Enamel Paint

[Domino]

Do acraylic enamels with a hardner contain isocyanates? How do they compare with modern SS and CC/BC paints? TIA

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Domino

Do acraylic enamels with a hardner contain isocyanates? How do they compare with modern SS and CC/BC paints? TIA

Yes!

The answer to your second is acrylic enamel uses a different type of resin than the Polyurethanes (S/S & BC/CC). The pigments in the enamels are of older technology and so they are not as pure. The synthetic pigments are a little crisper. The clear has the ability to provide more UV hold-out. The hardener allows the shell of the paint to be harder which makes both the ability to colorsand & buff easier, and also more resistant to minor scratches/etc.

[PetesPonies]

The isos are in the hardener. If you sprayed it without the hardener, no isos. But it would not be as resistant to acid rain, bird doodoo etc. It would stay "soft" a lot longer. But it is easier to spray for a beginner.

[pooch]

...

[PetesPonies]

When I first started spraying, 37 years ago, I sprayed several cars with acrylic enamel without hardener. It was optional. It flashed even faster than with hardener. When I say soft, I mean that you could push your finger nail in it for a long time after the car was painted. But as far as "drying" after the paint job, no problem. When I started using hardener, it took getting used to because of the longer flash. First cars shot with enamel was with synthetic enamel. No one used any hardener in that paint. Farm maCHINERY is sprayed with that by farmers all the time. So using AC without hardener is no worse than that. It just doesn't have the chemical curing and resistance that hardener and the isos provide.

[lindy williams]

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If you are a first time painter , that ability to color sand and buff the paint can make the difference between a good paint job and a poor job. I highly recommend the hardener and application of 3 coats of paint.

[PetesPonies]

in that vain, I would recommend lacquer.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

When I first started spraying, 37 years ago, I sprayed several cars with acrylic enamel without hardener. It was optional. It flashed even faster than with hardener. When I say soft, I mean that you could push your finger nail in it for a long time after the car was painted. But as far as "drying" after the paint job, no problem. When I started using hardener, it took getting used to because of the longer flash. First cars shot with enamel was with synthetic enamel. No one used any hardener in that paint. Farm maCHINERY is sprayed with that by farmers all the time. So using AC without hardener is no worse than that. It just doesn't have the chemical curing and resistance that hardener and the isos provide.

I disagree with that. The first enamel which cars were painted with was alkyd enamel which is oil based. That technology is still used on some low-end farm equipment and so this paint is still sold by retailers such as Tractor Supply, Home Depot, et/al.

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[tbirdtbird]

I'd avoid lacquer. It is reversible, meaning you can wipe it off with lacquer thinner even years later, and you can't shoot urethane products over it if you want to change your paint chemistry down the road. It will lift and bubble and blister the lacquer and make an awful mess. The lacquer would have to be totally removed. Even epoxy paints can lift lacquer. You can shoot alkyd enamel over lacquer, tho, but I don't advise it. Single stage urethane will give a better shine than was ever possible originally from the factory and is not hard to shoot. The trick is to get a really decent gun and crank up the pressure so that you get good atomization; this reduces the possibility of runs and sags. I shoot with 100 psi going to the gun and do not use a regulator. You have to move fast but you'll get a nice job

[PetesPonies]

Brent you are right, I meant the alkyd and is still used in the farm machinery today. But my point still stands.

[PetesPonies]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

I shoot with 100 psi going to the gun and do not use a regulator. You have to move fast but you'll get a nice job

Holy pressure Batman . . and you are giving spray painting suggestions? Talking about blowing paint gun technology right out of the park. I have no comment . . . . .other than I have sprayed some lacquer cars recently. They were Corvettes and lacquer was used because of the owners wanting their cars done exactly as they were from the factory. Therefore, many of the six figure Vettes you see out there have lacquer still on them.It is labor intensive to do it correctly, but for a Model A or similar, it most certainly will work. It's not what I spray as a choice, I prefer BC/CC. But lets remember what the initial point of this post was. The poster wants to stay away from isos. I commend him for that, too many people are putting themselves at risk. If you do not want to buy a fresh air system, then stay away from the isos, IMO. AE without hardener or lacquer are your best choices. I think the ignorance of AE without hardener causes some people to view this option incorrectly. And it is just that, an option; no more no less.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Domino

Do acraylic enamels with a hardner contain isocyanates? How do they compare with modern SS and CC/BC paints? TIA

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Holy pressure Batman . . and you are giving spray painting suggestions? Talking about blowing paint gun technology right out of the park. I have no comment . . . . .other than I have sprayed some lacquer cars recently. They were Corvettes and lacquer was used because of the owners wanting their cars done exactly as they were from the factory. Therefore, many of the six figure Vettes you see out there have lacquer still on them.It is labor intensive to do it correctly, but for a Model A or similar, it most certainly will work. It's not what I spray as a choice, I prefer BC/CC. But lets remember what the initial point of this post was. The poster wants to stay away from isos. I commend him for that, too many people are putting themselves at risk. If you do not want to buy a fresh air system, then stay away from the isos, IMO. AE without hardener or lacquer are your best choices. I think the ignorance of AE without hardener causes some people to view this option incorrectly. And it is just that, an option; no more no less.

