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Old 05-05-2011, 09:43 AM   #1
Vic in E-TN
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Question Lion Speed Head

About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:24 AM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Hummm.........


Let me see if I can say this with a straight face. No seriously! Stop THAT!!

<gasp> OK, ... I guess it depends on what your goals are with the "Lyin' Head". If you want to impress someone who knows nothing about Model A's, then 'Go For It' and use it. If you want to make the front bumper on your 'A' sit lower to the ground due to weight of that head, then use it. Maybe yours will not have any casting issues either.

You will likely find that an across the board comparison will find the all-around drivability issues better with something other than the "Lyin' Head". I owned one and it detonated, ...was WAY to heavy, and IMHO (and that of some other speed gurus) has the spark plug placement in the wrong location. Based on my seat-of-the-pants evaluation, the better uses for one would be as a door stop or to anchor the boat out in the middle of the lake. Naturally you should speak with other 'banger gurus' who have many years of experience with making horsepower with a banger engine to get their opinion and feedback! I really hate to say much about it for fear someone might get the impression I was dissatisfied with mine. I would like to know how many people out there are still the original purchasers of their Lion head! THAT may be the real indicator since I believe you don't find too many people who tried a Brumfield, or a Price or Snyders head and then took them off!
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:28 AM   #3
Dave in MN
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Vic,
I, just like you, bought one some time back.
I just installed the Lion Head III cast iron (LSH-III) on an engine I built up for a future project. Two weeks ago I installed it in my Phaeton for testing this summer. I do not have it dialed in yet as to maximum spark advance. I am currently running at a max advance of 28 BTDC and find it is very strong above 2000 rpm. Felt strength from idle to 1800 rpm is not much different than the 5.9 Brumfield on my previous engine in the Phaeton. Acceleration from 50mph to 60mph is quick using a stock Zenith and all the same equipment as the engine with the Brumfield...I am working on a new intake and "B" carb to add additional cfm at the upper range. I expect it to increase the power at the 55 mph mark. If I advance to 28 BTDC prior to reaching about 2200 rpm, there is what I detect to be some pre-ignition noise. I'm a bit concerned that I will need to be more mindful of how I set the spark. From my observations with limited road testing, the Brumfield was much less sensitive to the spark advance in all the rpm ranges than the LSH-III. Granted...the engine is different and there may be some other factors entering in. If you wish, I will keep you informed.
Good Day!
Dave in MN


Follow-up:
Well, I have it bolted on and it's paid for so I'll see for myself how it works. Given its sensitivity to spark advance, maybe it would companion well with a distributor that had centrifugal advance. I don't have a distributor like this to try...yet!
Vic, I just re-read your post and realized you were referring to an "original" LSH. I had purchased a LSH-III. I don't know if there is a difference.
ADDITIONAL REASON: (added after further testing) The extra weight of the Lion Speed Head is not detracting from the acceleration of my car. WOW! This thing really pulls hard above 1800 rpm. HOLY MOLY...

4/22/2014 Late last summer, I removed the head and hand softened all the sharp machined edges to eliminate any potential heat risers. Re-installed it and it is working well. On my engine, I have found the LSH-111 head performs best at about 26 degrees (max) of advance. More advance is not adding power. I installed a FSI auto advance distributor with the total advance range narrowed from stock and it compensates for the head's variable timing needs well. Lots more power than my other engine with a 5.9 Brumfield. The Brumfield produces 55hp with Nu-Rex electronic spark...manual advance. The Lion Speed Head lll, with same carb and exhaust but FSI Ignition, puts out 68hp. I judge the ignitions to be about equal so the head is making about 13 more horses.

Good Day!
Dave

Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-23-2014 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Update after a year of running.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic
vic,
ive run a lsh 111 for 5 years and my warmed B runs great with the improvements i have , including electronic ign module. and i like the beefy weight/thickness of its metal ! regarding the first two versions...i hate to tell you; that i ended up with this third version of this type head because of the negative comments i heard from owners regarding the first two lsh versions. i avoided those first two and bought the lsh 111 version upon learning of positive comments owner satisfaction with that head. now...from 5 yr experience, i can say that it is/was money well spent. no problem encountered whatsoever, and i figure with the extra weight, that this version could be milled as much as desired/practical without deck 'thinness' concerns ! btw..i think my lsh 111 weighs in at nearly 53 lbs, and jmo, thats a good thing. hey if your 1/4 mi (47mph ?) racer rod isnt satisfying you due to (head) weight ....take the fenders/bumpers off
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #5
Vic in E-TN
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic
Am I missing something? Brent didn't like it, Dave said the jury's still out and hardtimes liked the head.

What exactly was wrong with the earlier versions, hardtimes?
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:30 PM   #7
Vic in E-TN
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
Vic, look at your head and see if the spark plugs are not located over top of the Pistons (instead of the valves). Also look at the combustion chamber and see if the edges are sharp. Also, check your PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I believe Snyders heads are unavailable at this time. They are looking for a different foundry or machine shop. Can't get anyone at Brumfields to answer the phone and he doesn't answer an email. So that leaves good ole Charlie- lots of luck!
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Haven't heard anything on Snyders but the last 2 heads I have seen that members have purchased recently were very rough castings.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:51 PM   #11
Bill Lee/Virginia
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I purchased one of the first run of Lion Heads, number 8, I think, with dual plugs. I used Charlie's solid copper head gasket. I installed the LH on an engine built by Antique Engine Rebuilding of Skokie, IL that has inserts, touring cam and bored .080 over. I use a Mallory distributor to fire either bank of plugs but have not tried both banks at once. Either bank seems to perform the same, very good. I use the 6 cyl Ford downdraft carburetor on a modified '32 intake manifold (turned upside down). The differential is 3.54 to 1. When you release the clutch and push the gas, you better have the wheels pointed in the direction you want to go because you are going there, and rather quickly I might add.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
The LH III head I saw had 4 plugs and no boss for extra set of plugs ... so there might be two variants of the III ??
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I have one on my B diamond. The difference before and after was profound, Really. I bought it cause, if I have a Hi speed head, it should look like one. I never had a problem with mine. And yes she runs like a scaulded DOG. Iceman
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I have lion #13. It must be lucky 13. It did ping at first, due to the plug threads being extended too far into the combustion chamber. They acted like glow plugs. I ground the threads off below the tip of the spark plug, and sanded the sharp corners smooth ( not the edge that bites into the gasket). No more pinging. The head tolerates a lot of advance, its powerful and very smooth. The same engine with a Brumfield shaved to 7:1 is rough, tho' quite strong and tolerates only about 20 degrees advance.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:05 AM   #15
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Looks like most all topics,split reviews. I ran a Lion on an otherwise stock engine, definate power improvement. Personally, unless you are racing, the weight shouldn't make much difference. I like the looks of the head. Vic, P.M. me I have room for more Lion's!
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I had number 6, 7-1 it was on a much modified A engine. .155 over bore home made alum rods 1 13/16 intake valves, Stipe cam, down draft Ford 6 carb, light flywheel. This pick up would do well over 80 miles per hour. So I can not say about a stock engine. First I noticed the head was so heavy it would stay on with out bolts, well maybe not. It never could get enough spark advance with out spark knock. Probably because the plugs were in the wrong place. I changed it out for a Brumfield 7-1 it ran much better.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:31 AM   #17
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I installed a Piriano modified Lion III to replace a Thomas Aluminum head. Performance from 0 to 50 MPH was 1 second quicker. Much more felt power.

