of a late 31 180A that I know for a fact was US made. It's one of four that my dad has done the wood in, all of which were US built cars and all of which had wood framed doors.

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Nope, not a Standard Phaeton. The rear shot with the unique curve around the back where the top anchors and the valence between the rear fenders pretty well clinches this as a two-door phaeton. Both would be hard to fake convincingly. Is there a "tub" serving as the rear passenger's feet area? It should be a sunken pan made of metal with ribs. This allowed the rear seat to be placed lower than in the Standard Phaeton. A good, clear side view of the doors ought to seal the deal.
It's looking more and more like a legitimate Deluxe Phaeton to these eyes.
Marshall

Here's a picture of the rear floorpan area that it should have.

[Digger]

Thanks everyone for chiming in on this car. I appreciate it.

[ronn]

as a reference-one of these sold at auction in about the same condition a year ago spring from the estate of a local A guy. it needed everything, but had the top, was from south America and had horrible frame sag. It sold for 12500. at auction.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Both of my Deluxe Phaetons have wooden-framed doors. The Deluxe Phaeton body was built around wooden framing, unlike the USA Standard Phaetons with their steel structure. One of the most difficult challenges restoring a Deluxe Phaeton is to get the doors to open and close properly, plus adjusting the turnbuckle to get the doors tweaked so that they fit the contour of the body and sit in their openings squarely. You'd think with only two doors, this would be an easy task. Nope. It's all that "give" in the wood and shimming that is necessary, plus the very long and heavy doors exerting unwanted geometric stresses on the door hinges and cowl. TONS O' FUN, believe me!
Marshall

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

My 7, "EARLY AMERICAN" PANELED hall doors, were made of pressed, wet, MASONITE, with raised WOODGRAIN, EVEN !!
Bill Ihungthemmyself

[Keith True]

What caught me by surprise was the 29 Graham Paige picture.I've only seen one other,and it is sitting in my garage right now.The one I just got running has a rear mount spare though,not a side mount.It has four wheel contracting band hydraulic brakes,The one here has new linings ,and the new material kind of stands out.The first thing people say when they see this one is,how does that stop with the brakes out in the open?

[Digger]

Off topic, but here is the 47 Chrysler, most likely the LONGEST car I have ever seen... wonder how many tons it weighs!

[Bob-A]

The windshield looks like a standard to me and not a deluxe!?


Bob-A

[gustafson]

totally agree, that windshield is painted and is too tall
buyer beware
the irons are DEF NOT deluxe
there are known to be attempts at fake deluxes

[Will Ziegler in LI NY]

Digger if you have any specific questions about this car, let me know. I can take photos of my 180A for comparison.

-Will

[Digger]

Thanks Will, and all, I may just throw an offer their way, scoop it up with whatever is included. I will keep you all POSTED,

3 more GP photos

[updraught]

Wood frame looks like a work of art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJe3sSo86x8

[Dave Slater]

Work of art? I call it termite delight!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Someone mentioned "THE GIFT OF GAB"----GAB, defined, = UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT!
Bill Blunt

[updraught]

No worries ... I'm short and sweet.

[Hoogah]

Here’s a photo from the RG&JS, if it helps for comparison.

[Digger]

Anyone know of comps for prices of a 31 two door Phaeton? Asking prices or actual sold cars?

[gustafson]

Raw or restored?

For a restorer, it will cost an arm and a leg to restore it, so your starting outlay needs to be below 10K. Of course you can buy a fully restored slant, tudor, coupe etc. for about 15K or less. This is not an expensive line of cars, with the exception of but a few models. Anyone who can afford a fully restored one is gonna have enough cash to get into a higher end marque of cars. Model As were built for the masses, just like the T

For a buyer of a restored 2-dr phaeton, there will be none, because it will be too expensive

The true value of any car, or anything else for that matter, is simply what someone is willing to pay

sorry to burst your bubble

[Digger]

Comps of any sort or condition would be great.

[Hoogah]

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Originally Posted by gustafson

Raw or restored?

For a restorer, it will cost an arm and a leg to restore it, so your starting outlay needs to be below 10K. Of course you can buy a fully restored slant, tudor, coupe etc. for about 15K or less. This is not an expensive line of cars, with the exception of but a few models. Anyone who can afford a fully restored one is gonna have enough cash to get into a higher end marque of cars. Model As were built for the masses, just like the T

For a buyer of a restored 2-dr phaeton, there will be none, because it will be too expensive

The true value of any car, or anything else for that matter, is simply what someone is willing to pay

sorry to burst your bubble

Don’t forget that we humans are funny creatures. Often the heart rules the head. Most of us aren’t here to make a profit, but for the love of it.

