Engine Oil Analysis

[rfitzpatrick]

Does anyone follow an engine oil analysis, at oil changes? This is not about your brand of oil -- but what is found when done -- Its not about weight or whethere its detergent or not.
What are you finding-
Thanks

[Patrick L.]

I have certain oil checked, but, not from the 'A'. I can't really see any advantage for an A.

[Jim Brierley]

I've had it done on my F-250 diesel, after running many more miles than suggested by Ford, I was pleasantly surprised with the results. For an A, I would think doing it only once or twice to determine when to change oil.

[Railcarmover]

Oil analysis is valuable insight into the condition of a component,provided you are consistent.A baseline of samples over the life of the component along with following a stringent collection proceedure is crucial to accurate readings..the human element is a factor as well,I worked on a fleet with a well managed collection and analysis program,only to have a supervisor discount the findings...

[Werner]

Good evening Fitzpatrick.

I can easily have oil samples analyzed in my former oil company. Two oil samples taken in this summer with about 800 miles produced the following results:

Nearly changed viscosity. Slightly reduced corrosion protection (TBN). Increased silicon content (without aluminum = sand dust). Very high condensed water content.

Used oil 20W / 50 (SC). Only little few short distances. Hose thermostat.

[Al 29Tudor]

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The only analysis I've done is looking in the bottom on the drain pan to find pieces of timing gear.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Werner

Good evening Fitzpatrick.

I can easily have oil samples analyzed in my former oil company. Two oil samples taken in this summer with about 800 miles produced the following results:

Very high condensed water content.

Only little few short distances.

I think that tells us a lot right there... The engine is not getting hot enough nor run long enough to keep the water in vapor state until it is expelled out the breather or road draft tube. Water is a byproduct of combustion.

And I bet a lot of Model As are the same.

[Dutie]

I'm with Y-Blockhead and his thoughts as well. Should a moisture issue be that evident in the oil you can sometimes see it in the filler tube as well [little bit of a whitish color]. just my 2 cents....Happy Motoring

[rfitzpatrick]

[QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;1805932]I think that tells us a lot right there... The engine is not getting hot enough nor run long enough to keep the water in vapor state until it is expelled out the breather or road draft tube. Water is a byproduct of combustion.

This is interesting -- what would be considered a safe period for driving in order to reduced/elimate all vapor/water in the oil? Never occured to me that water was a byproduct.
Thanks

[30 Closed Cab PU]

If not installed, may want to install a coolant gauge. If coolant is not going above about 120-130 degrees for awhile, water/condensation will not be dispelled. How long - not sure, but guess a good half hour or more with a properly warm/hot motor.


If not getting warm/hot enough may want to consider a thermostat with 2 or 3 extra 1/8 inch holes drilled in it The extra holes are for a coolant bypass. to keep cylinder 4 from possible overheating.


Some do not believe in a thermostat, but has worked well for me. Helps keep motor/coolant/oil temperature up, and condensation/water burned out of the oil. Has also improved my gas mileage very slightly.

[Werner]

I have taken many measurements to know the engine.

Without a hose thermostat, the engine water needs more than 10 miles of speedy driving until it reaches 70 ° C into the cylinder head.

With a hose thermostat, this temperature is already reached after 2 ml.

The oil temperature has reached in this time only 55 ° C after 10 ml. Only at 15 miles with more than 45 ml / h, about 70 ° were reached.

That's all very little; to evaporate the combustion condensates more than 95 ° C oil temperature are necessary.

Physics: Each time you burn 1 kg of fuel, you get 1 liter of water!

What does not evaporate through the exhaust condenses in the engine block.

[mike657894]

to remove condensate you would have to get the oil up to a temp it will steam the water out and keep it there. The oil has its own schedule of heating up because its not circulating around the cylinder. you can touch the pan and guess if its hot enough or you could send in a temp probe. I would guess a little while after coolant temp gets in operating range. Probably some 20 minute drives twice a month maybe some hour long drives.



As for analysis. Its probably money wasted. You could read up here at the ford barn and there are posts about condensate build up or fuel build up or what oil looks like with a coolant leak. For the model A your own visual and olfactory analysis coupled with a look at your driving and maintenance habits, will probably be rather accurate.


I would guess my car would show condensate and I should do a oil change before the winter to prevent problems. As I have not been driving my car enough.

[katy]

Engine oil blotter test

https://ezinearticles.com/?Motor-Oil...est&id=2897936

[Jeff/Illinois]

A lady we know that teaches in the same small town she lives in bought a new Ford Fusion several years ago and basically only drove the car back and forth to school, maybe 3/4ths of a mile. She had another car she drove longer distances. She wanted to keep the miles off of her new Ford.

After a couple of years the car started acting up, running poorly, etc. Still under warranty she took it to the dealership and they found the motor was all gunked up with white creamy foam and goo. The mechanic asked her 'how' she was using the car. With virtually no miles he said he had an idea before she told him.

They changed fluids and filters and told her not to drive like that anymore to get the car out and put some miles on it and get it good and hot.

She did and the car runs great now.

So I'd say the same goes for a Model A Ford and basically any car. Get them hot enough to burn out all the condensates avoid short trips.

[Jim Brierley]

The site suggested by Katy is great, all A'ers should read it. It gives a detailed way to check oil condition for all us "cheapskates". It reinforces what has been said above about water in the oil. I'm 40 miles away from our nearest club member, and use thermostats, so my driving conditions may be different than most A'ers.

