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Old 12-28-2019, 06:45 AM   #1
Phil Gillespie
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Default 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

1939 Ford Coupe 6v with recently o/hauled generator. new brushes & armature and bearing. 6V positive earth. 2 brush generator.
Have had problem with existing voltage regulator, its the one with the blue cover. ie battery not charging as verified by ammeter. Have polorised when regulator changed.
Fitted a new 6V Regulator and still not charging. 6v 8A 10505 VR 600 made in USA.
Did the full field check by moving field wire to armature terminal at regulator.
Revs up to 1500 to 2000 andshowed high amp charge so generator is ok?
Voltage & current controls are bypassed but cut out is still in the circuit.

So the next step is to find a reliable Auto Electrician to set up the regulator correctly yes?
Cut in Volts Min: 6.1. Max 6.3v. VR at 70 F. Min: 7.0 Max: 7.3.
Amps: Min: 30 max 33.
Above figures from Ford Repair Manual Generating & Starting Systems 1933 to 1947.

As without the correct gear its a task to set up the VR correctly from what I see.
Phil NZ

Last edited by Phil Gillespie; 12-28-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:34 AM   #2
marko39
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

You state cutout is still in circut? I believe the voltage reg. replaces the cutout and you should not be using both. How many brushs does your gen have?
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:44 AM   #3
JSeery
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko39 View Post
You state cutout is still in circut? I believe the voltage reg. replaces the cutout and you should not be using both. How many brushs does your gen have?
He is most likely referring to one of the three relay coils in the voltage regulator, one of which is the cut-out.
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Last edited by JSeery; 12-28-2019 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:07 AM   #4
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
He is most likely referring to one of the three relay coils in the voltage regulator, one of which is the cut-out.
That is correct.
Phil NZ
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:14 AM   #5
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

First take cover off and see if cutout is closing when engine rpm is raised...
Is the regulator grounded...yes they need that for the cutout to work...
If cutout doesn´t work i would just return it...
The new blue regulators i got here lately had the insulators made from thermoplastics...and said 12v on them which they also was adjusted to regulate at ..not correct for any aplication...
And after adjusting them when they got up to working temp...the plastic insulators was so soft they just got out of adjustment...poorly made junk !
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Old 12-28-2019, 03:34 PM   #6
Darrell S
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

I was able to get a NOS regulator from barnfind08 here on the barn.
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Old 12-28-2019, 07:56 PM   #7
Charlie ny
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Phil,
If your present reg has a blue cover it is problematic at best. Most of what is sold now by too many vendors are junk. Take a moment and look at the windings on the 3 coils. Most regs today have far fewer windings than vintage regs....new ones are noticeably lighter in weight. I have a vintage reg....heavy....if you wish. Used but fully functional.
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:07 PM   #8
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

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Originally Posted by Charlie ny View Post
Phil,
If your present reg has a blue cover it is problematic at best. Most of what is sold now by too many vendors are junk. Take a moment and look at the windings on the 3 coils. Most regs today have far fewer windings than vintage regs....new ones are noticeably lighter in weight. I have a vintage reg....heavy....if you wish. Used but fully functional. Charlie ny

Yes it is the one with the blue cover.
But previous one fitted was an older type one, Blue Streak model.
Perhaps should concentrate on getting this one checked out as it was working ok. Will see how it goes but really appreciate the offer.
Phil
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
First take cover off and see if cutout is closing when engine rpm is raised...
Is the regulator grounded...yes they need that for the cutout to work...
If cutout doesn´t work i would just return it...
The new blue regulators i got here lately had the insulators made from thermoplastics...and said 12v on them which they also was adjusted to regulate at ..not correct for any aplication...
And after adjusting them when they got up to working temp...the plastic insulators was so soft they just got out of adjustment...poorly made junk !
Its grounded via securing screws to firewall. It is one with the blue cover.
Made in USA so thought it would be good.
Phil NZ
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