The only thing that puzzles me is that it runs slightly warmer.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

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I installed a Piriano modified Lion III to replace a Thomas Aluminum head. Performance from 0 to 50 MPH was 1 second quicker. Much more felt power.

The only thing that puzzles me is that it runs slightly warmer.
It should run warmer as the aluminum head dissipates heat better.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Thanks Brent. I have been looking for a cause. I am really impressed with the performance difference.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Charlie Yapp here; Thanks to exactly 47 men (so far) that have given me the heads up on the spirited comments made by Brent Terry on this important and informative board. Terry misused it as a propaganda Board. I have only met Brent once and found him to be a Model A man from the git go. However, his misinformed attitude about my Lion Speed Head is devastating to say the least.

Brent has his way of adding to our hobby by investing in his goodwill to teach others at his shop how to restore Model A Fords and we all would applaud his dedication to the hobby.

My telephone, email and home are open 24/7 to those with questions about my line of over 500 + speed products for Model A’s. I hide nothing and share as much as I can. I made these parts for you guys to have fun. . . I feel horrible that he has an unfair attitude and broadcasts it in a forum that should be for the truth and not prejudice. I can be contacted at [email protected]

Why would I produce over 500 different speed parts that didn’t work well? My heads have been dyno’d and so far nothing ever mass produced - so far - has more HP, torque and potential as the Lions. Please go to this site for more information
http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/lionstk.htm

Let me address the spark plug position: When I reproduced the Riley Two Port (1st version) it had the plugs on the driver’s side and was a casting nightmare to make. With tremendous trial and tribulation, thousands of dollars spent and 2-1/2 year of research we finally succeeded and to date, so far, I have shipped 715 reliable, dependable units. Historical records show that the Riley Two Port 1st version beat all other versions of the Riley 2 port.

The technology and impressive performance of spark plugs on the driver’s side has become a one of my trademarks . . . an identifier . . if you will. You will find all my heads (Lion, Lizard, Riley, Roof) have this positive characteristic . . . and each is heavy by design not by mistake.
In the Lion 1st version, many guys asked if it wouldn’t be possible to have 8 spark plugs . . hey why not . . double the fun. On later versions of the Lion I dropped the 4 plugs over the valves because . . they did not make as much HP as the driver’s side.

I have sold over 1000 of these heads. Yes, as in all undertakings, there have been minor issues, about .5%, that have been corrected, fixed or replaced. . . I stand behind my products.

The weight issue . . .It is the weight (stupid) that makes this head so smooth running and powerful. It also makes it possible for the experimenter to remove metal and reshape the chambers. Yes, it is heavy and if Terry makes a choice to use it as a boat anchor, I would think that to be a very bad choice. . . but as Terry is one of the "banger Boys" I guess that is what he will do . . . For more on the "Banger Boys" get the April issues of Secrets Magazine.

The Lion presently sells for $555 and that should be in Terry’s favor if and when he chooses to sell it. Due to a serious bankruptcy we lost our machine shop and I’m struggling to get these heads back online. They should be available this winter with a new chamber (so you can use bigger valve with out modification) and an 8 plug aluminum version V.

Allow me to correct Terry about aluminum heads: they rot from electrolysis, do not hold heat properly, pound for pound feature for feature they do not make the same HP as an identical cast iron version and they have reduced total spark advance characteristics. They do weight less and they polish nicely.

My mom always said, "fool’s names in foolish places". That was in an age without internet. By expressing his poor judgement on this wall in broadens the damage to his reputation and to mine without recourse. It not good, fair or honest to be an spokesman for our community of Ford enthusiasts with the mean spirited B.S that comes from Mr. Terry.

One guy said I should sue him. I don’t do that but a apology is in order.
Sincerely,
Charlie Yapp
Yapp Studios, Inc
3860 Cain Run Rd
Batavia OH 45103
513-724-0700
[email protected]
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Very, Very well stated Charlie. And if it means anything at all, i have a friend who runs one of your heads and he is very happy with the performance and the looks. Thanks for posting.
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:35 PM   #22
CHARLIE YAPP
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Thanks ZZ.
I appreaciate the support and the overwhelming phone calls from so many of you . . Who knew? . . . But guys I just have to go mow the lawn before it rains again. Four-Titude, Charlie
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Charlie- Thanks for posting the test data. I crave technical data and assume others do, too.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:59 PM   #24
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Charlie- Thanks for posting the test data. I crave technical data and assume others do, too.
Where is the test data?
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:23 PM   #25
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Where is the test data?

Test data by Dennis PIRANIO is in Charlie's post # 20:

http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/lionstk.htm


This URL will take you to the index for a number of tests:

http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheet...ynosheets.html

Last edited by Benson; 05-06-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:32 PM   #26
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I never met Brent or have done business with him. Nor have I met Charlie or done business with him. I read Brents comments and saw that he had personal experence with one of Charlie's heads.

"I owned one and it detonated, ...was WAY to heavy, and IMHO (and that of some other speed gurus) has the spark plug placement in the wrong location."