[Railcarmover]

When we fired these up in the spring the dipsticks would show overfull..with water.Run them hard a few days and it clears,with no apparent damage.Water displaces oil but the 'yogurt' (what we called the creamy oil water mix) allows some lubrication factor.In a model A Id change it...but on construction equipment the cost is prohibitive..boil it out.

[Seth Swoboda]

Read this thread by my friend Frank Miller. He posted it on the V8 page a few years back but it's good information.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231478

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Have been told best to change oil shortly before storing to keep acids/water/contamination from sitting in the motor during storage. The above seems to indicate condensation over storage can be an issue since the stock A does not have an oil filter. So change in fall, in the spring drain/filter oil and put it back in?

[Synchro909]

I do trips longer than most in my Phaeton. It has a Mitchell O/D, insert bearings, down draft carb and a small cam. Only the middle main bearing is pressure fed. I have a temp gauge and oil pressure gauge fitted. I travel at a steady 50 mph (80 kph) while towing a camper that weighs about the same as the loaded car. It becomes obvious very quuickly that there is a correlation between speed, temp and oil pressure . An easy day is 250 miles for me so it is up to temp nearly all of the time. I have made a pressure relief valve for the oil feed to the main bearing and at 50mph, it runs 180 degrees and holds 26 psi on new oil. After a while, at the same temp and speed, the pressure starts to drop, 25, then 24 as the miles disappear under the front bumper and the oil deteriorates. I have arbitrarily set 23 psi as the pressure I change the oil. Using the cheapest 20/50 oil there is, I can pretty much rely on 3,500 miles between oil changes. As soon as I chnage it, the oil pressure returns to 26 psi. That is my oil analysis.
FWIW, When I am just doodling around town, I change at about 1000 - 1500 miles.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I do trips longer than most in my Phaeton. It has a Mitchell O/D, insert bearings, down draft carb and a small cam. Only the middle main bearing is pressure fed. I have a temp gauge and oil pressure gauge fitted. I travel at a steady 50 mph (80 kph) while towing a camper that weighs about the same as the loaded car. It becomes obvious very quuickly that there is a correlation between speed, temp and oil pressure . An easy day is 250 miles for me so it is up to temp nearly all of the time. I have made a pressure relief valve for the oil feed to the main bearing and at 50mph, it runs 180 degrees and holds 26 psi on new oil. After a while, at the same temp and speed, the pressure starts to drop, 25, then 24 as the miles disappear under the front bumper and the oil deteriorates. I have arbitrarily set 23 psi as the pressure I change the oil. Using the cheapest 20/50 oil there is, I can pretty much rely on 3,500 miles between oil changes. As soon as I chnage it, the oil pressure returns to 26 psi. That is my oil analysis.
FWIW, When I am just doodling around town, I change at about 1000 - 1500 miles.

I didn't see it mentioed. Do you run an oil filter?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

I didn't see it mentioed. Do you run an oil filter?

Yes. I should have mentioned that - sorry.
It is one of those full flow units that goes on the side cover.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

A lady we know that teaches in the same small town she lives in bought a new Ford Fusion several years ago and basically only drove the car back and forth to school, maybe 3/4ths of a mile. She had another car she drove longer distances. She wanted to keep the miles off of her new Ford.

After a couple of years the car started acting up, running poorly, etc. Still under warranty she took it to the dealership and they found the motor was all gunked up with white creamy foam and goo. The mechanic asked her 'how' she was using the car. With virtually no miles he said he had an idea before she told him.

They changed fluids and filters and told her not to drive like that anymore to get the car out and put some miles on it and get it good and hot.

She did and the car runs great now.

So I'd say the same goes for a Model A Ford and basically any car. Get them hot enough to burn out all the condensates avoid short trips.

Another reason for x miles or x months which ever comes first.
.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Yes. I should have mentioned that - sorry.
It is one of those full flow units that goes on the side cover.

Thanks for the info. I have the full flow filter also.

[daren007]

In my forty some years in aircraft maintenance both recip's and piston I have yet to see where a oil analysis alerted prior to a engine disaster. All they do is cause worry. Your best analysis is to cut the filter (not with a hack saw) if you have one or look in the bottom of your oil drain bucket.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by daren007

In my forty some years in aircraft maintenance both recip's and piston I have yet to see where a oil analysis alerted prior to a engine disaster. All they do is cause worry. Your best analysis is to cut the filter (not with a hack saw) if you have one or look in the bottom of your oil drain bucket.

When I 'lost' my rear main bearing there was very little 'evidence' in the oil I drained or full flow oil filter when I cut it open. All the pieces were nested in the oil dipper tray...

[Jeff/Illinois]

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Originally Posted by daren007

In my forty some years in aircraft maintenance both recip's and piston I have yet to see where a oil analysis alerted prior to a engine disaster. All they do is cause worry. Your best analysis is to cut the filter (not with a hack saw) if you have one or look in the bottom of your oil drain bucket.

That is exactly what the Ford garage I worked at many years ago would do, in analyzing engines especially GM trade in's. When Pontiac was having all that trouble with their nylon gear timing gears giving up the ghost, the garage did that a number of times to see what else the owners had been doing, what kind of abuse those engines may have had. That was real common in the late 60's early 70's Ponchos.