In the Corvette world, the solution to the currently available poor quality voltage regulators is to install a solid state unit in the original case. I did this several years ago and have not had a whisper of trouble since. I would think the same solution would work for those of you with 12 volt systems. I don't know if a viable 6 volt solid state unit exists; I think I'll poke around a couple of places. If such a unit is available, it's a simple conversion.
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:55 AM   #11
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Its frustrating to buy an item in good faith designed to do a specific job only to find it does not quite do the job. As with these new type Blue Top Voltage Regulators.
The solid state unit could be a good relaible option.
Thanks for suggestions and advice.
Phil NZ
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Old Henry in Utah posted his experiences with the charging circuit in his Ford a few years back. Here's a link:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ator&showall=1

I'll see if I can find more. Oops! Here's another one

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...tage+regulator
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

It's been 50 years or more since I worked with regulators but as I recall (and I may be wrong) that to check if the generator is working, briefly apply battery voltage to the field terminal on the generator while the engine is running for a Ford. (For a Chevy, apply a ground to the field coil.) If the generator is good, it will charge at a much higher voltage when the engine is revved up. This implies that the regulator isn't working properly. If it doesn't charge as the engine is revved, it implies that the generator isn't working.

The regulator has three coils. One, is the cut out coil and I never did find out how that one works but I was taught to never mess with that one. The second coil is the voltage control coil. It's function is to interrupt the field current if the voltage is too high by pulling against a spring to open a contact. As soon as the voltage drops to a desired level, the contact closes again. This contact is constantly fluttering. Voltage is adjusted by gently increasing or decreasing the spring force by either turning a screw or bending an arm that holds one end of the spring. The third coil. is the current limiting coil. This coil has a much heavier wire than the voltage control coil and all of the charging current passes through it. If the actual current is two high (such as may be the case if there's a short circuit somewhere in the car or too much current is required due to too many added lights or other accessories, it will also interrupt the field current thus protecting the generator from being over loaded.

Having said all this you might be well off cleaning (lightly filing) the voltage coil contacts in an older regulator than plunging into the depths of a newer, more cheaply made regulator.

This is all in my most humble opinion. Good luck!
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:09 AM   #14
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteVS View Post
It's been 50 years or more since I worked with regulators but as I recall (and I may be wrong) that to check if the generator is working, briefly apply battery voltage to the field terminal on the generator while the engine is running for a Ford. (For a Chevy, apply a ground to the field coil.) If the generator is good, it will charge at a much higher voltage when the engine is revved up. This implies that the regulator isn't working properly. If it doesn't charge as the engine is revved, it implies that the generator isn't working.

The regulator has three coils. One, is the cut out coil and I never did find out how that one works but I was taught to never mess with that one. The second coil is the voltage control coil. It's function is to interrupt the field current if the voltage is too high by pulling against a spring to open a contact. As soon as the voltage drops to a desired level, the contact closes again. This contact is constantly fluttering. Voltage is adjusted by gently increasing or decreasing the spring force by either turning a screw or bending an arm that holds one end of the spring. The third coil. is the current limiting coil. This coil has a much heavier wire than the voltage control coil and all of the charging current passes through it. If the actual current is two high (such as may be the case if there's a short circuit somewhere in the car or too much current is required due to too many added lights or other accessories, it will also interrupt the field current thus protecting the generator from being over loaded.

Having said all this you might be well off cleaning (lightly filing) the voltage coil contacts in an older regulator than plunging into the depths of a newer, more cheaply made regulator.

This is all in my most humble opinion. Good luck!
Appreciate all your helpful information. Will process this and hopefully get a result as at this stage generator appears ok. just the regulator to be sorted.
Phil NZ
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:11 AM   #15
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteVS View Post
Old Henry in Utah posted his experiences with the charging circuit in his Ford a few years back. Here's a link:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ator&showall=1