Notice how he stated that it was his opinion when talking about plug placement.

He went on to say; "Naturally you should speak with other 'banger gurus' who have many years of experience with making horsepower with a banger engine to get their opinion and feedback!"

So he gave his opinion based on personal experence and even suggested that one should seek out additional opinions from those that seek making horse power.

Another person went on to tell about the modes he hade to make his engine run well with the specific head he had on the engine.

As for Mr. Yapp, he is upset about the negatve comments on his speed head. As anyone would be! When one does his best to do a job correctly and to hear negative comments is a slap in the face to all the hard work and integrity he put into his product. Now to state "Terry misused it as a propaganda Board." I don't get it? Propaganda is " information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc. " I'm going to assume Charlie was not refering to helping him but hurting him. To what end does Mr. Terry want to harm him? Does he manufacture and sell heads so bad press would help him? Would he gain anything if Mr. Yapps speed products were to dissapear from the market? No is the answer to both of those so the post about his personal experences are not propaganda at all.

The post also states "Allow me to correct Terry about aluminum heads:..." I don't remember seeing anything about aluminum heads!

So to sum up my understanding, Brent had a problem with his Lion head, he posted his opinion on that and the placement on the spark plugs, advised the original poster to seek other opinions and nothing personal was stated about Mr. Yapp.

Charlie is upset about what Brent has posted. He should have and did, stated facts about the placement of the spark plugs, horse power, the role the weight plays in the smooth running of the engine, he has personally attacked Brent.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:06 PM   #27
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I just have one question about this discussion. Why did Brent use the term "Lyin' Head"? That sort of confused me. Was he implying that there were lies made about the quality of the product?
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:36 PM   #28
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I just have one question about this discussion. Why did Brent use the term "Lyin' Head"? That sort of confused me. Was he implying that there were lies made about the quality of the product?
I didn't notice that, I read the word but it didn't register!
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:44 PM   #29
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I just have one question about this discussion. Why did Brent use the term "Lyin' Head"? That sort of confused me. Was he implying that there were lies made about the quality of the product?
And how about,,,,,,

"the better uses for one would be as a door stop or to anchor the boat out in the middle of the lake".

I myself feel that if you dont like someone else's product, then so be it. But don't bad mouth it unless you made an effort to try and make one yourself. Other people seem to like it and don't have a problem with it. And i think Charlie was just trying to clarify his side of it, which he has every right to do.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:07 AM   #30
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I didn't notice that, I read the word but it didn't register!
mike v,
may i suggest that if your going to jump into the middle of gunfight...son, dont just bring a knife and start cutting up!
"didnt register" ? reread the thread and get it all to register, then start again if you will.. !
question..have you owned and/or run one of the heads in question??

im not defending nor denigrating anyone here, but noticed that ONLY one person, who has commented in this thread, CREATES HEADS that fit model A/B engines! i think that that persons knowledge carries some weight!
now speaking of weight, ive noticed that YOU are the second person who have made disparaging remarks about the weight of this head. would you please explain, in your expertise, what drawbacks there are to this ,or any head being heavy...as im anxious to learn what damage,if any, i am doing to my B engine , by having such head on it!
mabe id better use my original cragar as a boat anchor too, as its even heavier than my lsh 111 !
BTW..is it any wonder why the 'other' head maker guy who used to post here...doesnt ? sure like to have him comment regarding head weight.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:14 AM   #31
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now speaking of weight, ive noticed that YOU are the second person who have made disparaging remarks about the weight of this head.
Please show me where I made any disparaging remarks about the weight?
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:31 AM   #32
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To those who don't like the Lion head, how about some recomendations on which Hi-compression head YOU prefer.
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:36 AM   #33
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Nice spin on your rebuttal Charlie. As always, your choice of words continues to create a grin on my face. If someone had actually advised you to sue me, I find it ironic I need to defend truths about what I and others have experienced. For that I won't issue you an apology. Also, I am not sure what you are correcting me about because all I said is that aluminum heads dissipate heat better. Again, go write your propaganda in your magazine in the method that best suits your financial interests. You offered your rebuttal to my stated experiences and if you think that I am full of B.S. and not an asset to "our community of Ford enthusiests" (for which you have made two posts now), it really doesn't matter to me.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #34
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Hi Brent!
I'm relatively new here, so I don't know much of the history. I honestly did think your first post on the subject was written with some sarcasm and inuendo. Maybe that's the culture of the site, so that's really something I can't make a judgement about.

You did have a few substantive criticisms of the Lion Head that I would appreciate hearing a little more about so that I can gain some knowledge.

You said that your Lion Head detonated. Other posters said that they were able to overcome this issue. Was this problem something you tried to address? What did you try? If you didn't try to rectify it, that's cool. I would just appreciate your thoughts and experiences in that regard.

You felt the head was excessively heavy. What are the negative ramifications of a heavy head? Does it affect the steering? I'm new to the hobby, so I would appreciate knowing exactly what you experienced.

Likewise, what is wrong with where the spark plugs are located in the head? What bad things happen as a result?

I don't think I'm the only person who comes to this forum for help and factual information. Maybe someone can suggest to the owner of the site that he start a general B.S. sub forum where people can kid around and air greviences so as to keep the car specific forums fact based.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:42 AM   #35
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Hi Brent!
I'm relatively new here, so I don't know much of the history. I honestly did think your first post on the subject was written with some sarcasm and inuendo. Maybe that's the culture of the site, so that's really something I can't make a judgement about.

You did have a few substantive criticisms of the Lion Head that I would appreciate hearing a little more about so that I can gain some knowledge.

You said that your Lion Head detonated. Other posters said that they were able to overcome this issue. Was this problem something you tried to address? What did you try? If you didn't try to rectify it, that's cool. I would just appreciate your thoughts and experiences in that regard.

You felt the head was excessively heavy. What are the negative ramifications of a heavy head? Does it affect the steering? I'm new to the hobby, so I would appreciate knowing exactly what you experienced.

Likewise, what is wrong with where the spark plugs are located in the head? What bad things happen as a result?

