Front spindles

[Cape Codder]

I have written on this Forum some time ago about the Repair / Replacement of the Front Spindles. I have 5 Spindles which today I was told by my local Machinist that none of them were any good. He also said that he would not repair any of them. His reasoning was that they had the surface of the large or small bearing galled, or the threads were so worn that the nut can be moved, or the holes where the king pin bushings are installed are to thin of an area.

I had bought two used ones from Bert's but they did not meet my expectation's so I returned them and received a FULL refund. Thank You Bert's! I called him today to inquire about some NOS ones but was told NONE are available.

What are those of you that are doing full restorations do? I'm sure everyone does not have excellent spindles. Are these being repaired in some fashion, and if so what company? Are these repairs safe? Or are you getting used ones that have the bearing areas in excellent shape along with the King Pin holes?

Any help or ideas would be EXTREMELY APPRECIATED!

[Gene F]

I THINK that Speedway Motors sells new ones in original design, or streetrod.

[Cape Codder]

Gene F
No Gene they will not fit because there is not one of the attaching points needed for the "A". BUT, thank you for responding!

[Reds34]

I am very curious what Brent has to say about this. I am also wondering how the area where the king pin bushings mount gets thin? This area really shouldn't wear, unless the bushings wear out.

Red

[Pete]

They CAN be reconditioned to original including heat treat but it is very expensive and finding someone qualified will not be easy.
You need to educate yourself on inspection methods so you will know what you are getting in the end. You may have to farm the inspection out to a qualified company.
It all has to do with liability. That is why very few do that kind of work any more.

[Cape Codder]

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Reds 34
I have talked to Brent about how they are fixed but I don't have the capability or the equipment. So I'm looking for someone capable of doing the job or buying a set.

[Cape Codder]

Pete I can't find anyone to do the job. I really don't know how they can be fixed.

[Reds34]

Cape Codder,

Would it be possible to buy a set from Brent?

Red

[1931 flamingo]

What was/is wrong with the ones that you want to replace??
Paul in CT Reach out over on the HAMB, many over there update an A's front end.

[Cape Codder]

They are worn where the inner / outer bearings go.
The NEW ones used by the HAMB group (Hot Rod Guys) are not the same!

[Kurt in NJ]

I find them in the 1$ boxes at flea markets, got 1 nos, and a real nice one with no wear showing, the only problem is it was tapped for taper thread grease fitting---once you know what to look for it's usually easy to find good parts cheap--- but it doesn't always happen quickly when there's a desperate need

[Cape Codder]

Kurt in NJ So how do you know these bargain's are any good? Are you buying them without measuring the inner and outer bearing surface.

[Pete]

Kurt's method is the cheapest way to go but it can take many years to find 2 good spindles and then it might be just your luck that 2 are both for the same side...lol

Seriously, one method I have used on race car spindles in the past was, first, mag and Xray inspect them. Then have them re-heat treated. Then pregrind the 2 bearing surfaces. Have those surfaces hard chromed and finish grind to size. Then baked per the mil spec number for SAE 6150 steel to alleviate hydrogen embrittlement. They worked ok where no liability problems could be involved.
I would never try rebuilding any parts like that for a street driven car.

[Kurt in NJ]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

Kurt in NJ So how do you know these bargain's are any good? Are you buying them without measuring the inner and outer bearing surface.

Its easy to see the wear, I look for a ridge, it is ground the same diameter each side of where the bearing rides, if it is worn enough to catch fingernail I don't even ask price, then I look at the top to see how much wear from the thrust bearing, if it is flat there or very little wear it's ok (though it's something that I can fix by machining for a shim washer), look into the steering arm holes for damage, --I use machining marks as guide, if they are gone or the hole looks oval from movement i put it down , scratches along the length of the hole may not be a problem if there are just a few
And yes, I do usually bring digital calipers with me to flea market, there are ways to use it to measure brake drums, can measure a 12 inch drum with a 6 inch caliper, and I look at crankshafts, engine blocks sometimes.

[bobbader]

Cape Codder,

Check your Private Messages (top of the page under "Welcome")

Bob Bader

[sofield]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

I have written on this Forum some time ago about the Repair / Replacement of the Front Spindles. I have 5 Spindles which today I was told by my local Machinist that none of them were any good. He also said that he would not repair any of them. His reasoning was that they had the surface of the large or small bearing galled, or the threads were so worn that the nut can be moved, or the holes where the king pin bushings are installed are to thin of an area.