I'll see if I can find more. Oops! Here's another one

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...tage+regulator
Thanks for bringing this to the surface. So very good info is contained here.
Phil NZ
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Start by taking the cover off...rev up the engine to see if the cutout closes as it should.
Adjusting Voltage and current is a fairly easy task...but if the cutout ain´t working from start it may be poorly riveted resistors wiring etc...so as i said earlier if cutout aint working from start return to seller and start with a new unit...instead of messing with it affecting the warranty.
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Old 12-29-2019, 09:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Hi Phil, you have already described how you tested the generator and cut out in post # 1 which is the only correct way to test the generator and the cut out. Some other suggestions are not quite correct so don't make any connections to the reg. field terminal as the reg. could be damaged. So your generator is OK and the cut out contacts close with the field wire moved over to the armature terminal on the reg. and engine revs up to about 2000 RPM. That indicates to me that the voltage regulator contacts and or the current regulator contacts are possibly dirty or tarnished and not passing any current for the field circuit. You could try cleaning both those sets of contacts with some strong paper sprayed with contact cleaner or a solvent. DONT use a points file or emery cloth. Blow the contacts dry with a little compressed air while holding the contacts open. The current regulator is the centre unit which limits the generators SAFE MAXIMUM current output which on your gen is about 33 amps. The voltage regulator is on the opposite end to the cut out. So just clean the contacts and replace the field wire back onto its terminal and start the engine and give it a test. DONT adjust or bend anything on the relays yet. To set these regulators up correctly some expertise is required and an analog test meter set which includes a voltmeter, ammeter and a rheostat. Digital multimeters will not cut it at all. Other things could be wrong with the volt and current relays like open circuit windings etc but don't worry about that now. USA BLUE STREAK regulators are normally good quality and probably better than the one you have on now. Original FORD regs are the best quality. I know many people try to make suggestions about how to faultfind and repair charging systems but unfortunately MOST give poor or incorrect information which can only cause more confusion. Report back what you find. Regards. Kevin.
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:01 AM   #18
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koates View Post
Hi Phil, you have already described how you tested the generator and cut out in post # 1 which is the only correct way to test the generator and the cut out. Some other suggestions are not quite correct so don't make any connections to the reg. field terminal as the reg. could be damaged. So your generator is OK and the cut out contacts close with the field wire moved over to the armature terminal on the reg. and engine revs up to about 2000 RPM. That indicates to me that the voltage regulator contacts and or the current regulator contacts are possibly dirty or tarnished and not passing any current for the field circuit. You could try cleaning both those sets of contacts with some strong paper sprayed with contact cleaner or a solvent. DONT use a points file or emery cloth. Blow the contacts dry with a little compressed air while holding the contacts open. The current regulator is the centre unit which limits the generators SAFE MAXIMUM current output which on your gen is about 33 amps. The voltage regulator is on the opposite end to the cut out. So just clean the contacts and replace the field wire back onto its terminal and start the engine and give it a test. DONT adjust or bend anything on the relays yet. To set these regulators up correctly some expertise is required and an analog test meter set which includes a voltmeter, ammeter and a rheostat. Digital multimeters will not cut it at all. Other things could be wrong with the volt and current relays like open circuit windings etc but don't worry about that now. USA BLUE STREAK regulators are normally good quality and probably better than the one you have on now. Original FORD regs are the best quality. I know many people try to make suggestions about how to faultfind and repair charging systems but unfortunately MOST give poor or incorrect information which can only cause more confusion. Report back what you find. Regards. Kevin.
Hi Kevin,
The checking method was as supplied by yourself previously. I am happy generator is ok. Have cleaned up points but still no go. So think it needs setting up. Plan on going to a local auto electrician with ties to Vintage Car Club who can understand and set up correctly.
This regulator, the Blue Streak one was operating fine then no charge registered on car ammeter. Fitted the replacement new one with same results.Will go with getting Blue Streak unit operational and other Blue Top one operational as a back up.
Thanks,
Phil NZ
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

I did a little poking around and came up with the following : For 12 volt systems, the Duralast VR715 is the ticket - https://www.autozone.com/batteries-s...vr715/130005_0. It is what I used in my Corvette. As to 6 volt, there is a unit available from an English company called "Clover". However, it is priced at $110, and is a finished product for use on 6 volt Jaguars. I would expect there is a cheaper component only, but I haven't found it yet
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: 6v voltage regulator needs attention.

When I had my generator rebuilt last month I brought the regulator to them also.
FWIW


Chip's Auto
E Hartford. CT


Paul in CT
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