I don't think I'm the only person who comes to this forum for help and factual information. Maybe someone can suggest to the owner of the site that he start a general B.S. sub forum where people can kid around and air greviences so as to keep the car specific forums fact based.
I am not willing to get into a contest here RMAK. Vic (whom I know personally and whom has been to my shop) asked a question and I stated my opinion of what I experienced with my head and that is all I am going to say about the subject.

To qualify my position, I have raced bangers, and have owned --and still have a decent sized collection of high-performance banger items. I said that, to say this. I have been around the block a time or two with personal experiences, and have had the priveledge to hang out and run with some of the gurus that have "walked the walk" who felt comfortable with my objectives to share their experiences. With regard to what I post here, those that know me know that I don't pull any punches. It is what it is! This may offend some folks but like I said, it is what it is. Please think about the price you paid for my stated experiences. If someone wants to do as I have and spend the money to purchase a high-performance item, and prove to themselves what works (and what doesn't), then I say go for it. You won't offend me!!
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:51 AM   #36
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I am not willing to get into a contest here RMAK. .
Not what I was looking for. Sorry if you took it that way.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:25 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
I never met Brent or have done business with him. Nor have I met Charlie or done business with him. I read Brents comments and saw that he had personal experence with one of Charlie's heads.

"I owned one and it detonated, ...was WAY to heavy, and IMHO (and that of some other speed gurus) has the spark plug placement in the wrong location."
Mike I agree that this is a place for people to discuss flat fords and they are opinions through and through.

If you believe everything that's written on the internet you would be a fool.

Can't we all get along. Thanks Brett and Charlie posting information about lion heads. To me the heads are experimental (speed heads) and can be discussed as so. Best of luck and good will to both of you.

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Old 05-07-2011, 01:14 PM   #38
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Mike I agree that this is a place for people to discuss flat fords and they are opinions through and through.

If you believe everything that's written on the internet you would be a fool.

Can't we all get along. Thanks Brett and Charlie posting information about lion heads. To me the heads are experimental (speed heads) and can be discussed as so. Best of luck and good will to both of you.

But what do I know I run a stock head in my A.
I agree! Because of Mr. Yapps posting I now know how versatile his heads are. Extra beef to allow custom milling and shaping of the combustion chamber. Places to add additional spark plugs if you want of need, the heavy weight to aid in the eliminating hot spots. Cast Iron to eliminate electrolysis. This is the first head I read of that you can do so much to and it was from this thread.

I just don't like the personal attacts when someone posts their own personal experences. I want to hear the good as well as the bad things that people experence without the fear of being personally attacked for their opinion.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:30 PM   #39
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To Charlie Yapp.

Don't let the sarcastic comments, cheap shots and inuendos, and the peanut gallery supporter from Flor-i-duh get you down.

Your contributions of experience, quality products and vision to this hobby have been legendary. Thank you. Keep up the great work. !
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:35 PM   #40
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To Charlie Yapp.

Don't let the sarcastic comments, cheap shots and inuendos, and the peanut gallery supporter from Flor-i-duh get you down. ...
Pot, meet kettle.
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Old 05-07-2011, 02:16 PM   #41
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Guys come on. This is the very "krap" that has filtrated over from another forum that many of us dreaded would come. A couple of things that should be noted and then lets move on since Vic has likely received an answer to his original question.

1st) I stated my opinion in a manner that I deemed appropriate based on my own personal experiences (not hearsay) with the same type of head as what Vic has. It is worth noting that all the negative comments are from folks who have experienced the heads other than the latest version. I might also be worth noting that it was mentioned that one satisfied owner of his Lion Head waited until he knew the issues with the first two generations of heads were corrected. It is a shame the archive of this forum are not available to review because this head was discussed quite a bit 5+ years ago.

2nd) Charlie is perfectly welcome IMHO to come here and defend his product and his integrity. He has stated his side, his views, and his reasoning. I have stated my side. This is not, --nor should it be a contest. No one wins!!


The bottom line is people only believe what seems believable to them. If someone thinks my answer to a question is B.S., ...then so be it. My feeling is let them go find out for themselves through first-hand experience rather than word-of-mouth hearsay. Maybe my experiences will be different? Like I said above, I do feel it is time to move on to the next topic as opinions are already formed and it would appear nothing is to be gained by more criticizm of people who have stated their opinion or their experiences.

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Old 05-07-2011, 03:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Please show me where I made any disparaging remarks about the weight?
mike,
'disparating'..my bad! I tried to change wording(to 'referenced remark')but machine wouldnt allow me!
I hesitate to write this but i knew, or have reason to know, that this subject (Yapp equipment) could/would ignite some background feelings/history here! and, indeed, there is a history that I became aware of many years ago, before fordbarn. there are some that visit here, that im aware of, that know that history, in detail, but haven't said a thing and thats probably a good thing, because although interesting, just cause pissing in the wind here. I think that some here, intuitively sense something underlying..by their input. historically in the 'hobby' ,probably a basis for an interesting but otherwise ugly book!
point: well most 'stepped into' a situation without knowing it.
to clarify my earlier remarks/position: i have absolutely NO first hand knowledge that the first two 'editions' of the lsh were substantard equipment...in any way! upon inquiry, heresy word of mouth info led me to deduce that it was not prudent for ME to seek and/or purchase one of the first two editions. AND, as the third edition run had already been online and reviews(again word of mouth)that is was good...led me to purchase lsh 111 !
thanks ryan for allowing/facilitating lively interaction/discussion here!
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:42 PM   #43
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mike,
'disparating'..my bad! I tried to change wording(to 'referenced remark')but machine wouldnt allow me!
I hesitate to write this but i knew, or have reason to know, that this subject (Yapp equipment) could/would ignite some background feelings/history here! and, indeed, there is a history that I became aware of many years ago, before fordbarn. there are some that visit here, that im aware of, that know that history, in detail, but haven't said a thing and thats probably a good thing, because although interesting, just cause pissing in the wind here. I think that some here, intuitively sense something underlying..by their input. historically in the 'hobby' ,probably a basis for an interesting but otherwise ugly book!
point: well most 'stepped into' a situation without knowing it.
to clarify my earlier remarks/position: i have absolutely NO first hand knowledge that the first two 'editions' of the lsh were substantard equipment...in any way! upon inquiry, heresy word of mouth info led me to deduce that it was not prudent for ME to seek and/or purchase one of the first two editions. AND, as the third edition run had already been online and reviews(again word of mouth)that is was good...led me to purchase lsh 111 !
thanks ryan for allowing/facilitating lively interaction/discussion here!
Hey, no problem!! I had no idea there were three either. As for any sarcastic remarks, I truly did learn something about the heads. What some consider a flaw some consider an opportunity. As for any "history" I know of none but now that you mention it I can better understand what was written. If Brent and Charlie have a "history" I can see how the negative comments about a product could have been seen as a personal attack on the builder of that product. Again I know nothing of any past problems between the two of them, the original post asked for "comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?", and I think he got more than he expected.