I had bought two used ones from Bert's but they did not meet my expectation's so I returned them and received a FULL refund. Thank You Bert's! I called him today to inquire about some NOS ones but was told NONE are available.

What are those of you that are doing full restorations do? I'm sure everyone does not have excellent spindles. Are these being repaired in some fashion, and if so what company? Are these repairs safe? Or are you getting used ones that have the bearing areas in excellent shape along with the King Pin holes?

Any help or ideas would be EXTREMELY APPRECIATED!

Just put an ad in the wanted section of the Barn and you will be surprised at the response.

[Kurt in NJ]

It's pretty easy to reject to well worn ones just by looking ,left picture top one showing some polishing, no measurable wear, the grinding marks are still evident
The middle one has polishing and slight wear, barely catching fingernail, measured it is worn 0.0015--
The bottom one it is obvious, worn 0.005 and the surface shows minor rust pitting -- throw it back and keep looking
Another place to look is the top where the thrust bearing rides, the 2 good ones also are not worn on the top, the real nice one on left still has the original rough machine marks intact, the middle one slight wear is just noticeable, the well worn one shows quit a bit of wear, if that is the only problem it can be machined flat and a shim used

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Reds34

I am very curious what Brent has to say about this. I am also wondering how the area where the king pin bushings mount gets thin? This area really shouldn't wear, unless the bushings wear out.

Red

Thank you Red. I actually spoke with Joe by telephone last Wednesday morning on my way to a Model-T tour in Maryland.

In a nutshell, good spindles are indeed getting harder to find. I was at an A/T swap meet a month or so ago, and I only saw three A spindles and none of them were any better than what I already had. This is not to say there weren't some that I missed, but I definitely didn't see them. Folks need to remember that just because an item is at a swap meet -or for sale in the classifieds, it doesn't mean it is a good one. More often than not, the reason it is being sold is because it had an issue in its past and was replaced with a better quality piece. Otherwise it would likely still be connected to a front axle.

While Joe does not possess the equipment, he did take a machine shop class years ago so he has the basic understanding in how I was explaining to him to repair what he had. I do think what has changed is two-fold. It used to be that many restorers had access to machining equipment at work, -or they might have a small shop at home. Those days are about gone, -and seemingly no one has a friend who has access to nor the ability to help restore one either.


Nonetheless, here is how I explained to Joe on the phone how we would restore one. If the threads on the end are damaged or worn, they can be repaired by a couple of methods. To begin with, spin the spindle between centers on a lathe and use the steering arm hole to 'dog it' to the chuck. Often times, the threads can be rethreaded to a 18mm x 1.5 nut size from a 19mm (¾") size which corrects the worn thread situation. Another alternative is to TIG weld lightly around the perimeter of the threads just to add filler rod. Since most of these are rolled threads (instead of cut threads), then there is already material there to work with. Basically all I do is just add enough heat to wash the metal around where it can be re-threaded with a single-point threading tool. This does not compromise the forging nor weaken it enough to create any safety issue.

If the top or bottom Spindle Bolt bushing area has been damaged, then a spindle bolt (king Pin) with some shim stock can be clamped into the hole and used to indicate from to find the centerline. Usually the area is only worn on one side and you will generally have at least 180° of original machined surface area to reference from. Just clamp the spindle into a vise chuck on the Mill, and then use a boring head to clean-up the hole to make it round. Then use a lathe to make an oversized bushing out of bronze to fit the new sized hole.

As far as worn bearing race surfaces, you can use a knurling tool, -or even layout a grid pattern onto the circumference of the race area using a Sharpie marker, -and then use centering punch on each dot to raise the surface area. Next, spin the spindle in the lathe between centers to machine the raised or knurled areas of the race to match the ID of the bearing. I have also machined the race areas slightly undersized and installed a hardened wear sleeve (stainless band) by shrinking it on. I have not done this on a Model-A spindle but I have done this on an 1927 Essex and on a '09 Oakland with success. On the Oakland, it originally had ball bearings and I converted it too tapered bearings.

So the bottom line is, things like this can be restored -or made serviceable again but you must be willing to be creative and use resources available to you.