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Old 08-29-2010, 03:01 PM   #1
30cabriolet
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Default Tig welding a Model A

I just bought a new Miller dc tig welder to do the patch panels on my Cabriolet. Before I get started, I just have a few questions.

1. What type stainless filler rod should I use to repair cracks in a radiator shell?
2. Does anyone have a preference to the type of tungsten rod?
3. Does anyone have any do's and don'ts or tips for welding Henry steel? I plan on doing a lot of practicing, but I would rather avoid mistakes other have already made.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30cabriolet View Post
I just bought a new Miller dc tig welder to do the patch panels on my Cabriolet. Before I get started, I just have a few questions.

1. What type stainless filler rod should I use to repair cracks in a radiator shell?
2. Does anyone have a preference to the type of tungsten rod?
3. Does anyone have any do's and don'ts or tips for welding Henry steel? I plan on doing a lot of practicing, but I would rather avoid mistakes other have already made.
An alternative to backyard and second hand information is take an evening welding class and get it right the first time.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Now there's some good advice! Too many arm chair experts around who have never picked up a TIG torch.
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Old 08-29-2010, 05:13 PM   #4
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

I echo the sentiments of of 40 Deluxe & Pete!!

Practicing on your good Model A parts is not smart IMO. I will say that we use 1/16th tungsten and we have a small roll of the smallest Stainless MIG wire that we use to TIG with. I use a Lincoln Preceision TIG 225 so my setting would not apply to your machine even if I were using your machine and my machine at the same time.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

So nice to read about someone stepping up and buying a TIG machine! I spent 14 years TIG welding aluminum bodies, but never had the chance to TIG steel, it is something I've always wanted to do myself rather than farm it out. If you are a good gas welder TIG should come real easy.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

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"I spent 14 years TIG welding aluminum bodies," Cool~O! Want a job?


Just kidding Roadster62. A few ton of wire on this tub.

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Old 08-29-2010, 08:08 PM   #7
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

I have learned TIG welding on my own. I have a Miller 330 A/BP that can use more current then my main box can supply.

I am NOT anywhere near an expert on TIG welding. I have fumbled through it all and now do some really nice welds, most of the time. It did not help to have a 1962 vintage welder with the start run relay wired backwards making the foot pedal not work right at first.

For welding steel you need Thoriated Tungsten, the red ends if I remember correctly. You will want the .040 (smallest diameter? I am doing this from memory to late to go to the garage) for sheet metal, the next 2 sizes up depending on the current the unit can supply. The diameter of the Tungsten will limit the current that will flow.

You do not have AC, but if you did and wanted weld Al then you would need plain Tungsten.

Use the .040 for the sheet metal. You need to have clean metal. TIG is not very happy with rusty metal. Get the ER70s-6 rods in various sizes (I forget the size I use) and MIG welding wire works too. I have used some .024 mig wire for some welds. Practice some. When welding you will try to minimize the amount of filler you use. When you make your patch try to get a real tight fit. The Silicon and other trace elements in the rod help to move the contaminates out of the metal. You will find a very small amount filler rod will act like when you add flux to solder, the steel with start to flow better.
Hopefully you have a HF start and a foot pedal. You use the foot pedal to get the melt started and then back off a lot. You move the foot to control the heat. Push down to gain some heat and then back off to move the puddle or so. It works real nice. Take it easy as you work up to the edge and just let the puddle flow out to the edge as take the heat off.

I suggest that you get some metal working videos. There is one on making a fender and another called Shrinking Magic. They show the process of doing a few welds and then doing the hammer on dolly hits to correct the shrinkage.

For the shells, it is THIN metal. You need the 318 or 316 filler rod, the real thin stuff. They make it like .020 or something. I have a bunch of 1/16" 318 stainless and that is too thick. It takes too much heat to melt the rod and you just blow holes in the shell. I even tried to hammer it thinner. My local welding shop did not have any thin stainless rod in stock so I went to a local welder and he gave me a bunch of the real thin rod. That made a huge difference, but I have not had the time to improve my techniques. Keep in mind that every weld is a shrink and you much make corrections on the thin stainless.
Welding the stainless is only the start. Yo also have to level and remove all the scratches you have put into the shell. You will have a lot of time invested in doing it right. Not to mention you will find the expanding rubber wheel with trizact bands are a big time saver (see Eastwood).

Anyway, it is not rocket science. You just need to poke around the net some for the technical details. Once you settle in on some practice welds you will get comfy real quick and will be ready to conquer some major projects.