I have nothing personal against anyone here on this board, I like the differing opinions and the lively discussions. I don't like personal attacks. I called a member here odd once and I should have said his actions were odd but after talking off the board we had an understanding and he could see my point, disagreeed with it, but could see how I came up with it, Anyone should be able disagree with anything one has to say but comment on the content not the person. Has anyone read a post that begins something like "I know this has been covered before and I don't want to cause a problem but I need help with..." What if we answered with "You stupid a$$, it sure has!! Why are you bothering us again!!!"

Many of you have answered something like, "If you look here at the link I have provided you will see a discussion on that topic, let us know if you have any questions".

So this is it for me on this unless my name is brought up in public. Please feel free to PM me or send an email if you want to talk further. God Bless the Model A, this board and all who use it!
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:31 AM   #44
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Lion Speed Head: version 1, 2, 3, 3-A, 4
I offer this spec sheet for those that have a used or older Lion Speed Head.
IRON lion Speed heads are made from one set of patterns. Structurally all versions are the same on the outside and inside. The difference is in machining.

Version I ("I" was NOT cast into the head) was head cast with plugs on the driver’s side, a set of cast in spark plug positions over the valves (8 total) and with Combustion Chambers "as cast". The head could be machined for the second set of plugs at purchase time and, if not, a set of instructions were sent with the head. Version I ran and worked as planned using a "B" head gasket. The issue with VI was that cubic centimeter control of the chambers was difficult to hold as the cast iron process and use of cores to make the chambers had tendency to grow, expand and move a slight amount. I wanted better control over cc’s. These were offered in 6:1 (1/4" fly-cut) , 7:1 (1/8" fly-cut) and 8:1 CR (no fly cut).

V-II was identical in all ways except that I had the pattern maker add material to the chamber wall and roof, so that we could then machine the chambers and to control the cc’s to a much higher degree. This made the chamber gleam like diamonds. I doubt if performance improved much, perhaps a small amount, but the product was much more attractive and professional. AND it allowed even more control of compression ratio by the amount of material removed from the roof of the chamber. It was offered in 6 and 7:1 CR. A 1/16" fly-cut was found on the 7:1 cr and deeper cut was on 6:1 CR heads. These V-1 and V-2 heads are highly sought after by racers and collectors.

V-III (pattern change) was identical but the valve side plugs and corresponding interior core slugs were removed (Dyno showed a loss of HP with plugs used only at the valve side). These VIII heads can not be machined for 4 extra plugs. This reduced weight a bit and added greater water volume. However, I have never had complaints, from the field, about Lions running hot. "HOT" meaning boiling over in normal road conditions. This head has had the longer run of four years and was available only in 6.5:1, because after dyno testing, it was found to be more powerful than other 7:1 brand heads on the market and more powerful (HP and Torque) than any known production flathead made so far. There just wasn’t a need to make it stronger . . . keeping in mind that my #1 objective is to keep my customers on the road with a big grin on their faces and not in the shop.

V-III-A is identical to VIII with the exception that it will be (not on market yet) machined to accept 1-3/4" exhaust valves without machining required in the field. 6.5:1 CR.

V-IV is 356-T6 aluminum from new patterns. These nice heads are run in small quantities with 8 plugs capability and machined for big valves. I do not personally like aluminum for reasonable reasons already mentioned but there are some folks that need them for a variety of uses and it is my hope that offering these will help out that segment of the community. 6.1CR.

Issues: V-I has to be used with a "B" head gasket. There are 4 small areas where the gasket might overlap into chambers. With a "B" BEST brand head gasket this hasn’t been a running problem.

Heads weigh 42 pounds, which is uncommon but is proven as a HP and smoothness advantage.

Can be difficult to remove. Some guys have threaded a rear stud hole to accept an eye bolt to attach a sling for removal.

Head is sensitive to spark control (a good thing) and most old timers are not use to it. An electronic ignition and centrifugal advance distributor pretty much eliminates the issue. If using a hand advance lever do not fully advance until over about 50 mph.

CR is a bit of a misnomer: CR is dependant on chamber cc volume, which is controlled by piston shape, pop-up or under, cylinder overbore, gasket thickness . . so an advertised 6:5 CR may actually be higher. I shoot for 140 cc in a machined chamber for present production.

Production: I have not made any heads for about one year. I lost my prime machine shop and we are re tooling at another. I hope to have product back on the shelf in November 2011.

When it come to engines and performance "opinions", "gut feelings" and "doing it the way its always been done" will slow you down. C. Yapp

Last edited by CHARLIE YAPP; 04-17-2012 at 07:22 AM. Reason: PART NUMBER CHANGES
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:44 AM   #45
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Charlie . I agree with mikeinnj . Keep on keeping on ,dont let brent or mike get you down . If its not what they like no matter who or what it is they will get the same attitude and comments ,i have my share i dont know brent or mike personaly i am sure they are great men and and enjoy there model a .they just dont like change. God bless
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:13 PM   #46
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Charlie,

Keep making good stuff. My Lion III did more for my speedster's performance than anything I have put on it.

Bill
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:32 PM   #47
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Charlie, thanks for posting this. Very informative indeed. As for the comment of you attacking another poster, i would have to disagree. It was obviously the other way around, which alot of people seen. Keep up the good work and good luck with the new retooling. Keep us updated. Mark.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:31 PM   #48
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I have had one of the orginal LSH's on my Fordor Sedan since Charlie first started taking orders. It orginally ran on a stock engine and now a H&H Touring motor, F&S Electronis ignition and his castiron headers. I am also using Charlie's Equilzer Intake with a Stromberg 97 and an F150 4 speed. My wife and I do a lot of long distance touring. I have found the LSH to be great reliable and trouble free. Last year we drove 2500 miles on an extended MAFCA Pony Express Tour and this year from KC MO to Natchez MS on a MAFCA Tour and mostly at highway speeds without any problems. With the amount of luggage we carry or sometimes extra people I don't even consider the weight of the head to be an issue.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:39 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Hummm.........