Is that really what he asked??



My personal opinion is people perform certain tasks yet sometimes maybe they really should not be performing those tasks. Plating, Babbitt, etc. all come to mind. Joe is asking about iso's now but what does/did the primers have that is being used? Spraying a catalyzed finish coat over a non-catalyzed surfacer is a recipe for disaster IMO. If a 2k substrate was used without regard for iso protection, maybe it is a little late??

The 2nd side of this entire discussion is it may be smart for Joe (--or anyone) to seek out a professional shop just to spray the finish coat. While some will argue that there is not that much difference between a good quality spray gun (< $1,000) vs. a cheapie ($100-200) gun I know there is based on experience. Added to that is the ability for the professional painter to do a better job because they have experience and if the painter needs just a 'splash' of some product to make the job that much nicer it is likely they would have that in their inventory whereas the backyard painter will try to make due without optimum materials. So what does a pro-applied paint job cost vs. a backyard-applied lacquer job? What is good quality Lacquer paint selling for a gallon? How many coats you gonna apply and how much you gonna "shave off" trying to match the finish of a good quality, pro-sprayed urethane job?? Maybe MAACO is an option to spray just the finih coat?

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[PetesPonies]

Yes Brent, I would say that is what he asked. Otherwise from a DIYer view, why would you need to know?
And as far as primer go, I use a sandable epoxy. So I do not work with isos at the primer level. I do all my blocking with this epoxy. If I have something that needs more, I will use a polyester ( messy to clean up ) primer. So I never use isos at the primer stage.
And for DIYers out there, I would follow my lead. No reason to work with isos at the primer stage if you do not want to do it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

One additional thought for hobbists to ponder. Whether they use an epoxy or a polyester product, anything that is activated with a Methyl Ethyl Keytone Peroxide is listed as a skin and airborne respiratory hazard in our MSDS sheets. Therefore if they want to err on the side of safety, then consider using a lacquer (--or water based) primer followed by a non-2K top-coat.



BTW, where did you buy your Lacquer paint (brand?), ...and what is the cost per gallon??

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[Domino]

Right you are. I am trying to avoid the ISO problem. The first car I painted I used dupont Chromabase B/C and wore a 1/2 mask respirator - that was ten years ago. I did notice a bit of tighness in the chest which passed after a couple of hours. Since then I have learned of the health risk assoicated with modern paints. I would like to use a SS urathane (concept) but suspect its either buying a fresh air respirator (Hobbyaire or Breathe-cool), hiring it out, or perhaps using a paint (hence the emanel l question) without ISOs. Some have assured me that a full-face mask with a combination P100/organic vapor filter would be aequate for the once every 3-4 years painter. I got a lot of gratification out of painting the town sedan and would like to paint the rumble seat coupe or tudor to use in the daughter's wedding in march. Thanks fior all the information.

[Keith True]

I keep seeing all the stuff about ISO's,and always wonder just what is so different from the ones I started painting with in the mid 70's,and the ones in the paint today.Back then I used the mask the reps told me to,which was a charcoal mask.If I was painting a crane or a lot of trailers,I would buy the paint in a drum from Magnet paints.The hardener would come in gallon cans.Mostly then though I used Dupont,(Centari)and a lot of Martin Senour,(Sherwin Williams)I didn't use much Ditzler because the paint had no meat in it.The pigments would pull away from the edges and the metal would show through.They all had warnings about the isocyanates,but they all said the same thing.Wear a tight fitting charcoal mask.Are the ISO's used now worse? Or,do they just know more about them now? I keep seeing stories about how you will die if you paint a car without a fresh air mask.I do have a fresh air setup now,as I paint most everything now with single stage.I first painted with Imron in 1975.The owner of the shop walked through the room,he gagged,turned red,coughed and choked for an hour.He had never been exposed to it before.He was never able to work with the stuff.I should have died 35 years ago.Paint,chemical fumes,asbestos,(my dad installed asbestos siding)sprays on the farm,spores from old bones,who knows what else.I used to haul old bones for fertilizer,some of the drivers came down with breathing ailments,but I never did.Turns out it was spores from the old bones.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Keith, I'm not sure I have the correct answer regarding the differences between isocyanates from 35 years ago and now however I would suspect it has something to do with the same things as gasoline from back then vs. now. Gas today is much more harmful due to the additives used now. Even lacquer thinner would likely fall into that category.

While we are on the topic, I do know of several pro restorers who have succumbed to nervous system failures that were attributed to those painters not wearing masks. I also think that where this becomes more of an issue is the type of ventilation the painter is in (like what would be found in a professional shop). In a good flowing spray booth, skin absorption is less of a potential risk over someone spraying in their backyard. I would say the same applies to using a charcoal filter in a booth vs. in someone's backyard.