[ronn]

comps you say?

15-20k unrestored if you can find one

done 40-60k depending what done means.......

this model doesnt exist and is extremely rare.

[Digger]

So I was able to buy the two door Phaeton for a collector friend of mine in Texas. It will be heading that way in about a month for a full restoration. I did a little more research, and it has its original engine, car was built in September of 1931. The family says they may have the body tag somewhere too and hopefully a little history.

After looking at photos on line of fully restored ones, they sure are a beautiful car.

[Dave Slater]

The new owner needs to join the 2 door phaeton club and get the newsletter devoted to the 2 door phaeton. One can get a download of all the previous newsletters via Email when he joins. Get in touch with Ross Milne in Canada. If you can't locate him send me a Email. [email protected]

[art ebeling]

I cant tell by the pictures if it has an indented firewall. Shouldn't a Sept 31 car have an indented firewall?

[ronn]

yes, it should have an indented firewall-but is it from south America?

[john charlton]

As a previous poster said it was RHD the cutout can still be seen in the cowl. If it is 1931 it was one of 143 built at Fords Buenos Aries plant in Argentina, 166 were built in 1930 .I have the same car also, all complete but in poor state. I think I am very lucky for indeed it is the Holy Grail !!! I really should make a start on it soon .

John in sunny Suffolk County England.

[ronn]

John,
in your neck of the woods, a right hand drive is a wonderful thing. Here in America, not so much. Most guys here prefer an original left hand drive, but considering the rarity of the body style..............

[Digger]

No concern to the new owner, he knows the difference and is thrilled, that is all that matters. He also has Early Ford V8s from South America.

[john charlton]

Hi Ronn , my son and I have 6 vehicles on the road running and driving . 3 are LHD and 3 are RHD (not converted) We would not convert LHD to RHD as no gain as nobody in UK
cares which side the steering wheel is on .LHD is easy to drive here as they are narrow with good visibility . In Europe RHD is disliked as there is a stigma attached as so many worn out cars have come in from South America, they mostly get converted.

John

[Digger]

So a few follow up questions on this model:

In 1931 did they make standard AND Deluxe two door Phaetons?

If so, how many of each, and how can you tell the difference?

Regarding left or right hand drive, was the firewall identical for all units, with solid metal where the steering column would go on both sides, and then the proper one was cut out based where it was made, leaving the other side in tact?

[Bob C]

All two doors were Deluxe, the four door was the Standard.


Bob

[ronn]

Well John,
Americans are pretty funny about which side the steering is on. I too own a RHD phaeton and love it!


But you know, we never adapted to soccer either!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob C

All two doors were Deluxe, the four door was the Standard.


Bob

Originally Posted by Digger

So a few follow up questions on this model:

In 1931 did they make standard AND Deluxe two door Phaetons?

If so, how many of each, and how can you tell the difference?

Regarding left or right hand drive, was the firewall identical for all units, with solid metal where the steering column would go on both sides, and then the proper one was cut out based where it was made, leaving the other side in tact?

It probably is easier to use Ford's bodystyle numbers for clarity. The 'Standard' Phaeton was actually termed the 35B whereas the Deluxe Phaeton was the 180A. Google will be your friend when you search, and then you will easily distinguish the difference between the two bodies.


The A-35328-C Dash Assy. (-no such thing as a firewall) was the same for all US manufactured Model-A and Model-AA bodies however they were different by part number for export models.

[john charlton]

Hi Ronn we never adapted to base ball . Here it is called "rounders" and played by school girls mainly , It is the same game with bases etc etc . the girl behind the batter doesnt wear a funny hat maybe the balls are softer. I love my RHD 28 phaeton too, English country lanes in the summer with no top cant be beat. My car has the small bore AF engine and the AF 4.55 rear end so trickles along in top gear at just above walking pace so you can enjoy the scenery !!!

John

[ronn]

Need to pull mine out and do some work to it to make it road-able. Engine runs like it has extra hp and never drove an A that was so peppy!


Brakes are xlnt too. now you got me going..............


guess I dont need an A400 after all.

[Digger]

Reason I am asking is I found another one, wondering if they put in a new firewall when they restored it, therefore how could I tell if it was originally for US or foreign, other than taking the doors apart?? Vin is a US made April engine.

[ronn]

you cant and so nobody knows, esp if the engine was replaced....

[Digger]

Well, thanks to a lot of Ford Barn information, the 2 door “Phaeton” turns out to be a cut up Tudor Sedan! Thanks Barners!!