Let me see if I can say this with a straight face. No seriously! Stop THAT!!

<gasp> OK, ... I guess it depends on what your goals are with the "Lyin' Head".
Umm, you would be a little more courteous without the name calling.
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:45 AM   #50
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OK, time to jump in.

I'm well acquainted with Brent, I like him a lot and respect his opinions most of the time (except when mine are different, I guess ).

I have spoken with Charlie at at least one national meet and came away with a good feeling about him & his products.

when Charlie announced his first pre-production special on Ahooga.com, I was #17 in line and ended up with head #31, a 6:1 with single spark plugs.

put it on my old black Tudor which was bored .100 over, with a B carb & manifold and Mitchell OD.

it ran GREAT and caused NO PROBLEMS. if I wanted to stay under 60mph I had to keep an eye on it. liked it enough that I removed & kept it when I sold the car. then my friend Mike who is building the Behrig Convertible Victoria wanted it, so I traded with him for a new 5.9 Brumfield. Mike changed his mind later so we traded back and I still have the Lion head on the shelf waiting patienty.

I found the Lion to be a little more fussy regarding spark advance compared to the Brumfield we have on our Town Sedan. Also the cooling fins require the spark rod to be lengthened and bent if you run a stock distributor. other than that, I recommend the Lion and don't see any down side to the extra weight.

we are going to get our Coupe engine refreshed this year (valves + rings + whatever else it needs). if the babbit is still good, I will put a Snyder 5.5 on it. if new babbit is required, I might just put the Lion on it.

stay tuned.

your results may vary.

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Old 04-21-2014, 02:11 PM   #51
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I have a lion speed head 3 on my "a" . it really pulls hard . I love it !!
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:32 PM   #52
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How can we tell if we have a v1 or v2 head without removing it?
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:43 PM   #53
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talk about a slow internet connection ...............
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:53 PM   #54
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3-years isn't so slow -- In Model A years!
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:25 PM   #55
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I like my Model A mostly the way it was originally designed, double clutch and all. That's the fun of it. I have a modern car that's real quick,but respect those who like to tinker with modifications. To each his own.
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:01 PM   #56
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talk about a slow internet connection ...............
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlG View Post
3-years isn't so slow -- In Model A years!
Talk about bringing the dead back;

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Old 04-22-2014, 06:40 AM   #57
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHARLIE YAPP View Post
Lion Speed Head: version 1, 2, 3, 3-A, 4
I offer this spec sheet for those that have a used or older Lion Speed Head.
IRON lion Speed heads are made from one set of patterns. Structurally all versions are the same on the outside and inside. The difference is in machining.

Version I ("I" was NOT cast into the head) was head cast with plugs on the driver’s side, a set of cast in spark plug positions over the valves (8 total) and with Combustion Chambers "as cast". The head could be machined for the second set of plugs at purchase time and, if not, a set of instructions were sent with the head. Version I ran and worked as planned using a "B" head gasket. The issue with VI was that cubic centimeter control of the chambers was difficult to hold as the cast iron process and use of cores to make the chambers had tendency to grow, expand and move a slight amount. I wanted better control over cc’s. These were offered in 6:1 (1/4" fly-cut) , 7:1 (1/8" fly-cut) and 8:1 CR (no fly cut).

V-II was identical in all ways except that I had the pattern maker add material to the chamber wall and roof, so that we could then machine the chambers and to control the cc’s to a much higher degree. This made the chamber gleam like diamonds. I doubt if performance improved much, perhaps a small amount, but the product was much more attractive and professional. AND it allowed even more control of compression ratio by the amount of material removed from the roof of the chamber. It was offered in 6 and 7:1 CR. A 1/16" fly-cut was found on the 7:1 cr and deeper cut was on 6:1 CR heads. These V-1 and V-2 heads are highly sought after by racers and collectors.

V-III (pattern change) was identical but the valve side plugs and corresponding interior core slugs were removed (Dyno showed a loss of HP with plugs used only at the valve side). These VIII heads can not be machined for 4 extra plugs. This reduced weight a bit and added greater water volume. However, I have never had complaints, from the field, about Lions running hot. "HOT" meaning boiling over in normal road conditions. This head has had the longer run of four years and was available only in 6.5:1, because after dyno testing, it was found to be more powerful than other 7:1 brand heads on the market and more powerful (HP and Torque) than any known production flathead made so far. There just wasn’t a need to make it stronger . . . keeping in mind that my #1 objective is to keep my customers on the road with a big grin on their faces and not in the shop.

V-III-A is identical to VIII with the exception that it will be (not on market yet) machined to accept 1-3/4" exhaust valves without machining required in the field. 6.5:1 CR.

V-IV is 356-T6 aluminum from new patterns. These nice heads are run in small quantities with 8 plugs capability and machined for big valves. I do not personally like aluminum for reasonable reasons already mentioned but there are some folks that need them for a variety of uses and it is my hope that offering these will help out that segment of the community. 6.1CR.

Issues: V-I has to be used with a "B" head gasket. There are 4 small areas where the gasket might overlap into chambers. With a "B" BEST brand head gasket this hasn’t been a running problem.

Heads weigh 42 pounds, which is uncommon but is proven as a HP and smoothness advantage.

Can be difficult to remove. Some guys have threaded a rear stud hole to accept an eye bolt to attach a sling for removal.

Head is sensitive to spark control (a good thing) and most old timers are not use to it. An electronic ignition and centrifugal advance distributor pretty much eliminates the issue. If using a hand advance lever do not fully advance until over about 50 mph.

CR is a bit of a misnomer: CR is dependant on chamber cc volume, which is controlled by piston shape, pop-up or under, cylinder overbore, gasket thickness . . so an advertised 6:5 CR may actually be higher. I shoot for 140 cc in a machined chamber for present production.