So this comes down to what is someone's health actually worth in $$? In restoration work there are tools that are almost mandatory (a set of wrenches, a torch, a garage, etc.) and then there are other items that such as a compressor, a lathe, etc., etc. that are necessary to do a good job. If a restorer does not have those tools, then they really need access to those. Maybe a good quality booth and resp. gear. should be included in that list. So someone needs to decide whether they need to build/buy the proper "tools" first so they can successfully do their restoration, --or budget to outsource that task no different than paying someone to pour babbitt, recore your radiator, replate your britework, etc.

[tbirdtbird]

Ppl can soak in all the info here and then paint however they please, of course. That is what is nice about a forum, sharing the many ways of doing things. I didn't tell anyone how to paint, I just told you how I paint, having learned from a high-end body man of 35 yrs, and having painted more than 12 cars and trucks myself. You want to keep orange peel to a minimum? Crank the pressure way up. Minimal peel means minimal color sanding. You need to get into a tight spot? pinch the hose off a little with your other hand. A really tight spot? knock off the fan, back off on the volume adjustment, and pinch the hose. You can even back off on the air knob if you prefer for tight work. Always have a piece of cardboard propped up so you can check your spray pattern every so often. Hold the gun 6-8 inches away and keep it moving. And the quality of the gun makes all the difference, forget Harbor freight

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Ppl can soak in all the info here and then paint however they please, of course. That is what is nice about a forum, sharing the many ways of doing things. I didn't tell anyone how to paint, I just told you how I paint, having learned from a high-end body man of 35 yrs, and having painted more than 12 cars and trucks myself. You want to keep orange peel to a minimum? Crank the pressure way up. Minimal peel means minimal color sanding. You need to get into a tight spot? pinch the hose off a little with your other hand. A really tight spot? knock off the fan, back off on the volume adjustment, and pinch the hose. You can even back off on the air knob if you prefer for tight work. Always have a piece of cardboard propped up so you can check your spray pattern every so often. Hold the gun 6-8 inches away and keep it moving. And the quality of the gun makes all the difference, forget Harbor freight

Which spray gun do you like to use and which line of paint do you use? Also, what spray conditions (temps, air flow, type booth, etc.)??


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[Marvin/TN]

Spray painting at 100 PSI means you will be putting more paint in the air than on what ever you plan to paint and I have been a professional Auto Painter since June of 1966 so I have run a few gallons of paint through a paint gun. Still using the same paint guns I started with, just keep them clean and lubricated and they will last many years.

[PetesPonies]

Isos have been around since chemically cured paint has been around. And I'm not making light of it at all . . but how many of those painters from the 60s and 70s that used just a charcoal mask each day are still around? Or how many have respiratory conditions now? I know some. It was deadly then and is deadly now. Remember DuPont Imron? Tough stuff . . deadly Yellow urethane primers that were called " yellow death" were around back then as well. I can offer a few facts. First, there are more isocyanates in clear coats than in color coats. So a SS paint has less than clears do. That doesn't exactly make them safer, just a fact. And something that I think was missed that I mentioned earlier is that in a professional paint booth, ventilation is good. Therefore, less material is available for you to be exposed from. Don't discount this key fact. When you are in you make shift booth, it isn't the same as a pro booth. These well ventilated booths though, make idiots of many of the painters who use them and you see many painters just usng a charcoal mask. Don't copy them. And the last fact I'll mention here is EVERYONE is effected differently. You cannot know how you will be effected. Do you know someone that is in their 80s and smoked their entire life?? Does that mean it's safe? Or do you know many people who have had health problems from smoking?? Same thing here.

[Keith True]

I've always painted with whatever mask I was told to use at the time.I do believe though,that all of the rap sheets stated a supplied air mask was best.I have a little building I now rent out that was a body shop.My former tenant is a very good body man,and plays by the rules when it comes to the proper masks,room air,etc.He can no longer use any paints with ISO's in them.If he does do a job he has to stay home for two or three days after,just kind of weak and woozy.His doctor told him he had developed a buildup of the chemicals in his system,and he had to change careers.They kind of figured it was from his unprotected mixing times.I have never painted in a booth,as most of my paying work has been equipment,trucks,and trailers.Where dust usually wasn't an issue,I could usually keep my paint area almost smoke free.I've used up a lot of paint,but in my situation I bet I have had less exposure than a full time bodyman got then in a years time.I painted 23 dump trailers in the summer of 82.all for one company,and toward the end my prized DeVilbiss gun started acting up.I took it to a fellow here called the gun doctor.He wanted to know if I had been running sand through it.I had worn a round paint orfice into an oval shape.I had run two drums of Fruehauf silver aluminum acrylic enamel through it with hardener.

[PetesPonies]

Good info Keith.