Last edited by Kevin in NJ; 08-29-2010 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

I've asked this question before but never got a good answer, will a TIG welder mess up electical things nearby? The car radio crackles when I turn into the driveway of the local TIG shop. Don't want you to fry a computor, TV or something else in the house.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Regarding the post by Kevin: I have in the past been able to use an XRF analizer to determine the alloy type of the Model A shell.The original shells that I have are a 304 type alloy. The have a typical average of 8% Nickel and No real % of Moly in the alloy make up. You say you have welded on the shells with a 318 alloy. This alloy have typical average of 5% Nickel and an average of 2.5 Moly as well as a higher % of chrome. I'm not a welding expert but I thought you would get a better result color wise and preformance wise for a cosmetic weld on a shell with the material that was the same as the shell it self. Have you ever repaired a shell with a 304 type alloy? If so was the result worse than your work with the 308 alloy? I have the interest in this for the fact that I buy and sort various stainless and other high alloy items for a living.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster62 View Post
I've asked this question before but never got a good answer, will a TIG welder mess up electical things nearby? The car radio crackles when I turn into the driveway of the local TIG shop. Don't want you to fry a computor, TV or something else in the house.
No, you will not "fry" any appliance in the house...If you have the high frequency in the welder on it can cause RFI (radio frequency interferance)
in the TV, stereo or intercoms. It is easier to get the arc started with the high frequency on but it is not essential for welding steel...The arc itself will also cause RFI.
The problem can be eliminated but can get expensive.
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Yikes! What a question. I'm with Pete on this one. Check out the local JC for an evening class where you can learn about alloys, materials, and what is happening inside the weld itself. Just being able to lay down a pretty bead doesn't cut it. Do you already have real schooling in gas and GMAW (MIG)? Hopefully you didn't put the cart before the horse. The control options on TIG welders are overwhelming. Whatever you have, there is always something better that you want, like soft start, wave choppers, pulse control, trigger stuff, foot controls, lithium pills for your sanity...
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:13 PM   #12
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

My very old unit has an arc gap that needs to be set properly. It also needs the cover on it. Icould see where operating with the wrong gap and no cover would cause problems. I was worried with my welder and never found it to cause a problem.

I test welded the rods I have and polish them out and when done was not able to see a color difference. That was why I have done some welding. I was more interested in making sure i had the correct materials. I am close to getting the body on the frame and may play with shells over winter. Practice shells are easy to find so ihave to make some very presentable repairs.
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

I'll go with the lithium pills if they don't taste bad......
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Old 08-30-2010, 12:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

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Old 08-30-2010, 10:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Wow! You posted a question that got a lot of intelligent and experienced responses from people willing to help you and the rest of us barners. There is something that I don't understand, though. As I consider welding a profession or at least a technical craft that displays itself with "pretty" welds and an understanding of metallurgy and fundamentals of the weld, why didn't you go for some education first? Personally, I wonder why you didn't go for some extreme education first. Don't take offense, please, this is just me talking. I wonder how many of us would take a welding job to a person who didn't have a sound education and experience in his field or for that matter, hire an airline pilot or a brain surgeon that are not tops in their field. You CAN get impressive and professional welds and the FASTEST way is to get some good manuals and ,as suggested, take some classes. Now, some posts are clearly offensive put-downs; that's the opposite of what I am doing. I want to see you enjoying the pleasure of excellent welding as fast as you can make that happen for yourself.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

I never said that I couldn't weld, I just stated that I bought a new DC Tig welder and then asked specific questions to welding the Model A. I am an A & P licensed technician and spend my days trying to keep airplanes flying. I have never put in a patch panel on a model A or welded a Model A radiator shell, so I asked to get a general starting point to proceed from. I don't just jump into a project without asking questions and planning; this is also where the practice comes in. How many people know the stainless make up of the shell? Not me, and there is more than one type of filler depending on the stainless. If I had a junk shell, I would just use pieces from that as filler. I tried to keep my questions simple to elicit varied responses, but I knew from the first answer that I didn't do a good job asking the question.
Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

[QUOTE I knew from the first answer that I didn't do a good job asking the question.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but it generated excellent responses that many of us have benifited from!
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:21 PM   #18
d.j. moordigian
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

30cab,

All good info, for the shell tack the edge first, then depending on the length of the crack
put more tacks, use 15-25 amps. Weld no more than 1/4 long, and if you get crap on the back side you are too hot. Take home " junk " from work for practice. Will your
machine weld AC, if so, practice on soda cans. Start off with .040 tungsten on light stuff. I weld .020-.025 SS and it's tough.

Dudley
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Tig welding a Model A

Your questions were fine, sometimes the answers get a bit off base.

As an A&E mechanic, you have had background in gas welding which will be a quite helpful to your picking up the TIG torch. I personally (also an A&E, AI) have found with repairs to any type of thin gauge material such as shells or body panels that it helps to clamp a thick copper plate to the back of the material before welding, making sure that you have full contact. In some cases, it helps to drill #30 holes and Cleco the plate to the joint. It is easy to fill those holes at the appropriate time.

The experts at the local welding supply shop can be quite helpful in finding the correct rod to match the color of the stainless. They probably will give you samples to try.

Practice first....... Gar Williams
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