Production: I have not made any heads for about one year. I lost my prime machine shop and we are re tooling at another. I hope to have product back on the shelf in November 2011.

When it come to engines and performance "opinions", "gut feelings" and "doing it the way its always been done" will slow you down. C. Yapp
Here is the differences in the versions of the heads
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:20 AM   #58
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while we are talking head . is anyone running a lsh3 with a weber ? if so , what is your jetting ? ... thank you .. steve
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:54 AM   #59
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Just got off the phone with charlie yapp, for info on one of our lion heads its a v1, good guy willing to help,
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:47 PM   #60
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I believe Snyders heads are unavailable at this time. They are looking for a different foundry or machine shop.
Hmmmmn. Terry Burtz makes parts for Snyder's. He is also having foundry problems. Could Terry be the source for Snyder's head?
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:53 PM   #61
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It should run warmer as the aluminum head dissipates heat better.
But you have to remember that Henry used iron heads as orginal equipment.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:07 PM   #62
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[QUOTE=johnsor;863064]I like my Model A mostly the way it was originally designed, double clutch and all

You use the clutch to shift? I learned to shift my first Model A without using the clutch when I was 16.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:15 PM   #63
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Hmmmmn. Terry Burtz makes parts for Snyder's. He is also having foundry problems. Could Terry be the source for Snyder's head?
Hey Chris,
Answer...NO !
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:06 PM   #64
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Vic,
I, just like you, bought one some time back.
I just installed the Lion Head III cast iron (LSH-III) on an engine I built up for a future project. Two weeks ago I installed it in my Phaeton for testing this summer. I do not have it dialed in yet as to maximum spark advance. I am currently running at a max advance of 28 BTDC and find it is very strong above 2000 rpm. Felt strength from idle to 1800 rpm is not much different than the 5.9 Brumfield on my previous engine in the Phaeton. Acceleration from 50mph to 60mph is quick using a stock Zenith and all the same equipment as the engine with the Brumfield...I am working on a new intake and "B" carb to add additional cfm at the upper range. I expect it to increase the power at the 55 mph mark. If I advance to 28 BTDC prior to reaching about 2200 rpm, there is what I detect to be some pre-ignition noise. I'm a bit concerned that I will need to be more mindful of how I set the spark. From my observations with limited road testing, the Brumfield was much less sensitive to the spark advance in all the rpm ranges than the LSH-III. Granted...the engine is different and there may be some other factors entering in. If you wish, I will keep you informed.
Good Day!
Dave in MN

Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input


Follow-up:
Well, I have it bolted on and it's paid for so I'll see for myself how it works. Given its sensitivity to spark advance, maybe it would companion well with a distributor that had centrifugal advance. I don't have a distributor like this to try...yet!
Vic, I just re-read your post and realized you were referring to an "original" LSH. I had purchased a LSH-III. I don't know if there is a difference.
ADDITIONAL REASON: (added after further testing) The extra weight of the Lion Speed Head is not detracting from the acceleration of my car. WOW! This thing really pulls hard above 1800 rpm. HOLY MOLY...

4/22/2014 Late last summer, I removed the head and hand softened all the sharp machined edges to eliminate any potential heat risers. Re-installed it and it is working well. On my engine, I have found the LSH-111 head performs best at about 26 degrees of advance. More advance is not adding power. I installed a FSI auto advance distributor and it compensates for the head's variable timing needs well. Lots more power than my other engine with a 5.9 Brumfield. The Brumfield produces 55hp with Nu-Rex electronic spark...manual advance. The Lion Speed Head lll, with same carb and exhaust but FSI Ignition, puts out 68hp. I judge the ignitions to be about equal so the head is making about 13 more horses.

Good Day!
Dave
Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input. You say that you figure that the Lion 111 gives 13 more horsepower than the 5.9 BF head. This is very interesting. I'm wondering if your lion head is six to one or seven to one? Thanks Purdy .
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:38 PM   #65
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We have a v1` lion head and does not perform as expected,(stock dist.) after talking with Charlie yapp(head builder) and fs ignitions. we will be installing the new fs dist. on Thursday,both companys say we will see a big improvement. will keep you up to date>
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:10 PM   #66
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Hey Chris,
Answer...NO !
Do you know who makes them?
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:44 AM   #67
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Do you know who makes them?
The guy who is casting new engine blocks Todd
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:22 AM   #68
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Tod Buttermore

Has cast and machined heads for the 351 Ford Cleveland engines.

I believe he casts and machines the Snyder Model A heads also.

Some Model T parts too.


details here and several other sites, HAMB, early V8 etc.

http://fordbarn.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3877098

User name on Model A FB is Tod

other user name on HAMB I have seen is 427designer


See post number 9 and below where Tod introduces himself on HAMB.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=616056


MORE...

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135011

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Old 04-23-2014, 08:16 AM   #69
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Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input. You say that you figure that the Lion 111 gives 13 more horsepower than the 5.9 BF head. This is very interesting. I'm wondering if your lion head is six to one or seven to one? Thanks Purdy .
Purdy, Yes, 13 more HP as indicated from my dyno. (You can feel 13 HP when you step on the pedal!) The head is a 6.5:1 compression ratio if installed on a stock bore. My test engine is over-bored .080" so it is just short of 7:1 actual compression ratio...if my calc's are correct....sometimes they are not!
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:11 AM   #70
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Thanks Dave, I don't doubt your calculations. I was just wondering which head to buy, 6 or 7 to one. Charley once told me that the counter bore was plenty deep to mill his heads to 8 to 1 or more .
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:06 AM   #71
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Thanks Dave, I don't doubt your calculations. I was just wondering which head to buy, 6 or 7 to one. Charley once told me that the counter bore was plenty deep to mill his heads to 8 to 1 or more .
Purdy, The LSH-111 is currently only available in 6.5:1 from Charlie... unless he agreed to mill one for you. The earlier version LSH-11 was available in 7:1 and 6:1 compression ratios.

Dave
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:21 PM   #72
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Purdy, The LSH-111 is currently only available in 6.5:1 from Charlie... unless he agreed to mill one for you. The earlier version LSH-11 was available in 7:1 and 6:1 compression ratios.

Dave
Hey Dave,
Sounds like your experimenting is coming along good! If a guy 'insists' on using the original mechanical advance system...you will have to go thru what you have been experiencing with this lsh 111 version. I got one of the first copies of this version and ran it for last 6-8 years. I ended up where you may be headed, i.e.- electronic ignition ! Fire it up with retarded spark as per usual, then pull lever down and FORGET IT ! My B was built very sturdy .030 over with popup pistons with this head. I figure 7:1 and better. It ran VERY strong with 2 81s. I should have left well enough alone,eh . But, a guy can not do that, so one of the guys here is now 'bragging' about how well it runs on his engine !
BTW...for those who 'object' to the tooo modern look of some elect dist, I put pertronic elect module setup in my dist and never looked back. Absolutely trouble free. Only wish it had automatic advance, as I believe that I'd enjoy it even more !
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:52 PM   #73
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I run Mallory dual point distributors in two of my engines. You can get centrifugal advance without going to electronic. A Pertronix Flamethrower coil gives plenty hot spark. I'm a shade tree mechanic and prefer points ignition. Twenty five degrees advance, electronic or points should work just as well.
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Old 04-23-2014, 01:02 PM   #74
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I'll wait untill I get ready to build another engine before I look in to ordering a head. I see now that I mis read Daves post and the heads are now available only in .6.5 compression. Thats better and should be more user friendly than the 7.0 The increase in horsepower is impressive. If I can feel a nearly seven horse increase with a C or F3 head, you bet I could feel a 13 horse increase over the BF 5.9s

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Old 04-23-2014, 04:04 PM   #75
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What needs to be done to the version 0ne head to make it better?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:35 AM   #76
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What needs to be done to the version 0ne head to make it better?
anyone?
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:21 AM   #77
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so far the new (reworked) fs dist at 5 degrees adv at idle. really helped.
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Old 04-28-2014, 01:19 PM   #78
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anyone?
Well, good question ! IMO, same question asked differently is...how do you fix a design flaw in a piece of equipment ? The answer may be what was done, i.e.- make more versions , until you 'get it right' ?
Seems like a decade ago or less, when putting together the B that I've had in my A, I had discussions with people about buying a head with certain characteristics. While looking/talking about lion head, was told by those who 'claimed' to have bought the first two versions...don't do it. As it turned out, the third version just came out and good was heard. Turned out to be true. I've also heard over time that IRON head makes power, while aluminum...looks good ? Well, if iron makes power is true...this third version should make plenty power at 53 lbs My third version did positively add to my B.
I have intentionally not added the 'things' that were said that were wrong with v1 and v2, as I did not have direct evidence. Those who have / had them can better address that.
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:49 AM   #79
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why do people tiptoe around the question?
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Old 05-10-2014, 09:59 AM   #80
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Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Probably the best on could to improve a LH1 would be to equalize the combustion chamber in volume and shape for all 4 cylinders. This may not be easy. The LH3 has CNC cut combustion chambers while the LH1 chambers are "as cast".
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:26 AM   #81
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In my opinion ,Charlie Yapp has done more for our hobby than anyone else I know. He is a great person and in no way should he be slammed by anyone on this forum. A apology is in order I cannot believe that a personal attack like this should be allowed. Bruce Newbery.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:49 AM   #82
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Bruce, you are so right! known Charlie for many years, great guy. those slammers and attackers should be ashamed of themselves,but have no backbone to admit wrong.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:53 AM   #83
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I agree, Charley has done a lot for the performance side of the hobby, more than any other as far as variety of heads and other performance parts offered. Besides that, Charley is a regular guy and nice to talk with.

I don't have a Lion head at this time. I have read the model A forums for the past fourteen years. From what I have read, spark plug threads that protruded in to the combustion chambers and other sharp edges were the problems that needed to be addressed. Sharp edges and exposed threads heat quickly and can cause pre ignition.

I believe that all of Charlies heads have machined combustion chambers instead of cast as suggested in a previous post.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:00 PM   #84
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In my opinion ,Charlie Yapp has done more for our hobby than anyone else I know. He is a great person and in no way should he be slammed by anyone on this forum. A apology is in order I cannot believe that a personal attack like this should be allowed. Bruce Newbery.
Who knows what has happened in way of apologies in the 3 years since the comments were first made.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:18 AM   #85
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LOL to true . i just put a 5 gal bucket on mine with a trip hole . works but mileage is poor
but runs great ! ........ (joke)
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:44 AM   #86
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In my opinion ,Charlie Yapp has done more for our hobby than anyone else I know. He is a great person and in no way should he be slammed by anyone on this forum. A apology is in order I cannot believe that a personal attack like this should be allowed. Bruce Newbery.
I agree with you Bruce. Talked to Charlie some time ago on the phone. A true gentleman and a pleasure to talk to. Wish him the best.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:30 AM   #87
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Interesting topic and well handled,credit where it’s due.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:29 PM   #88
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I have a Lion 1 head that has never been used. After all, I have it so I might as well use it. I may go ahead and install it after deburring the chambers. I think it may work well with a B distributor and the dual carb Vortex intake I have for a little boost in power over stock. Anyone know what all should be done to these heads to improve them?

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Old 07-08-2020, 02:17 PM   #89
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I am running the aluminum version of this on a old beater engine with new cam and valves. Single small Stromberg, 81 I think. Runs great, wish I had the iron version just because of corrosion, but I like mine a lot.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:00 AM   #90
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I also bought an early version of Lion Head III and had severe knocking.

I wish that I had seen this info posted here by Pat in Santa Cruz and Dave in MN and others before I sold the head. (Posts 3 and 14 ... there are others)

Shortly after the problems, I started using car in business and needed a stock engine without the problems that I was having.


So the "Head with the Large B" went back on the engine.

I needed money around this time and besides a fellow offered me $145 more than I paid for it a few months earlier!

I know a few folks running Lion IIIs today and they really like them. The owners or previous owners must have fixed the problems.

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Old 07-09-2020, 08:32 PM   #91
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I have 20k miles on mine. Works great!
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Old 08-06-2020, 10:01 PM   #92
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I have 20k miles on mine. Works great!
Steve, the Lion III?
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Old 09-11-2020, 02:45 PM   #93
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Steve, the Lion III?
DB,

I was visiting SteveB31 the other day and that head on his car is indeed a Lion Head III
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